Indian nuclear submarines

Love Charger

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It seems like Indian Navy wants a modified Barracuda Class SSN with a Russian OK 650B nuclear reactor due to the pump jet propulsion technology.



Seems like some small models of pump jet technology is already undergoing testing at the Warship Design Bureau.

https://idrw.org/france-offers-pumpjet-propulsion-technology-for-indian-ssn-program/

So until pump jet propulsion technology matures to the point it can be used in Project 75A like DRDO's AIP, no construction will begin on the SSN barring an early CCS approval.
Kuch aik jaisa lo na, for once navy ji for once.
 

SwordOfDarkness

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1 silo in arihant can fit 3 k15 missile, so it may be able to fit 4 bramhos or 5 nirbhay considering their diameter (0.6 and 0.52). While k15 is 0.75 in diameter
If the missile dimentions you gave are correct, it can fit 7 nirbhay almost exactly. Below is the figure drawn to scale:

1678986780643.png
 

Aniruddha Mulay

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IN seems to call the SSN program as Project-77 and it was reduced to 3 subs and even they are awaiting the CCS clearance.
It isn't reduced to 3 subs dammit, the new proposal is to build 3 nuclear attack subs in Phase-1 followed by another 3 which will get approval at a later date.
The 3 follow-on subs will feature several technological improvements over the first 3 boats.
 

abingdonboy

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It isn't reduced to 3 subs dammit, the new proposal is to build 3 nuclear attack subs in Phase-1 followed by another 3 which will get approval at a later date.
The 3 follow-on subs will feature several technological improvements over the first 3 boats.
Standard Indian approach….

tiny order= huge costs and production delays,

huge red tap gap to gain fresh approvals

follow on tiny order

meanwhile PLA(N) will be flodding IOR with their fleet

the South Koreans will have a stronger navy than the IN within 15 years
 

IndianHawk

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The mediocrity and lack of vision of Indian defence planners never fails to blow me away.

come 2040 Indian GDP will be >$18TN USD even at a modest ~1.5% defence spend that’s~$300bn a year defence budget and they’ll have at most 6 SSN, a comparable SSBN fleet, 12-18 SSK? That’s less than the PLAN has TODAY

Indian defence and political leadership thinking they can keep playing the odds and grow prosperity without the hard power to back it up will soon realise their folly
Horses for courses.
Our naval doctrine for now is too defend Indian Ocean region for that 6 SSN are more than enough. We are not going for global sea patrol USA is there for that.
Chinese will have to contend with usa and it's proxies ( aukus and japs) and only remaining few assets can challenge india in ior where we will have support from shore line for anti sub / anti ship warfare.
 

SwordOfDarkness

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Standard Indian approach….

tiny order= huge costs and production delays,

huge red tap gap to gain fresh approvals

follow on tiny order

meanwhile PLA(N) will be flodding IOR with their fleet

the South Koreans will have a stronger navy than the IN within 15 years
We dont need more than 3 AC, 20 subs to dominate IOR, atleast 600km from our bases we have complete control with land based batteries and anti sub platforms, only beyond that we need navy to exert control.

This is the area under our control from land assets taking 600 km range bramhos as strike platform, not air launched one which can be launched till much further.

1678991646274.png


This is with 800km upgraded bramhos

1678991787373.png
 

abingdonboy

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Horses for courses.
Our naval doctrine for now is too defend Indian Ocean region for that 6 SSN are more than enough. We are not going for global sea patrol USA is there for that.
Chinese will have to contend with usa and it's proxies ( aukus and japs) and only remaining few assets can challenge india in ior where we will have support from shore line for anti sub / anti ship warfare.
In one breath the GoI says it wants to be a developed nation by 2047, in the next it says it is only interested in a defensive posture. You can’t become prosperous to the scale india will need without having the ability to project power and protect your interests away from your shores

Pure myopia and impotent thinking, the Russians will have more SSNs in 2040 than the IN despite the Russian economy being maybe 1/8th of India’s by then

Indian strategic thinkers talk a big game about being a civilisational state, but where the rubber meets the road they act as third rate players.

India can’t justify its place amongst the P5
 

abingdonboy

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We dont need more than 3 AC, 20 subs to dominate IOR, atleast 600km from our bases we have complete control with land based batteries and anti sub platforms, only beyond that we need navy to exert control.

This is the are under our control from land assets taking 600 km range bramhos as strike platform, not air launched one which can be launched till much further.

View attachment 196957
Like I said-Myopia
 

SwordOfDarkness

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Like I said-Myopia
Nope, just different goals. You want a navy that rivals the US< IN and Govt want a navy good enough to prevent someone from landing on our islands.

IN is unlikely to be an offensive asset in future wars with our neighbors, they will be fought and decided primarily by the army. AF will play a small role, navy will be negligible.
 

abingdonboy

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Nope, just different goals. You want a navy that rivals the US< IN and Govt want a navy good enough to prevent someone from landing on our islands.

