Indian Sniper Equipment & Tactics

[armyofhind]

Whether a soldier operates solo or as part of a group is completely irrelevant. The only think that is relevant is the rifle itself.

To put it differently, the question is what the rifle is designed to do or is capable of doing, not how one chooses to use a rifle.

Vast majority of Sniper rifles are bolt action versus DMR's being semi auto.

Barrel lengths in sniper rifles are greater.

You wont find DMRs in calibres other than 7.62mm NATO and 5.56mm NATO.
This isnt the case with Sniper Rifles.

Sniper Rifles have precision manufactured, accurized barrels.

Cost of sniper rifles is greater.

A DMR like the Dragunov has an option to even mount a bayonet so the soldier using it can even conduct a close-in assault. You wont ever find such a thing on a sniper rifle.

 

[pmaitra]

Vast majority of Sniper rifles are bolt action versus DMR's being semi auto.

SVD Dragunov (example of a semi-auto sniper rifle)

Barrel lengths in sniper rifles are greater.

VSS Vintorez (example of a short-barreled sniper rifle)

You wont find DMRs in calibres other than 7.62mm NATO and 5.56mm NATO.
This isnt the case with Sniper Rifles.

Sniper Rifles have precision manufactured, accurized barrels.

Cost of sniper rifles is greater.

A DMR like the Dragunov has an option to even mount a bayonet so the soldier using it can even conduct a close-in assault. You wont ever find such a thing on a sniper rifle.

A DMR like Dragunov? No, a Sniper rifle like Dragunov. That is more accurate.

7.62 NATO is 7.62x51, while Dragunov uses 7.62x54R. Not the same thing. Besides, I don't get your point.

You can mount a scope on an FN-FAL and call it a sniper rifle, but it is still an assault rifle. You can mount a bayonet on a Dragunov and call it an assault rifle, but it is still a sniper rifle.

At the end of the day, I'll go with the manufacturer:

Source: https://kalashnikov.com/en/product/firearms/mle/

 

[armyofhind]

VSS Vintorez (example of a short-barreled sniper rifle

VSS Vintorez isnt a sniper rifle. Its a rifle made for special applications having high precision with complete suppression.
A firing range of 400m doesnt make it a sniper rifle. You can shoot at that range with an M4 as well.

SVD Dragunov (example of a semi-auto sniper rifle

A DMR like Dragunov? No, a Sniper rifle like Dragunov. That is more accurate

You can be obstinate on the point that SVD is a sniper rifle but the fact remains that only Russian sources claim it as so. And if it was that effective a Sniper Weapon, there wouldnt be any need to develop the SV-98.
You cannot shoot out beyond 800m accurately and with precision with an SVD.
Good luck with getting 1 MOA (common standard used for judging sniper rifles - 1MOA is the specification given for the new Indian Army RFI as well) accuracy with an SVD at 1000mtrs or beyond.

7.62 NATO is 7.62x51, while Dragunov uses 7.62x54R. Not the same thing. Besides, I don't get your point.

You need to know first why 7.62x51mm and 7.62x54mmR isnt the same thing. Then you'll understand why its essentially the same thing.

Russians made a different cartridge so it wouldnt be compatible with other weapons. Thats one.
The second reason for the increase in length of the Russian cartridge casing by 3mm as compared to the NATO cartridge is because the propellant powder in Russian cartridges doesnt have as much energy as the propellant used in NATO cartridges. Hence more propellant is needed to achieve similar performance.

The ballistic performance of 7.62x51mm and 7.62x54mm rimmed cartridge is similar.
In fact, terminal ballistics performance of the NATO cartridge has been deemed superior in terms of energy transferred to target.

 

[pmaitra]

You can be obstinate on the point that SVD is a sniper rifle but the fact remains that only Russian sources claim it as so.

Wrong.

1. You should write a letter to Izhmash, the OEM, and tell them that they are being "obstinate."
2. Russian and non-Russian sources claim so.
3. It is not merely a Russian source, but Izhmash, the OEM claims so.
4. I have provided enough references. Now it is up to you. Call it a sword or a mace, if that makes you feel better.

