Indian Special Forces (archived)

[rkhanna]

For fucks sake at least we should provide decent goggles,watch, gloves and knee pads to our soldiers.
Why is there so much incompetence in gear procurement I don't understand.

Bro - GOI websites look like they were made in the early 90's. You are asking for the moon

 

[ezsasa]

For fucks sake at least we should provide decent goggles,watch, gloves and knee pads to our soldiers.
Why is there so much incompetence in gear procurement I don't understand.

All these SF in earlier pics look that way because they are part of NATO. Little to do with individual country’s choice.

As part of NATO, whatever lessons they learnt in Iraq and Afghanistan is being disseminated among rest of NATO members. Hence the standardisation is seen across multiple countries.

We on the other hand have not participated in a proper war scenario since Kargil. More the wars, more the lessons learnt. It’s a cyclic progression.

 

[rkhanna]

Two things you have mentioned.I will mention the rest.

Comm sets
Nvgs
Optics
Clothing and boots
First aid

First AID!!! A KEY frigging piece of kit. today out men are equipped with the bare minimum. Not even quickclot.

I would like to add. Load Bearing vests for our troops. QRT/Urban troops tend to wear a different kind of vest from LRRP soldiers (only refering to SOF soldiers here). You see our SF soldiers (including NSG!) wearing these bulky vests that have large roomy magazine pouches with a flap over them. in an Urban CT senario with quick reaction how fast is that magazine change going to be? Go back a couple of pages and look at the vest of most of the western CT units. The magazine pouches are made for the exact size of the magazine and grip them for easy access and fast change.

Old example - story about the current CO of INS Karna Marcos Base. in the 00s he was on a COIN op in Kashmir. Soldiers were caught in open ground and got ambushed. He Jumped over the wall to protect the soldiers and took a full blast of an AK discharge right to the chest. 7 bullets. One of the bullets hit his grenade and dislocated the pin. Ironically before deployment he ditched is standard MARCOS vest for a vest that he was given as a gift from a Foreign operator on a cross training exercise. The Grenade was in one of these super tight compartments and hence didnt explode. If it was his MARCOS vest he would be dead.

Secondly - Every soldier seems to have his vest based on his own preference. if a soldier goes down in the dark and somebody has to administer first aid on him - imagine the time he is going to waste first finding the kit from all the pockets and them using them. SOP should be such that I can touch somebody elses vest blind and get what i want because i know what is where.

One of the russian pics showed Strobe Lights. As NVGs and C/UAV's and CAS (attach helo's) start getting inducted into our forces our soldiers need to get used to operating with Strobe Lights. Night time IFF is going to be critical.

Gun Slings - The Brits/Americans/Israelis have spent a considerable amount of time experimenting and working up various gun slings to improve efficiency decade after decade. You have 2 point slings, 3 point slings, etc etc.

The smallest DETAIL can be the difference between life and death.

Added later another one- Suppressed Weapons. the USMC Facebook page had a great article on issuing Suppressed weapons to everyone. Sustained use demonstrated that there was a slight increase accuracy while retaining stopping par. Added benefit was that soldiers no longer suffered from shattered ear drums

 

[rkhanna]

All these SF in earlier pics look that way because they are part of NATO. Little to do with individual country’s choice.

As part of NATO, whatever lessons they learnt in Iraq and Afghanistan is being disseminated among rest of NATO members. Hence the standardisation is seen across multiple countries.

We on the other hand have not participated in a proper war scenario since Kargil. More the wars, more the lessons learnt. It’s a cyclic progression.

How many lessons from Kargil have been implemented? From 26/11?

Sadly in India we put a greater thrust on Jugaad than sustained innovation.

We have now been cross training with the Americans and a number of SOF forces for almost a decade. Plenty of time to learn, adapt ourselves.

 

[rkhanna]

Btw here is an article with reference to the MARCOS officer above

One hell of an operator.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/a-s...est-how-a-navy-officer-defeated-death-1432239

 

[ezsasa]

We have now been cross training with the Americans and a number of SOF forces for almost a decade. Plenty of time to learn, adapt ourselves.