IN is unlikely to be an offensive asset in future wars with our neighbors, they will be fought and decided primarily by the army. AF will play a small role, navy will be negligible.
Navies by their nature are the most expeditionary and power projection assets.

if you let the PLAN box you into the IOR they’ve already won. Russia,France, U.K., US all have naval bases abroad and conduct global patrols, to think Indian interests will always be contained within the IOR is incredibly short sighted, it also means india is giving up space for the Chinese to expand into. What if west African or s.American countries would like Indian partnerships? Imaging the world 15/20/30 years down the line as it is today is bizarre.

what great power has emerged that was content with a purely defensive posture? Eventually this becomes limiting
 

Aniruddha Mulay

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Standard Indian approach….

tiny order= huge costs and production delays,

huge red tap gap to gain fresh approvals

follow on tiny order

meanwhile PLA(N) will be flodding IOR with their fleet

the South Koreans will have a stronger navy than the IN within 15 years
I think its still too early to tell, the Project 75A or 77 is a classified program with very little to no public information.
You have to also take into consideration the long construction timelines associated with projects as complex as building SSN and SSBN.
Currently, only SBC has the capacity and the capability to build nuclear submarines in India.
At present, its capacity is of building 2 nuclear submarines simultaneously.
It is being upgraded to build 4 nuclear submarines simultaneously but it will still be a year or two until the additional production lines have been built and are operational.
You have to also consider that the timelines of construction of the P75A SSN and S5 class SSBN do coincide, there might be a difference of a year at max.
The likely scenario is that SBC will be building 2 S5 class SSBN and 2 P75A SSN simultaneously with each sub taking 6-8 years to be built at minimum.
Even if 6 SSNs are ordered upfront, the SBC facility won't be able to utilize all 4 production lines for their construction as 3 S5 class SSBN are going to be built with 3 additional S5 class SSBN to be built at a later stage for a total of 6 S5 class SSBN.
Approvals for such strategic projects will be far quicker, we have already seen that in the case of Arihant class wherein due to revised timelines of the S5 class SSBN construction an additional submarine of the Arihant class was ordered so that the production line did not go idle.
 

jai jaganath

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I think its still too early to tell, the Project 75A or 77 is a classified program with very little to no public information.
You have to also take into consideration the long construction timelines associated with projects as complex as building SSN and SSBN.
Currently, only SBC has the capacity and the capability to build nuclear submarines in India.
At present, its capacity is of building 2 nuclear submarines simultaneously.
It is being upgraded to build 4 nuclear submarines simultaneously but it will still be a year or two until the additional production lines have been built and are operational.
You have to also consider that the timelines of construction of the P75A SSN and S5 class SSBN do coincide, there might be a difference of a year at max.
The likely scenario is that SBC will be building 2 S5 class SSBN and 2 P75A SSN simultaneously with each sub taking 6-8 years to be built at minimum.
Even if 6 SSNs are ordered upfront, the SBC facility won't be able to utilize all 4 production lines for their construction as 3 S5 class SSBN are going to be built with 3 additional S5 class SSBN to be built at a later stage for a total of 6 S5 class SSBN.
Approvals for such strategic projects will be far quicker, we have already seen that in the case of Arihant class wherein due to revised timelines of the S5 class SSBN construction an additional submarine of the Arihant class was ordered so that the production line did not go idle.
I understand last para of yours then why haven't ccs cleared ssn until now sirji
 

IndianHawk

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In one breath the GoI says it wants to be a developed nation by 2047, in the next it says it is only interested in a defensive posture. You can’t become prosperous to the scale india will need without having the ability to project power and protect your interests away from your shores

Pure myopia and impotent thinking, the Russians will have more SSNs in 2040 than the IN despite the Russian economy being maybe 1/8th of India’s by then

Indian strategic thinkers talk a big game about being a civilisational state, but where the rubber meets the road they act as third rate players.

India can’t justify its place amongst the P5
It's not myopia but pragmatism.
We can't tackle China on a global scale anytime soon . Throwing money at military in hope to match china would impede our economic progress. Hence we need to hedge with usa. That's why we are investing in quad and selling offensive weapons to Philippines and Indonesia.

After 2040 we can embark on massive naval expansion as our economy would allow for it till then we will manage ior and let usa and allies take care of other sea routes.

Infact we have no other conflict with any other major power in the world. Russia is an ally so is western world ( at least for trade) .

We must learn from Chinese themselves who didn't had a single carrier untill few years ago . We must too bide our time next 15 -20 yrs .
 

Aniruddha Mulay

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I understand last para of yours then why haven't ccs cleared ssn until now sirji
Its still unclear if the program is going to be financed from the Navy's CAPEX allocation or by the PMO directly similar to the Arihant program.
If its going to be financed from the Navy's CAPEX, which is highly unlikely, given the enormous costs of this program and Navy's other commitments, CCS sanction will be public.
If this program is going to be financed by PMO, then the CCS sanction will never be made public and you will see the sub pop-up on GE one fine day at random.
 

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