The rest of the post is digression.

 

[armyofhind]

Wrong.

1. You should write a letter to Izhmash, the OEM, and tell them that they are being "obstinate."
2. Russian and non-Russian sources claim so.
3. It is not merely a Russian source, but Izhmash, the OEM claims so.
4. I have provided enough references. Now it is up to you. Call it a sword or a mace, if that makes you feel better.

The rest of the post is digression.

1. I dont need to. What a marketing brochure claims is hardly the grounds for performance in the field.
2. I dont think any non russian source claims the SVD to be sniper rifle.
3. Izhmash is Russian isnt it?
4. You have provided only the reference of Izhmash.

The rest of the post might be digression to you if you werent able to find a counter. The fact remains that if the SVD performed that well in a Sniper's role, there wouldnt be any need for a new RFI by the Indian Army, nor for the Russians to develop a separate sniper rifle.

 

[pmaitra]

1. I dont need to. What a marketing brochure claims is hardly the grounds for performance in the field.
2. I dont think any non russian source claims the SVD to be sniper rifle.
3. Izhmash is Russian isnt it?
4. You have provided only the reference of Izhmash.

The rest of the post might be digression to you if you werent able to find a counter. The fact remains that if the SVD performed that well in a Sniper's role, there wouldnt be any need for a new RFI by the Indian Army, nor for the Russians to develop a separate sniper rifle.

Go back and read all my posts so far. Can't spoon-feed you. I have provided three references. In all of your posts, you have provided ZERO references.

 

[armyofhind]

Go back and read all my posts so far. Can't spoon-feed you. I have provided three references. In all of your posts, you have provided ZERO references.

I didnt provide references because I thought what I was writing would be lucid enough.
Anyway, if you need references -
Performance comparison between 7.62 NATO and 7.62x54mmR

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...e-full-power-calibers-018-7-62x54mmr-russian/

citing the 1.5 -2.0 MOA accuracy of SVD and not being a true sniper rifle
http://www.snipercentral.com/russian-dragunov-svd-2/

More on the performance of the 7.62x54mmR albeit when fired from an M1 Garand
http://www.m1-garand-rifle.com/7.62x54mmR/

 

[sthf]

No thanks. As I said you need to closely look up what a modern day .338 rifle is bringing to the table.

The nation is not going broke and can afford 5000 sniper rifles. Can we stop pretending that it is.

Remington won the US army PSR competition at $15,000 each complete with optics and ammunition was not the cheapest. Read up on the contenders to understand what I was saying.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precision_Sniper_Rifle

Now I think a country with 4th highest defence budget I.e. $50 BILLION can buy the much needed platoon or battalion level sniper rifles worth $75 million and not file for bankruptcy

 

[pmaitra]

I didnt provide references because I thought what I was writing would be lucid enough.
Anyway, if you need references -
Performance comparison between 7.62 NATO and 7.62x54mmR

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...e-full-power-calibers-018-7-62x54mmr-russian/

citing the 1.5 -2.0 MOA accuracy of SVD and not being a true sniper rifle
http://www.snipercentral.com/russian-dragunov-svd-2/

More on the performance of the 7.62x54mmR albeit when fired from an M1 Garand
http://www.m1-garand-rifle.com/7.62x54mmR/

1. First link: Does not say anything about the Dragunov not being a sniper rifle.
2. Second link: I am the one who posted that in an earlier post. Thank you.
3. Third link: It says, ". . . sniper rifles such as the Dragunov." Thank you again.

So, two of the three links actually support my position.

 

[armyofhind]

1. First link: Does not say anything about the Dragunov not being a sniper rifle.
2. Second link: I am the one who posted that in an earlier post. Thank you.
3. Third link: It says, ". . . sniper rifles such as the Dragunov." Thank you again.

So, two of the three links actually support my position.