It’s not just about cross training, western approach to upgrades is rather scientific. And dissemination of lessons learnt is also thru proper channels.

And also private players play a major role in ensuring their forces select the right gear, atleast provide multiple options to choose from. Check out YouTube videos in shotshow 2018.

In our case opinion of a General has more weight than proper scientific reasoning. More over I doubt if there is a scientific research involved in selection of any our gear.

Basically what I am saying, I don’t see any light at the end of this tunnel. I don’t foresee any improvement in gear in next 10 years.

 

[rkhanna]

It’s not just about cross training, western approach to upgrades is rather scientific. And dissemination of lessons learnt is also thru proper channels.

And also private players play a major role in ensuring their forces select the right gear, atleast provide multiple options to choose from. Check out YouTube videos in shotshow 2018.

In our case opinion of a General has more weight than proper scientific reasoning. More over I doubt if there is a scientific research involved in selection of any our gear.

Basically what I am saying, I don’t see any light at the end of this tunnel. I don’t foresee any improvement in gear in next 10 years.

i agree with the last statment of yours. it inherently comes down to culture. But i disagree that is Western Vs Us. EVRYBODY - the Malaysians, the Brazilians, South Africans, Russians, Japanese, hell even the pakis, all use simple tools you would learn in undergraduate business school to implement in a cost and life saving procurement process.

The Problem is a deep sunken Indian Systematic Rot in the Indian Psyche across Civil Society and Government. Rubbish is reflected in our movies and culture as much as in our industry.

Anyways Frustration rant off/ This is getting Off Topic

 

[Haldiram]

And also private players play a major role in ensuring their forces select the right gear, atleast provide multiple options to choose from.

...except in the case of the Dragonskin armor, which was made by a smaller company, which was the better product, but it got rejected in favor of a bulletproof vest made by a more entrenched company. Same happened with the F35 contract. Lokheed Martin and Northrop Grumman both submitted their prototypes. The latter was of a better quality but LM won the contract. Now they're trying to sell that shit to other countries.

Most of their weapons are really good, no doubt. But the free market model has its own flaws. Our centralized, state-controlled model of testing and approval is one of the best. The Army does all sorts of tests in all climates. If a weapon is found to be lacking, they import. The Army, during its test of Arjun ran the tank 5 miles at a stretch in reverse gear, until the tracks broke. We have a problem with indigenous production, but it does not affect our capability. We import what is legitimately required to fill capability gaps. (This does not apply to IAF. They import as a hobby)

 

[rone]

Comparing with all other spec ops number and our special op number, we have para sf marcos , garud, etc in military it self like spg,nsg, etc in para military sector total number will be consoderly huge more over our sf mainly relay on tactics and skills not like western counter parts yes tech savy have their own positive point but the irony is 17 Russian spec ops faced 300 isis terrorist is standard fit out not like that we see in the pics if we google u get the videos and interview with them in gear, also most of time we heard that the tech getting malfunction in punishing environment so I think we need modernization but not like western fan boy show off


Most of swat And western coin ops team gear in high savy is kind of psychologycal warfare like russian spec ops or kgb is a bad dream for Americans,

 

[rkhanna]

Comparing with all other spec ops number and our special op number, we have para sf marcos , garud, etc in military it self like spg,nsg, etc in para military sector total number will be consoderly huge more over our sf mainly relay on tactics and skills not like western counter parts yes tech savy have their own positive point but the irony is 17 Russian spec ops faced 300 isis terrorist is standard fit out not like that we see in the pics if we google u get the videos and interview with them in gear, also most of time we heard that the tech getting malfunction in punishing environment so I think we need modernization but not like western fan boy show off


Most of swat And western coin ops team gear in high savy is kind of psychologycal warfare like russian spec ops or kgb is a bad dream for Americans,

Sir - We have a large military. Any modernization has to be done in phases. There has to be logic and method to the way we do it. So far almost 2 decades since Kargil - what has been the level of our modernization? (Again since SF thread only takling about SF) - All I see is adhoc jugaad except with the NSG.

