Indian nuclear submarines

[StealthSniper]

Having made the Arihant is great news for India and the technical knowhow we learned from Russia is greatly appreciated. I think we are in a good position although we are a little behind right now. We in my opinion should have no less then 6-10 nuclear submarines active by 2020 and this is because we should have some submarines for India defence and some submarines for offence against other countries.


We also need to fasttrack our delivery of our 6 attack submarines which are the follow on of the Scorpene submarine. We need to have at least 15-20 modern attack conventional submarines or more because we got 7,000 square kilometres to cover. Our surface ships are going as planned but our submarine programs are behind.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Having made the Arihant is great news for India and the technical knowhow we learned from Russia is greatly appreciated. I think we are in a good position although we are a little behind right now. We in my opinion should have no less then 6-10 nuclear submarines active by 2020 and this is because we should have some submarines for India defence and some submarines for offence against other countries.


We also need to fasttrack our delivery of our 6 attack submarines which are the follow on of the Scorpene submarine. We need to have at least 15-20 modern attack conventional submarines or more because we got 7,000 square kilometres to cover. Our surface ships are going as planned but our submarine programs are behind.

Right now India has 16 subs -10 kilo, 2 foxtrot and 4 german 209s. In the next few years a few may be retired so it is critical for the Indian govt to prevent anymore delay in the acquisitions.Scorpenes have already been burdened by delays and now cost hikes. Indian govt want to have 10 ATV' by 2020, add to that the 6 scorpenes and if Amur is chosen as the second line sub 3-4 Amur's,1 akula leased from Russia. All of these subs will all be NEW that will be 20 + new subs within 10 years . Around 2015 we should have atleast 3 ATV's 3-4 scorpenes and possibly 3-4 amurs if chosen. Depending on how many subs are retired around 2015-2020 we could possibly have 20-25 operational subs. Also our Andamann sub base will also completed or close to completion.

 

[Sabir]

The foxtrot subs are going to be retired. Type 209 are newer than our Kilos. And Kilos too have undergone refitting to serve few more years. By 2020 all procurement(6 Scorpenes +6 more advanced subs + 6 ATVs) will be completed making India one of the most powerful submarine force in world. One more important thing is India's growing ASW capability. Inclusion of 8 P-8I will put India much ahead of its neighbours when it comes to submarine warfare.

 

[mattster]

Basic question for all forum members.....This one has me confused.

If you dont have SLBM boomer capability, then whats the use of having all these conventional diesel submarines. Its not like they are going to be used to hunt down enemy SLBM based submarines, since the enemy may be launching their missiles from thousands of miles away.

If you have an SLBM based nuclear submarine fleet, then it makes sense to have a flotilla of attack subs to protect the nuke subs from enemy subs.

I guess you could still use attack subs to attack conventional aircraft carriers and frigates/warships in the event of a war but little else.

It just seems to me that it doesnt make sense for India to maintain 20 conventional submarines all these years without even having one with SLBM capability.

It just seems like a waste of funds. Am I getting this wrong ??

 

[StealthSniper]

The foxtrot subs are going to be retired. Type 209 are newer than our Kilos. And Kilos too have undergone refitting to serve few more years. By 2020 all procurement(6 Scorpenes +6 more advanced subs + 6 ATVs) will be completed making India one of the most powerful submarine force in world. One more important thing is India's growing ASW capability. Inclusion of 8 P-8I will put India much ahead of its neighbours when it comes to submarine warfare.

Well I think we will have if everything goes well by 2020:

NUCLEAR SUBMARINE

ATV's-------------> 1 - ?????????? (don't know final # maybe someone has better insight by 2020)

CONVENTIONAL SUBMARINE

1. Scorpene---> 6
2. Follow on Submarine -----> 6
3. Kilo's-------> 10


So I think we will have 22 conventional attack sumbarine by 2020 WHICH IS A GOOD #. And between 1 to 10 Nuclear submarine which is actually okay and not bad. We don't need to compete number with number with China but have a good enough deterent, and with 22 attack sub and 5 or more nuke sub we are fine.


And don't be blind, India is not going to have the most powerful submarine force in the world, don't even think that. We will have a ADEQUATE number for deterence and that's all we need.

 

[StealthSniper]

Basic question for all forum members.....This one has me confused.