Read the links carefully and see what they say about sub 2 MOA accuracy of the SVD and the Dragunov not being a sniper rifle by today's standards.
You are quoting selective text from the pages which looks akin to clutching at straws.However if semantics is all you're concerned with, here is a source.
http://modernfirearms.net/sniper/sniper-rifles/rus/dragunov-svd-e.html

"Dragunov SVD wasdesigned not as a "standard" sniper rifle in its Western meaning of theterm. In fact, main role ofthe SVD in Soviet / Russian Army is to extend effective range of fireof every infantry squad up to about 600 meters and to provide specialfiresupport. SVD is a lightweight and quite accurate (for it's class)rifle, cabable of semi-auto fire."


The link which you posted itself says that the SVD isnt a true sniper rifle by today's standards. So it does far from strengthening your position my friend.

The fact still remains and I'm quoting it the third time here, to which you havent given an answer yet, is that if the SVD was so accurate and performed well in the sniping role, what was the need for the Russians to develop another weapon around the same period of service and what was the need for the Indian Army to order a separate class of weapon.
Also, what was the need for Para SF to use another weapon in the Sniping role.
What was the need for MARCOS to order the SAKO Tikka.

 

[SofaAloo]

That's a load of crock. If ww2 era weapons would be working fine then their is no need for replacing the sterlings in service.

It's not just about the bolt action but tonnes of factors are also to be kept in mind. Same goes for the actual real life results not just "brochure specs". Look up some videos on YouTube to understand what I am saying. You can start with Larry Vickers' channel.

Hell Lee Enfield wasn't even the best rifle during WW2.

Sent from my SM-G600FY using Tapatalk

Strange, alot of historians have agreed on hundreds of thousands of accounts that the Lee Enfield was perhaps the best bolt action rifle of its time, with match grade samples filling in the role of sniping as well as being a reliable general service weapon.

It is still in use today in India which I've seen with local police forces (not in a military capacity like the para-mil style charade called the CISF)

Bolt action weapons are as reliable as they come due to less working parts.

 

[SofaAloo]

Read the links carefully and see what they say about sub 2 MOA accuracy of the SVD and the Dragunov not being a sniper rifle by today's standards.
You are quoting selective text from the pages which looks akin to clutching at straws.However if semantics is all you're concerned with, here is a source.
http://modernfirearms.net/sniper/sniper-rifles/rus/dragunov-svd-e.html

"Dragunov SVD wasdesigned not as a "standard" sniper rifle in its Western meaning of theterm. In fact, main role ofthe SVD in Soviet / Russian Army is to extend effective range of fireof every infantry squad up to about 600 meters and to provide specialfiresupport. SVD is a lightweight and quite accurate (for it's class)rifle, cabable of semi-auto fire."


The link which you posted itself says that the SVD isnt a true sniper rifle by today's standards. So it does far from strengthening your position my friend.

The fact still remains and I'm quoting it the third time here, to which you havent given an answer yet, is that if the SVD was so accurate and performed well in the sniping role, what was the need for the Russians to develop another weapon around the same period of service and what was the need for the Indian Army to order a separate class of weapon.
Also, what was the need for Para SF to use another weapon in the Sniping role.
What was the need for MARCOS to order the SAKO Tikka.

The SVD Dragunov was designed from scratch as a designated marksman weapon, never a general issue assault weapon, and please don't cite "by todays standards" as an excuse for it not being a capable weapon, it was produced over 50 years ago and variants as well as improvements are still going strong.

You really also shouldn't compare the Russian Army's requirements to the Indian Army, it's not quite the same thing, they're main design requirements are massively different with regards to the previous 40 years aka the Cold War?

 

[SofaAloo]

I didnt provide references because I thought what I was writing would be lucid enough.
Anyway, if you need references -
Performance comparison between 7.62 NATO and 7.62x54mmR

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...e-full-power-calibers-018-7-62x54mmr-russian/

citing the 1.5 -2.0 MOA accuracy of SVD and not being a true sniper rifle
http://www.snipercentral.com/russian-dragunov-svd-2/

More on the performance of the 7.62x54mmR albeit when fired from an M1 Garand
http://www.m1-garand-rifle.com/7.62x54mmR/

"When fired from an M1-Garand", well what do you know, a weapon that was phased out of general issue with US forces since long before the Vietnam war, although remaining in limited service, makes for a worthy comparison, don't blame the ammunition, blame the weapon!