. Our centralized, state-controlled model of testing and approval is one of the best. The Army does all sorts of tests in all climates. If a weapon is found to be lacking, they import. The Army, during its test of Arjun ran the tank 5 miles at a stretch in reverse gear,

Whole heartedly disagree with this statement. I know some of the men who have tested the Arjun. The Arjun beat the T-90S most of the time hands down. The T-90S has an unusable missle system, non working sights and thermals, Non working aux system. Hell it has MORE issues than the Arjun and yet more tanks are acquired. If we had decided to (over a couple of decades) upgrade entire infrastructure - road/bridges/railways/ Mine layers other vehicles / Sensors / Missle development etc etc / imagine the boost to the economy. Anyways this bit is off topic

 

[Mikesingh]

Whole heartedly disagree with this statement. I know some of the men who have tested the Arjun. The Arjun beat the T-90S most of the time hands down. The T-90S has an unusable missle system, non working sights and thermals, Non working aux system. Hell it has MORE issues than the Arjun and yet more tanks are acquired. If we had decided to (over a couple of decades) upgrade entire infrastructure - road/bridges/railways/ Mine layers other vehicles / Sensors / Missle development etc etc / imagine the boost to the economy. Anyways this bit is off topic

You forgot to add that both our T-90MS taking part in the Biathlon last year crapped out and were disqualified due to various mechanical problems. Yep! BOTH tanks!!

We cut a sorry figure in front of Russia, Belarus, Kazakhstan and especially CHINA which raced to the final round!! Excuse was that it was due to poor maintenance!! Really? WTF was a whole frikkin EME workshop that accompanied the tanks for maintenance doing out there?? Poodle faking? Nope! It was the quality of the tanks that sank us.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

There are 2 things that a Army with brains does.

One is to innovate ie Israeli style.

Two is to copy ie Chinese style.

But sadly we are the 3rd which is no style or the partly jugaad style.

Almost 30 freaking years in Kashmirs urban conflicts and no one in the IA came up with an idea to arm RR with ballistic shields...ya i have seen very few pics coming up lately.

What sort of engineering do u need to know to make that? And what are the costs?..I bet it is much cheaper that what the GOC or Brig Co will spend on modifying his gypsy.

Same goes for Assualt rifles,lmgs,optics.These are not a big deal.

And what about boots..the standard Army boot is a piece of shit.

And we are in the global top 10 in manufacturing clothing and leather industry if i am not wrong.

We Indians lack innovation and execution.

If it was some next gen nvg or a super sniper rifle i would have not complained but such basic things also we cannot manufacturer.

Look at the SF vehicle Gypsy for 10 para..and we are a nation which exports Scorpio and Safari all around the world and again we are a global top 10 in manufacturing cars.

In Military academies the word improvise is used i think they need to change the syllabus and use the word innovate more.

 

[Doc Mozart]

I was going to post this.

This is our next uniform if rumours are to be believed.

After NSG Para has started using them and can be confirmed from the Indonesian exercise pics i posted.

Is that Digi Cam? Not to play a spoil sport but i wished they had gone the multicam based on woodland colours way, but i may be biased so there's that :biggrin2:. Anyways I think one of the most critical piece of equipment missing for our troops is some basic freaking ear protection. Seriously though we take the ability to hear for granted for what 50 dollars or maybe less than that worth of mil-spec ear protection for our troops. The same thing goes for the ballistic eye goggles. Need a lot more work in this area tbh. Also a bit off topic question, are we still using those browning hi - power's as the standard side-arm in the army? Rarely i see soldiers heck even SF sans the Garuds, using any kind of side-arms with the usual thigh holster. I think this dept should also see some modernization. Glocks or the recent IWI Massada could be considered, just saying.

 

[aditya g]

These quarter zips used during the Chindits expedition should become the primary uniform for our forces.