If you dont have SLBM boomer capability, then whats the use of having all these conventional diesel submarines. Its not like they are going to be used to hunt down enemy SLBM based submarines, since the enemy may be launching their missiles from thousands of miles away.

If you have an SLBM based nuclear submarine fleet, then it makes sense to have a flotilla of attack subs to protect the nuke subs from enemy subs.

I guess you could still use attack subs to attack conventional aircraft carriers and frigates/warships in the event of a war but little else.

It just seems to me that it doesnt make sense for India to maintain 20 conventional submarines all these years without even having one with SLBM capability.

It just seems like a waste of funds. Am I getting this wrong ??

Conventional submarines don't have the endurance of nuke subs and generally stay close to the country to defend against other subs and surface ships. For a country that has the Arabian sea, the Bay of Bengal, and the Indian ocean to cover we need a large number of conventional submarines for the hunter killer operations they carry out. They also track other ships that sail through to make sure they don't have bad intentions.

Remember China has 51 or so conventional submarines and they dont have the coastline that we have to defend.

 

[AJSINGH]

well if we dont have long endurance subs , what we can do is build submarine base at Andamans and Nicobar , lease an island from Mauritius, build early warning radar system there , possibly have a naval base with operational Naval Air Arm . If IN does have SLBM, with range of excess of 2000km then we can launch those missile while staying well within territorial waters , protected by Surface ships and maritime strike fighter
Attack subs are vital ships in any navy, there primary role is fleet protection while Nuclear Subs are used for missile launches or if they have attack capability , they role is also to destroy enemy SLBM subs , because that kind of endurance is achieved by neuclear submarines .

 

[Sabir]

Well I think we will have if everything goes well by 2020:

NUCLEAR SUBMARINE

ATV's-------------> 1 - ?????????? (don't know final # maybe someone has better insight by 2020)

CONVENTIONAL SUBMARINE

1. Scorpene---> 6
2. Follow on Submarine -----> 6
3. Kilo's-------> 10


So I think we will have 22 conventional attack sumbarine by 2020 WHICH IS A GOOD #. And between 1 to 10 Nuclear submarine which is actually okay and not bad. We don't need to compete number with number with China but have a good enough deterent, and with 22 attack sub and 5 or more nuke sub we are fine.


And don't be blind, India is not going to have the most powerful submarine force in the world, don't even think that. We will have a ADEQUATE number for deterence and that's all we need.

why have you excluded 4 type 209 from the list while keeping Kilos in list. Type 209s are newer than Kilos. So your actual count will be 26. There will be 6 ATVs and first three of them SSBN. heard next 3 can be much more costly than Arihant class. May be they will be nuclear attack submarines (SSN). Now dont forget the Advanced Akula II that we are leasing from Russia. Google a bit , you will come to know even Russia herself does not have any such sub in their own inventory. So, obviously not most powerful but still a formidable one. Only US, Russia, Uk, France, China will be ahead of India in number of Submarines. And remember though China will have a very large fleet , their subs fall short of modern western submarines when it comes to quality.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Well I think we will have if everything goes well by 2020:

NUCLEAR SUBMARINE

ATV's-------------> 1 - ?????????? (don't know final # maybe someone has better insight by 2020)

CONVENTIONAL SUBMARINE

1. Scorpene---> 6
2. Follow on Submarine -----> 6
3. Kilo's-------> 10


So I think we will have 22 conventional attack sumbarine by 2020 WHICH IS A GOOD #. And between 1 to 10 Nuclear submarine which is actually okay and not bad. We don't need to compete number with number with China but have a good enough deterent, and with 22 attack sub and 5 or more nuke sub we are fine.


And don't be blind, India is not going to have the most powerful submarine force in the world, don't even think that. We will have a ADEQUATE number for deterence and that's all we need.

the numbers maybe higher Indian Govt has a goal of 10 ATV's by 2020 even if they reach it by 50% it would still mean 5 ATV's.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

why have you excluded 4 type 209 from the list while keeping Kilos in list. Type 209s are newer than Kilos. So your actual count will be 26. There will be 6 ATVs and first three of them SSBN. heard next 3 can be much more costly than Arihant class. May be they will be nuclear attack submarines (SSN). Now dont forget the Advanced Akula II that we are leasing from Russia. Google a bit , you will come to know even Russia herself does not have any such sub in their own inventory. So, obviously not most powerful but still a formidable one. Only US, Russia, Uk, France, China will be ahead of India in number of Submarines. And remember though China will have a very large fleet , their subs fall short of modern western submarines when it comes to quality.