 

[SofaAloo]

VSS Vintorez isnt a sniper rifle. Its a rifle made for special applications having high precision with complete suppression.
A firing range of 400m doesnt make it a sniper rifle. You can shoot at that range with an M4 as well.



You can be obstinate on the point that SVD is a sniper rifle but the fact remains that only Russian sources claim it as so. And if it was that effective a Sniper Weapon, there wouldnt be any need to develop the SV-98.
You cannot shoot out beyond 800m accurately and with precision with an SVD.
Good luck with getting 1 MOA (common standard used for judging sniper rifles - 1MOA is the specification given for the new Indian Army RFI as well) accuracy with an SVD at 1000mtrs or beyond.


You need to know first why 7.62x51mm and 7.62x54mmR isnt the same thing. Then you'll understand why its essentially the same thing.

Russians made a different cartridge so it wouldnt be compatible with other weapons. Thats one.
The second reason for the increase in length of the Russian cartridge casing by 3mm as compared to the NATO cartridge is because the propellant powder in Russian cartridges doesnt have as much energy as the propellant used in NATO cartridges. Hence more propellant is needed to achieve similar performance.

The ballistic performance of 7.62x51mm and 7.62x54mm rimmed cartridge is similar.
In fact, terminal ballistics performance of the NATO cartridge has been deemed superior in terms of energy transferred to target.

This VSS Vintorez is also designed to fill different requirements, completely different to the M4A1 your citing,

Please stop going on about the Dragunov, it was and still is a capable weapon I'm sure most people whom have relevant knowledge on the matter would agree, average battle range conditions of upto 300m and it has been relevantly citing to have a range of over 800m, could I attain a first round hit at that range with my standard weapon I've been used to? Nope.

This thread is for a worthy suggestion of a replacement of the SVD, I've already suggested the L115A3 which is a direct descented of the L96 sniper rifle itself, it has been used in all sorts of conditions and is worthy contender in my eyes, the UK and India are showing signs of a desire to have a strengthened relationship and I'm sure an arms agreement from a British contractor to a welcomed allie of the UK shouldn't be an issue.

I'd be assuming we'll be seeing alot more collaberation on behalf of the UK and Indian Armed Forces in the near future including exercises and exchanges of training packages.

 

[sthf]

Read again bro, not the best bolt action rifle but the best rifle of its era. I rate Mausers the same as Lee Enfield with the "mad minute" as a slight advantage. As a standard issue rifle, Garand was better than both.

Enemy never gave fu*k what kind of action you are using, it cares about volume and accuracy of the incoming fire.

As for the service length of Lee Enfield in India, it has more to do with economics than anything else. No one looks at a Lee Enfield and says, "you know what I can buy a HK416 or FN Scar but I choose Lee Enfield". Modern rifles far exceed primitive bolt action in accuracy, rof and has good reliability.

If you can convince a single man whose life is on the line to go with Lee

 

[SofaAloo]

Read again bro, not the best bolt action rifle but the best rifle of its era. I rate Mausers the same as Lee Enfield with the "mad minute" as a slight advantage. As a standard issue rifle, Garand was better than both.

Enemy never gave fu*k what kind of action you are using, it cares about volume and accuracy of the incoming fire.

As for the service length of Lee Enfield in India, it has more to do with economics than anything else. No one looks at a Lee Enfield and says, "you know what I can buy a HK416 or FN Scar but I choose Lee Enfield". Modern rifles far exceed primitive bolt action in accuracy, rof and has good reliability.

If you can convince a single man whose life is on the line to go with Lee

I'm sure all were/are capable weapons still, I don't know about you and your "mad minute" but with regards to the training I've had you'll find the days of the mad minute are over and firefights can become rather extended.

