Indian nuclear submarines

[AZTEC]

This has more to do with utility. Off course there is no use of vapourising a part of land to a higher depth. Destruction is absolute in a constant area regardless of blast yield of weapon (if yield exceeds 20kT).
So in case of wartime use, hydrogen bombs of 200-300 kT with high radius of damage to size ratio, become more efficient against MT class thermonuclear weapons.

Then off course I said India doesn't have a 1000 naval nuclear warheads. Both future fleet and India having thousands of nuclear weapons, are at least 2-3 decades away things.

AFAIK, it would be not an engineering problem if process and effects of both types of nuclear explosions have been tested as scaled up versions would be based upon them. No P5 countries have used actual tests either test ban, yet they have been improving it.

It is different in case of India where doubts on reliability of Indian TNWs by P5 (or probably P5's classified awareness about Indian nuclear capabilities), has earned India a good amount of respect in world unlike other non NPT nuclear powers which are treated as rough states.

You (and so is thought by P5) just simply can't compare India to other non NPT powers given India's missile, reactor, propulsion capabilities, contributions to ITER and most important, ability to outspend even P5 countries in this aspect. So until India actually emerges as an unchallenged force like US & USSR were during cold war and surpasses/matches P5's nuclear weapons, there would be no use of physical testing. Benefit of doubt will be there for India's untested city busters.

Okay, my bad I haven't really explained what I wanted to conclude with all my sayings.

So, I just want to say, "if we want to have nuclear forces at least as formidable as China's, we need to start testing ASAP", which is exactly what Bharat Karnad advocates. It's just that we are too afraid to do it, because we try too much to preserve our "responsible nation" image, except that in the ruthless world of geopolitics, there is no morality, only self-interest.

I think we can all agree on this one?


Let's not go too much into technicalities, although I assure you I am very well informed.

Nevertheless, here's the last fact I'll present:

US security officials 'considered return to nuclear testing' after 28-year hiatus

Discussion held this month as way to press Russia and China into agreeing arms control deal, officials say

www.theguardian.com

It basically says that the reason US and Russia stopped testing was to prevent other nations from catching up to them, not necessarily because "computers made testing redundant".

Adios!!!

 

[SilentlAssassin265]

Okay, my bad I haven't really explained what I wanted to conclude with all my sayings.

So, I just want to say, "if we want to have nuclear forces at least as formidable as China's, we need to start testing ASAP", which is exactly what Bharat Karnad advocates. It's just that we are too afraid to do it, because we try too much to preserve our "responsible nation" image, except that in the ruthless world of geopolitics, there is no morality, only self-interest.

I think we can all agree on this one?


Let's not go too much into technicalities, although I assure you I am very well informed.

Nevertheless, here's the last fact I'll present:

US security officials 'considered return to nuclear testing' after 28-year hiatus

Discussion held this month as way to press Russia and China into agreeing arms control deal, officials say

www.theguardian.com

It basically says that the reason US and Russia stopped testing was to prevent other nations from catching up to them, not necessarily because "computers made testing redundant".

Adios!!!

Is outer space nuke testing prohibited too

 

[AnantS]

Is outer space nuke testing prohibited too

Yes and India is signatory to PTBT

 

[THESIS THORON]

imo, each country is waiting for other one (in p5 nations ) to break the treaty

 

[Indx TechStyle]

So, I just want to say, "if we want to have nuclear forces at least as formidable as China's, we need to start testing ASAP", which is exactly what Bharat Karnad advocates.

As I have pre-empted that already, India can't do nuclear tests nuclear tests at this stage but it's tech capability is still enough to produce havoc bringing nukes.
Mass testing might begin when India becomes a politically, economically and militarily far powerful force today than it is now + at some kind of mission of balancing deterrence with China and US.

 

[Tridev123]

Okay, my bad I haven't really explained what I wanted to conclude with all my sayings.

So, I just want to say, "if we want to have nuclear forces at least as formidable as China's, we need to start testing ASAP", which is exactly what Bharat Karnad advocates. It's just that we are too afraid to do it, because we try too much to preserve our "responsible nation" image, except that in the ruthless world of geopolitics, there is no morality, only self-interest.

I think we can all agree on this one?


Let's not go too much into technicalities, although I assure you I am very well informed.

Nevertheless, here's the last fact I'll present:

US security officials 'considered return to nuclear testing' after 28-year hiatus

Discussion held this month as way to press Russia and China into agreeing arms control deal, officials say

www.theguardian.com

It basically says that the reason US and Russia stopped testing was to prevent other nations from catching up to them, not necessarily because "computers made testing redundant".