View attachment 23545 View attachment 23546 View attachment 23547 View attachment 23548 View attachment 23549

Who dafuq are these "Lion Hearts" boys ................

 

[Screambowl]

For fucks sake at least we should provide decent goggles,watch, gloves and knee pads to our soldiers.
Why is there so much incompetence in gear procurement I don't understand.

It helps a soldier only till he is shooting and at a distance from En, But when it comes to hand to hand combat then it's just the khukhri and training. One can't carry out ops with all that gear on during hand to hand combat.
Only good for surgical strikes not cross LC raids.

 

[Doc Mozart]

It helps a soldier only till he is shooting and at a distance from En, But when it comes to hand to hand combat then it's just the khukhri and training. One can't carry out ops with all that gear on during hand to hand combat.
Only good for surgical strikes not cross LC raids.

Okay so lemme get this straight, according to you wearing ballistic eye goggles to protect one's eye (i.e a very important body part from potentially harmful fragments or splinters), a mil grade precise chronograph watch, leather gloves (for hand protection and better grip) and knee pads (for the protection of joints) and if i may add mil grade ear protection (to prevent our troops ear drums from getting permanently damaged especially at a time when we are going to equip them with battle rifles which are hella loud) which all in all weigh more or less than half a kg would be extremely heavy and tiring for carrying out hand to hand fights which i don't need to tell you happen way way rarely then you'd like to think, completely futile as they'd restrict a soldier's mobility during combat? You really can't be serious, are you?

 

[Screambowl]

i don't need to tell you happen way way rarely then you'd like to think, completely futile as they'd restrict a soldier's mobility during combat? You really can't be serious, are you?

I am serious and yes they do, it's not about weight but freedom of motion

 

[aystle]

There are 2 things that a Army with brains does.

One is to innovate ie Israeli style.

Two is to copy ie Chinese style.

But sadly we are the 3rd which is no style or the partly jugaad style.

Almost 30 freaking years in Kashmirs urban conflicts and no one in the IA came up with an idea to arm RR with ballistic shields...ya i have seen very few pics coming up lately.

What sort of engineering do u need to know to make that? And what are the costs?..I bet it is much cheaper that what the GOC or Brig Co will spend on modifying his gypsy.

Same goes for Assualt rifles,lmgs,optics.These are not a big deal.

And what about boots..the standard Army boot is a piece of shit.

And we are in the global top 10 in manufacturing clothing and leather industry if i am not wrong.

We Indians lack innovation and execution.

If it was some next gen nvg or a super sniper rifle i would have not complained but such basic things also we cannot manufacturer.

Look at the SF vehicle Gypsy for 10 para..and we are a nation which exports Scorpio and Safari all around the world and again we are a global top 10 in manufacturing cars.

In Military academies the word improvise is used i think they need to change the syllabus and use the word innovate more.

The 'Chalta hai' mentality..........

 

[Doc Mozart]

I am serious and yes they do, it's not about weight but freedom of motion

Compare the number of incidents involving hand to hand fights during combat in modern times with the number of soldiers killed, seriously injured or permanently disabled due to conventional weapons, fragments, splinters etc and you'd get your answer as to how common it is. And to answer your 2nd part, if you would've said that carrying heavier combat loads, ammo, supplies, heavier BPJ etc, affect a soldier's freedom of motion during combat i would've agreed with you but saying that the minor stuff like Bhumihar stated which are the absolute basic necessities for any front line combatant anywhere in the world, affects that freedom of motion, when it has absolutely zilch to do with it and more to do with the fact that they provide protection to said body parts which are required for high levels of mobility and sense of direction, then i'm sorry to say that you are seriously mistaken.

 

[Screambowl]

would've said that carrying heavier combat loads, ammo, supplies, heavier BPJ etc, affect a soldier's freedom of motion during combat i would've agreed

That is exactly what I have said.

I distinguished the nature of operation in my previous post. And when the need comes they may remove the gear before actually going for hunt. This is why a lot of the time you would notice Para SF with just a head scarf.