All rifles had their plus points as well as downsides, but yes the M1 has been widely acclaimed as a success story and is still a popular weapon amongst beginners in the US!

 

[SofaAloo]

One thing you have to realise is that product brochures mean nothing when trails are conducted by IA.

There have been many instances where so called top of the line western equipment failed miserably in the trails done here.

One thing we have to keep in mind is that unless Indian climatic conditions were kept in mind while designing and prototyping, it is highly unlikely that any equipment will pass a test in Indian conditions. More so incase of precision instrument like a sniper rifle.

Really, so for a tried and tested weapon system that has seen trials all over the world but perhaps not India makes it incapable of matching the IA's standards.

Seeing as how the initial concept was derived from an upgrade from a weapon system known as the L96A1 which has been service in virtually all conditions bar space including Belize, Afghanistan, Iraq, Bosnia, Russia, Germany i.e jungle, artic, temperate, high altitude and all other theatres but in India it's not good enough?

I'd like to see some reference to some of the so called top of the line western equipment being trialled and not matching upto the standards requirement for a procurement...

 

[sthf]

Then we are in agreement. Going backwards rarely works and in this particular case it'll fail miserably.

Look up "mad minute" and no it is not some kind of myth. Indian Army up till the induction of SLR, regularly practiced mad minute as a part of infantry training.

 

[armyofhind]

The SVD Dragunov was designed from scratch as a designated marksman weapon, never a general issue assault weapon, and please don't cite "by todays standards" as an excuse for it not being a capable weapon, it was produced over 50 years ago and variants as well as improvements are still going strong.

You really also shouldn't compare the Russian Army's requirements to the Indian Army, it's not quite the same thing, they're main design requirements are massively different with regards to the previous 40 years aka the Cold War?

Yes their requirements were different. So?

I never said that the Dragunov is not a capable weapon. I said its not comparable to Sniper Rifles in use today.
The debate was on whether the SVD can be classed as a sniper rifle today or as a DMR.

Read and make sense of what is being discussed before blabbering like an idiot.

This VSS Vintorez is also designed to fill different requirements, completely different to the M4A1 your citing,

Yeah Ive written the same thing you idiot. go and read first. Again the argument is on whether it is a sniper rifle or not. Do you think a weapon with a max range of 400 m is a sniper rifle? Or rather a special purpose weapon?
Vintorez was made for Spetsnaz units for picking off sentries and such from intermediate range in silence.

You could put on a suppressor on the end of a SAKO TRG or an M110 or an MSG and do it from much farther than a Vintorez today.

Please stop going on about the Dragunov, it was and still is a capable weapon I'm sure most people whom have relevant knowledge on the matter would agree, average battle range conditions of upto 300m and it has been relevantly citing to have a range of over 800m, could I attain a first round hit at that range with my standard weapon I've been used to? Nope.

SVD is a capable weapon but it isnt enough when our guys are facing new age sniper rifles chambered for lapua magnum and are being targeted from ranges well beyond 800mtrs.
That is precisely why this RFI for a new class of weapon in the Indian Army has been issued .

Because a weapon is still capable today doesnt mean more capable weapons shouldnt be adopted and the designation of the older weapons changed to those of the newer weapons.

Thats like terming a Mig-21 Bison a fifth generation fighter.

This thread is for a worthy suggestion of a replacement of the SVD, I've already suggested the L115A3 which is a direct descented of the L96 sniper rifle itself, it has been used in all sorts of conditions and is worthy contender in my eyes, the UK and India are showing signs of a desire to have a strengthened relationship and I'm sure an arms agreement from a British contractor to a welcomed allie of the UK shouldn't be an issue.

Which rifle will be selected isnt for you to decide. The competitors will come forth with their weapons and then they will be evaluated under indian conditions. The winner will be chosen.
So stop with the british fanboy rantings.

Read and understand first what the debate is about before being an idiot and getting verbal diarrhea.

 

[AbRaj]

Enough with this DMR vs Sniper debate.
Its simple : we need another sniper rifle better than SVD along with SVDs in field