Adios!!!

Your logic is quite convincing.
Most of the international arms control treaties are more about preserving the status quo and the privileges that the P5 enjoy.

I would like to make an outrageous suggestion.
Gonna be crucified probably.
Those who feel very offended can treat it as a joke.

Since we lack the guts to resume nuclear testing for validating an true thermonuclear bomb of 1 Megaton yield. (I believe it is very important for sending an message to the Chinese.)

So why not outsource the testing to North Korea. The only country which cares a damn about international reactions and repeatedly shows the middle finger to Washington.

Now immediately some would say that our Hydrogen bomb design will be leaked to the Chinese by the North Koreans. Probably 100% true. But the Chinese have an fully tested miniaturised Megaton strength TN device design available for decades.

What new technology will they gain from dissecting the Indian design. Also the 1 megaton TN(thermonuclear) device design that we provide to the North Koreans should be a bulky large weight, large size design which the North Koreans will not find easy to miniaturise.

They may eventually succeed in miniaturisation much later on.

On the other hand India will know how to modify/refine the crude TN device design(provided to North Korea) and also miniaturise the TN design to make it fit into missiles.

Another potent danger is if the North Koreans share the design with the Pakistanis.
But I believe that the North Koreans will not do any such thing without the approval of Beijing. If Beijing has still not provided an small size TN device design to Islamabad for certain reasons (who wants an crazy Mullah ruled country, that too an neighbour getting its hands on very large yield TN bombs) then it makes sense for the Chinese to continue to deny such technology to Pakistan.

Probably the intention of this outrageous article is to egg New Delhi to resume nuclear testing on a limited scale.

 

[Vamsi]

Your logic is quite convincing.
Most of the international arms control treaties are more about preserving the status quo and the privileges that the P5 enjoy.

I would like to make an outrageous suggestion.
Gonna be crucified probably.
Those who feel very offended can treat it as a joke.

Since we lack the guts to resume nuclear testing for validating an true thermonuclear bomb of 1 Megaton yield. (I believe it is very important for sending an message to the Chinese.)

So why not outsource the testing to North Korea. The only country which cares a damn about international reactions and repeatedly shows the middle finger to Washington.

Now immediately some would say that our Hydrogen bomb design will be leaked to the Chinese by the North Koreans. Probably 100% true. But the Chinese have an fully tested miniaturised Megaton strength TN device design available for decades.

What new technology will they gain from dissecting the Indian design. Also the 1 megaton TN(thermonuclear) device design that we provide to the North Koreans should be a bulky large weight, large size design which the North Koreans will not find easy to miniaturise.

They may eventually succeed in miniaturisation much later on.

On the other hand India will know how to modify/refine the crude TN device design(provided to North Korea) and also miniaturise the TN design to make it fit into missiles.

Another potent danger is if the North Koreans share the design with the Pakistanis.
But I believe that the North Koreans will not do any such thing without the approval of Beijing. If Beijing has still not provided an small size TN device design to Islamabad for certain reasons (who wants an crazy Mullah ruled country, that too an neighbour getting its hands on very large yield TN bombs) then it makes sense for the Chinese to continue to deny such technology to Pakistan.

Probably the intention of this outrageous article is to egg New Delhi to resume nuclear testing on a limited scale.

People laughed when I said that we should test nuke in space at far side of the sun, so that muricans can't detect it & I said this to you only

 

[SKC]

People laughed when I said that we should test nuke in space at far side of the sun, so that muricans can't detect it & I said this to you only

View attachment 186601

Kam piya kar bhai!

 

[AZTEC]

People laughed when I said that we should test nuke in space at far side of the sun, so that muricans can't detect it & I said this to you only

View attachment 186601

Americans tried to send a nuke to the moon in the late 70s. It was a failed black op.
Somebody shot it out of the sky before the missile could become exoatmospheric. Don't ask me who, because some things are best not said....

So, I beg you, please don't try to send a nuke to the sun if you ever become prime minister. xD

And don't try to do a google search about this. You will find nothing.
I don't expect any of you to believe what I just said, but just keep this in the back of your mind. Hopefully, a few decades from now when it becomes public knowledge, just remember that a guy knew this years ago and even took the pain to talk about it on online forums.

Plus we are digressing from the venerable topic of nuke subs, so yeah....

 

[no smoking]

Your logic is quite convincing.
Most of the international arms control treaties are more about preserving the status quo and the privileges that the P5 enjoy.