Sabir 209s maybe on the list to be retired around 2016? I am not sure if this will happen because they were acquired 1986-87 maybe they can be extended a bit?

 

[Sabir]

It may be little off topic but I think cross posting it from another thread will give a more realistic picture of Indian and Chinese submarine fleet.

Conventional submarines of China and India
Diesel-Electric Submarines of PLAN

If we take consider 2020 as timeline, the PLAN sub-marine fleet will compose of Kilo class, Type 039 Song class and Yuan class. Presently operational 8 Type 033 Romeo class and 15 Type 035 Ming class will be phased out (The inventory of PLAN submarines looks very large because of them. Anyway putting them aside we will get a more transparent picture for our comparison)

At present PLAN operates 12 Russian Kilo class submarines of which 4 belong to Project 877 Paltus and 8 are of more advanced version, belong to Project 636. (Note-India’s 10 Kilo class subs are of Project 877) These were commissioned In between 1994 to 2006.

PLAN operates 13 TYPE 039 Song class submarines. These are first indigenously built submarines which can be comparable to contemporary western submarines. AIP system might be installed in these ships in future.

Yuan class submarines are most advanced among PLAN’s submarines. These submarines are believed to have influence of Russian Kilo class but its capabilities surpass that of Kilo class and Song Class. But technology of Yuan class lags behind of German Type 212 or Russian Lada class. Serial production of these submarines started in 2007 and at least 2 have been built till now. Though china has the option to buy more advanced Russian Amur class submarines, it may go for its indigenous submarines instead of buying Amurs.

Diesel Electric Submarines Indian Navy
Among 16 submarines of Indian Navy 2 Foxtort class submarines (commissioned in 1973-74) will be decommissioned.

At present India is operating (10 Kilo) Sindhughosh class submarines commissioned in between 1986 to 2000 and 4 (Type 209) Shishumar class submarines commissioned in between 1986 to 1994.

6 (Project 75) Scorpene of French origin are being built at Mazagaon Dock Ltd and last three of these submarines will have MESMA Air Independent Propulsion module. These submarines will be commissioned starting from 2012 to 2017.

There will be 6 more modern submarines (project 75 B) to be commissioned within 2015 to 2020. These might be of Russian Amur class or German Type 214 submarines or more advanced model of DCN (manufacturer of Scorpene) though details are not still available.

The myth of very large submarine fleet of PLAN will not hold once the obsolete submarines are deducted from the comparison. If PLAN inducts 10 more Yuan class submarines in next decade total number of Diesel-Electric submarines will be 37 while Indian Navy will operate 26 such submarines. If China fails to maintain the standard of Yuan class submarines at per with the western ones India will have the qualitative advantage because of the proven technology in Scorpene or U-214/Amur class submarines.

Nuclear submarines of China and India

Nuclear submarines of PLAN
Type 092 Xia class SSBN
These submarines entered service in 1981. one of the two Xia class subs were lost due to an accident. According to US Defense Intelligence Agency these submarines are no more operational and replaced my more advanced Type 094 Jin class SSBN

Type 094 Jin class SSBN
At least 2 has been commissioned since 2004 and there will be up to 5 within 2010 . These submarines are believed to have significant Russian technology and each of them can carry 12 JL-2 missiles of 8000 km range.

Type 091 Han class SSN
2 of total 5 have been retired already and others are unlikely to continue for very long in service. These will be succeeded by modern Type 093 submarines.

Type 093 SSN
Possibly 6-8 of this type will be introduced in PLAN. Within 2010 there would be 3-4 of this type. These submarines are heavily influenced by Russian design and comparable to Russian Vitor III class, but inferior to Akula class submarines.

Nuclear submarines of India

First indigenously built (of course there was significant Russian help) SSBN INS Arihant has been introduced already. Next two of this category are under construction. This submarines will carry Sagarika (range 750 km) missile. May be Agni-III (range 3500km +) will be introduced later.
Next 3 of total 6 ATVs will be of different type than INS Arihant . May be these will be nuclear attack submarines (SSN). According to unconfirmed news cost of these submarines will be few times more than INS Arihant category submarines.
India is receiving one Akula nuclear attack submarine from Russia on lease (10 years with option to buy). There will be one more Russian attack submarine on lease in future.