I would like to make an outrageous suggestion.
Gonna be crucified probably.
Those who feel very offended can treat it as a joke.

......

Probably the intention of this outrageous article is to egg New Delhi to resume nuclear testing on a limited scale.

Not sure if you really understand what you are suggesting.
Asking someone else to do the test for you won't reduce the international pressure on you.
Instead, by doing that, you are not only to deal with your part of pressure but you are going to pay for the pressure that North Korea is going to face, which means billions of dollars compensation. I don't think any Indian politician in his right mind will do that.
Also, by revealing the design of your bomb will make the international society more efficiently putting sanctions and bans on India nuclear industries.
Finally, how can you trust if North Korea will send back the right data without any modification?

 

[Tridev123]

Not sure if you really understand what you are suggesting.
Asking someone else to do the test for you won't reduce the international pressure on you.
Instead, by doing that, you are not only to deal with your part of pressure but you are going to pay for the pressure that North Korea is going to face, which means billions of dollars compensation. I don't think any Indian politician in his right mind will do that.
Also, by revealing the design of your bomb will make the international society more efficiently putting sanctions and bans on India nuclear industries.
Finally, how can you trust if North Korea will send back the right data without any modification?

Bro, it was meant as an sarcastic comment.
Trying to provoke the decision makers to carry out at least a couple of 1 megaton tests.

A few members wanted to see an Indian mushroom cloud for memories sake. So let us carry out at least one 1 megaton above ground test.

It will be a bit polluting, the radiation but then the P5 have carried out many above ground tests in the past. They didn't care.

As far as the the topic of outsourcing tests is concerned. Unconfirmed reports say that the then apartheid regime in South Africa conducted an clandestine nuclear test for Israel. To validate an Israeli bomb design. Decades ago. You can Google it.

Everybody knows that the North Koreans are the most favorite bitch of China. Totally unreliable.

 

[skunk works]

People laughed when I said that we should test nuke in space at far side of the sun, so that muricans can't detect it & I said this to you only

View attachment 186601

Economically a non starter.

 

[skunk works]

Bro, it was meant as an sarcastic comment.
Trying to provoke the decision makers to carry out at least a couple of 1 megaton tests.

A few members wanted to see an Indian mushroom cloud for memories sake. So let us carry out at least one 1 megaton above ground test.

It will be a bit polluting, the radiation but then the P5 have carried out many above ground tests in the past. They didn't care.

As far as the the topic of outsourcing tests is concerned. Unconfirmed reports say that the then apartheid regime in South Africa conducted an clandestine nuclear test for Israel. To validate an Israeli bomb design. Decades ago. You can Google it.

Everybody knows that the North Koreans are the most favorite bitch of China. Totally unreliable.

Read about the Vela incident, and also the crash of South African Airways flight 295. Both incidents very mysterious.

 

[Tridev123]

People laughed when I said that we should test nuke in space at far side of the sun, so that muricans can't detect it & I said this to you only

View attachment 186601

The idea is not totally science fiction.
Probably doable?.
But the technical challenges are enormous.
Firstly we need to demonstrate the capability to successfully land a rover on the Moon surface. And succeed more than once. Prove that the first success was not a fluke.

Why land a rover?. Because we would be using the same principle to safely land the supposed nuclear bomb package. Controlled descent. Using special parachutes and probably small rocket motors for 3 axis movement control. Certainly will be a complex manoeuvre.

In space so many things can go wrong. We don't a bundle of radioactive material drifting in space without control and in the worst case scenario reentering the earth's atmosphere.

I believe we are not yet one of the big boys of space exploration.
The US and Russia(Soviet Union) have experience going back decades.

Forget India, I doubt whether even China can successfully carry out an nuclear test on the Moon. Even though the Chinese seem to be a bit ahead of India in space.

 

[THESIS THORON]

The idea is not totally science fiction.
Probably doable?.
But the technical challenges are enormous.
Firstly we need to demonstrate the capability to successfully land a rover on the Moon surface. And succeed more than once. Prove that the first success was not a fluke.

Why land a rover?. Because we would be using the same principle to safely land the supposed nuclear bomb package. Controlled descent. Using special parachutes and probably small rocket motors for 3 axis movement control. Certainly will be a complex manoeuvre.

In space so many things can go wrong. We don't a bundle of radioactive material drifting in space without control and in the worst case scenario reentering the earth's atmosphere.

I believe we are not yet one of the big boys of space exploration.
The US and Russia(Soviet Union) have experience going back decades.

Forget India, I doubt whether even China can successfully carry out an nuclear test on the Moon. Even though the Chinese seem to be a bit ahead of India in space.

Breh, if you do so there are sats revolving around moon, and due to low gravity of the moon all the debrie will fly in space, and after some years they will rain back to moon making it impossible for atleast some time to make a permanent base on moon.

 

[SilentlAssassin265]

The idea is not totally science fiction.
Probably doable?.
But the technical challenges are enormous.
Firstly we need to demonstrate the capability to successfully land a rover on the Moon surface. And succeed more than once. Prove that the first success was not a fluke.

Why land a rover?. Because we would be using the same principle to safely land the supposed nuclear bomb package. Controlled descent. Using special parachutes and probably small rocket motors for 3 axis movement control. Certainly will be a complex manoeuvre.

In space so many things can go wrong. We don't a bundle of radioactive material drifting in space without control and in the worst case scenario reentering the earth's atmosphere.

I believe we are not yet one of the big boys of space exploration.
The US and Russia(Soviet Union) have experience going back decades.

Forget India, I doubt whether even China can successfully carry out an nuclear test on the Moon. Even though the Chinese seem to be a bit ahead of India in space.

Nobody will try nuclear testing in space as there are chances of malfunction in rocket. If the rocket explodes while taking off or in mid air, what will happen to the nuke?

 

[Indx TechStyle]

The idea is not totally science fiction.
Probably doable?.

Idea is not being entertained by any government, nor because of feasibility but because of its uselessness.

No country will gain anything by bursting a bomb on lunar surface for fun.

Firstly we need to demonstrate the capability to successfully land a rover on the Moon surface. And succeed more than once. Prove that the first success was not a fluke.

Why land a rover?. Because we would be using the same principle to safely land the supposed nuclear bomb package. Controlled descent. Using special parachutes and probably small rocket motors for 3 axis movement control. Certainly will be a complex manoeuvre.

A nuke won't necessarily require a soft landing. It's ignition would happen immediately after touching surface (in case of fission bomb which sends shockwaves through medium and moon doesn't have a medium of air like earth) or even few kilometres above surface (since Hydrogen bomb doesn't require a medium).

It is anyway so intelligent for a country to blast nukes on moon as if many hundreds if not thousands of probes and telescopes are inspecting every movement on moon today. As if world won't have sleepless nights when your nuclear weapon is earth's orbit and a single twitch could implant that nuke in earth orbit (or throw it on earth LOL). And asif blasting a nuke on moon provides some kind of power projection where there are no bases yet to do some kind of power rivalry. Or it won't throw away debris in lunar and earth orbit?

Blasting nukes in outerspace as a part of power projection is a mere a fanboy dream. Space research beyond earth's orbit is a very much civilian matter and countries won't hurt and try to avoid accidents against each others' space probes, stations and astronauts.

Global space programs don't have star wars dream with each others yet. They in fact collaborate together like a one world government. Beyond all the slendering and chest thumping on earth, they all use and provide each other with data, communications, spare parts, monitoring and support to each other there in deep space.

The US and Russia(Soviet Union) have experience going back decades.

Both US & Russia have lost their edge of industrial space capabilities since 90s. They are nowhere near they used to be.

Forget India, I doubt whether even China can successfully carry out an nuclear test on the Moon.

All 6 great space powers; US, Russia, China, India, France & Japan have more than sufficient technology to blast nukes on moon.

Even though the Chinese seem to be a bit ahead of India in space.

China is at least 15 years ahead of India in space. They are already where India would reach only after 2035.

 

[Vamsi]

Idea is not being entertained by any government, nor because of feasibility but because of its uselessness.

No country will gain anything by bursting a bomb on lunar surface for fun.

A nuke won't necessarily require a soft landing. It's ignition would happen immediately after touching surface (in case of fission bomb which sends shockwaves through medium and moon doesn't have a medium of air like earth) or even few kilometres above surface (since Hydrogen bomb doesn't require a medium).

It is anyway so intelligent for a country to blast nukes on moon as if many hundreds if not thousands of probes and telescopes are inspecting every movement on moon today. As if world won't have sleepless nights when your nuclear weapon is earth's orbit and a single twitch could implant that nuke in earth orbit (or throw it on earth LOL). And asif blasting a nuke on moon provides some kind of power projection where there are no bases yet to do some kind of power rivalry. Or it won't throw away debris in lunar and earth orbit?