Like conventional Diesel-Electric submarines if we exclude obsolete SSBN and SSN of PLAN (from the scaring number of PLAN submarine fleet) the total number will be 5+ SSBN and 8 SSN at the and of next decade, while India will operate 3 SSBN and 4-5 SSN in total. India will be lagging behind China numerically; it will have enough number to act as the deterrence. May be India will have qualitative supremacy over China because of the presence of Russian Akula submarines in its inventory.

 

[Sabir]

Sabir 209s maybe on the list to be retired around 2016? I am not sure if this will happen because they were acquired 1986-87 maybe they can be extended a bit?

first one was acquired in 1984 and the last one in 1994..You can expect 30 years of service with refitting. May be first two of type 209 and some Kilos will be retired. Again there is a chance of longer service with extensive refitting programme.

 

[StealthSniper]

why have you excluded 4 type 209 from the list while keeping Kilos in list. Type 209s are newer than Kilos. So your actual count will be 26. There will be 6 ATVs and first three of them SSBN. heard next 3 can be much more costly than Arihant class. May be they will be nuclear attack submarines (SSN). Now dont forget the Advanced Akula II that we are leasing from Russia. Google a bit , you will come to know even Russia herself does not have any such sub in their own inventory. So, obviously not most powerful but still a formidable one. Only US, Russia, Uk, France, China will be ahead of India in number of Submarines. And remember though China will have a very large fleet , their subs fall short of modern western submarines when it comes to quality.

Yes I have looked at the information I have and the 4 type 209's were started to be commissioned in 1986 and they have been refitted. So the total number would be 26 BUT I purposely gave a conservative number just in case things change by 2020. And your ATV number does sound correct. I think in my opinion we should have around 5 ATV because you and I know their are going to be delays. So here is my updated #:


BY 2020:

5 ATV
1 Russian K-152 Nerpa Nuclear submarine

and 26 modern updated conventional submarine.


And I understand Indian submarine force is going to be a strong one but I always like to think we can be better. I understand what your saying Sabir but I like to downplay our forces on purpose just because we can always improve.

 

[StealthSniper]

Also I agree that China has a older submarine force and by 2020 it MIGHT become very close to India's submarine numbers. I am going to try to find more info on China's upgrade program and see what they have planned for their subs. But I do think if they don't upgrade their sub force and India follows their attack and nuke sub plan, then we will have smaller but more modern and advanced submarine force then China. And that's all we wanted and needed. Quality vs Quantity is what India is about.

 

[mattster]

Does anyone know how long it will take before India can launch a ballistic missile from a submarine ??

So far all their launches have been from underwater pontoons. Do anyone have any inside news ??

 

[StealthSniper]

Does anyone know how long it will take before India can launch a ballistic missile from a submarine ??

So far all their launches have been from underwater pontoons. Do anyone have any inside news ??

Underwater launching of a ballistic missile is very serious stuff and takes a lot of testing and fine tuning before it can be inducted onto submarines. I can't tell you when we will be launching a ballistic missile from a submarine but I will find out more about it.

 

[mattster]

Underwater launching of a ballistic missile is very serious stuff and takes a lot of testing and fine tuning before it can be inducted onto submarines. I can't tell you when we will be launching a ballistic missile from a submarine but I will find out more about it.

Thanks....I appreciate it. Do they have the capability to launch a cruise missile like the Brahmos from a sub ???

 

[StealthSniper]

Thanks....I appreciate it. Do they have the capability to launch a cruise missile like the Brahmos from a sub ???

I think the Arihant will be able to launch Brahmos in the future but I don't know for sure. I do know that the surface ships already are starting in induct the missiles and the airforce is going to launch them from the Sukhoi MKI.

 

[Sabir]

This list of past-present and probable future number of submarines and Carriers of India from globalsecurity.org (but I doubt about the number of ATV stated...and first three of them is supposed to be SSBN)

Anybody has information about Project 76B?

 

[LETHALFORCE]

The ATV number is wrong because the second ATV will be soon possibly in the next few years so 2 is a low and inaccurate number

'Second indigenous nuke sub will be ready soon' - Yahoo! India News