Blasting nukes in outerspace as a part of power projection is a mere a fanboy dream. Space research beyond earth's orbit is a very much civilian matter and countries won't hurt and try to avoid accidents against each others' space probes, stations and astronauts.

Both US & Russia have lost their edge of industrial space capabilities since 90s. They are nowhere near they used to be.

All 6 great space powers; US, Russia, China, India, France & Japan have more than sufficient technology to blast nukes on moon.

China is at least 15 years ahead of India in space. They are already where India would reach only after 2035.

I never said we should test it on the moon....I said far side of the SUN,so that it's impossible for Ground based & space based systems to detect the explosion....we should send the nuke with a mother spacecraft, so that mother spacecraft detects the explosion & sends back data when it comes into our LoS.

Also I never said we should test it for FUN or for power projection.....we should test it to prove our designs

 

[Indx TechStyle]

I said far side of the SUN,so that it's impossible for Ground based & space based systems to detect the explosion

No, NASA and ESA have enough earth flybys, Venus and Solar orbiters, added with deep communication network to detect the explosion.

we should send the nuke with a mother spacecraft, so that mother spacecraft detects the explosion & sends back data when it comes into our LoS.

That would need an earth flyby and orbital maneuvers and it is not sensible to keep a nuke on a complex spacecraft.

Such a costly mission would be about hiding but you can't hide it first place from EUTEMSAT and DSN.

Also I never said we should test it for FUN or for power projection.....we should test it to prove our designs

No, we can record barely anything in space.
You need seismic data/real-time monitoring/extent of material damage/products of reaction to validate your tests. Off course you can't even record a fraction of parameters correctly in space than you can on earth and even in simulations.

 

[Tridev123]

Idea is not being entertained by any government, nor because of feasibility but because of its uselessness.

No country will gain anything by bursting a bomb on lunar surface for fun.

A nuke won't necessarily require a soft landing. It's ignition would happen immediately after touching surface (in case of fission bomb which sends shockwaves through medium and moon doesn't have a medium of air like earth) or even few kilometres above surface (since Hydrogen bomb doesn't require a medium).

It is anyway so intelligent for a country to blast nukes on moon as if many hundreds if not thousands of probes and telescopes are inspecting every movement on moon today. As if world won't have sleepless nights when your nuclear weapon is earth's orbit and a single twitch could implant that nuke in earth orbit (or throw it on earth LOL). And asif blasting a nuke on moon provides some kind of power projection where there are no bases yet to do some kind of power rivalry. Or it won't throw away debris in lunar and earth orbit?

Blasting nukes in outerspace as a part of power projection is a mere a fanboy dream. Space research beyond earth's orbit is a very much civilian matter and countries won't hurt and try to avoid accidents against each others' space probes, stations and astronauts.

Global space programs don't have star wars dream with each others yet. They in fact collaborate together like a one world government. Beyond all the slendering and chest thumping on earth, they all use and provide each other with data, communications, spare parts, monitoring and support to each other there in deep space.

Both US & Russia have lost their edge of industrial space capabilities since 90s. They are nowhere near they used to be.

All 6 great space powers; US, Russia, China, India, France & Japan have more than sufficient technology to blast nukes on moon.

China is at least 15 years ahead of India in space. They are already where India would reach only after 2035.

I agree with most of what you said.
Nobody is seriously thinking about testing nukes in space.
It was only an academic discussion.

I don't fully agree that the US and Russia have lost their edge in space technology.
I hope you are not suggesting that China has become the pre eminent space power on earth. Replacing the United States and Russia.

The US is still the largest economy in the world and can allocate sufficient resources for space research.
Russia suffers from an under performing economy. They simply don't have the money to fund all their space dreams. You will see them progress quite fast in space if their economy picks up and generates surpluses.

Lastly I think you will agree that India has probably done the least amount of testing amongst the community of established nuclear powers. The international community led by the US alliance has established an gridlock of treaties and arms control agreements to shackle emerging nuclear powers like India. Unfair. Suddenly nuke testing has become a dirty word.

Can any scientist guarantee that simulation would work 100%.The US had Cray Supercomputers since decades. Why did they test in spite of being able to use such Supercomputers to simulate an actual nuclear explosion.They tested as late as 1992.A period when they had the best Supercomputers in the world.

I agree that testing will involve costs and our short-term to medium term economic growth may suffer. But the reality is that any weakening of India will only help the Chinese who will first try to dominate Asia and then challenge the US in other areas. So the US may not necessarily heavily sanction India. For its own self interest.