Indian nuclear submarines

[THESIS THORON]

• • 5x 3M-54 Klub cruise missile per VLS tube for land attack, anti ship & anti sub
• crew size of about 90, high automation
• test depth of 600m substantially more than any US SSN
• Yasen is the quietest Russian sub till date

Whatever we get in the 2025 lease will get into our own SSNs operational by 2030-5 and Russians have already started work on 5th gen SSNs circa December 2014- all pointers to 4th gen Yasen class technology being shared with India.

according to tass we will get BRATSK ssn and bratsk is 1st gen akula.
how will it incorporate so many changes ??

is it possible we might get yasen not yasen m considering the hefty price ??

 

[MonaLazy]

according to tass we will get BRATSK ssn and bratsk is 1st gen akula.
how will it incorporate so many changes ??

is it possible we might get yasen not yasen m considering the hefty price ??

Can't say for sure but snort a heavy load of hopium. Here are 5 pointers-

1. Nuke subs are veiled in more secrecy than any other strategic asset. Disinformation is a part of that subterfuge. Heck! we keep changing the names of our nuke missiles under development & constantly understate the range of our nuke missiles.
2. $3.3B for a 1st gen Akula? when we paid $900M for the same 10 years ago? Does not sit right by the fiduciary standards of the great baniya nation that is India. Russia makes nuke subs for far cheaper than in the west so that lease money goes a long way. It is a deal that looks too bad to be true!
3. We have access to the best from Russia except when it runs into tech denial regimes. They have sold us the S-400 including missiles they would not sell the Chinese, are more than willing to sell us Su-57.
4. By the time we incorporate Chakra 3 tech in our own nuke subs, Russia will field 5th gen subs so even with Yasen-M tech we will be one generation behind Russia.
5. The refit will take 72 months with delivery only by first quarter of 2026- so there's enough money and time going into this lease

As a layman isn't it reasonable to hope Yasen (or even M?) level of tech in the next lease?

Why Russia is offering India old submarines

The offer of three or more ex-Soviet submarines in the short term plugs a gap in the missing numbers as the Indian Navy struggles to acquire new units

www.indiatoday.in

 

[Gessler]

Didn't we already get access to OK-650B in Chakra 2/Nerpa?

View attachment 113635

Chakra 3 may be OK-650V incorporating improvements in reactor design of the Yasen class or hoping against hope 4th gen KPM-6 of the Yasen-M ($3.3B is a lot of money more than INS Vikramaditya & is the only possible pointer in this direction)?

However, according to https://media.nti.org/pdfs/Replacing_HEU_in_Naval_Reactors_Report_FINAL.pdf Chakra -3 "was supposed to include elements of the newer Yasen class SSGN".

View attachment 113636

Is it reasonable to assume the following improvements of the Yasen are headed our way?

• Spherical bow sonar array, as is the US practice, replacing the cylindrical arrangement in MGK-501 Skat-MS of Chakra 2.
• Conformal flank arrays in sonar suite
• retractable towed array sonar
• new 4th gen nuke plant with partial electric drive (for low speeds)? Plus the reactor has 25-30 year core life- so no refueling for the life of sub
• 8x large diameter (for varied weapons load) VLS tubes located aft of sail
  • 3x sub launched Brahmos per VLS tube
  • 5x 3M-54 Klub cruise missile per VLS tube for land attack, anti ship & anti sub
• crew size of about 90, high automation
• test depth of 600m substantially more than any US SSN
• Yasen is the quietest Russian sub till date

Whatever we get in the 2025 lease will get into our own SSNs operational by 2030-5 and Russians have already started work on 5th gen SSNs circa December 2014- all pointers to 4th gen Yasen class technology being shared with India.

View attachment 113637

View attachment 113640

View attachment 113641

Source- https://lynceans.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Part-3_Russia-60-yrs-of-marine-nuc-power.pdf

Who knows.

But one thing that is sure to see is the bulk of technology transfer is happening in Chakra-3 deal, not in Chakra-2. The prices reflect that. It's likely Chakra-2 was only for gaining operational experience with the OK-650B PWR.

There is confirmation based on BARC releases that some form of shore-based test setup of B2 was either under construction, or even under operation as of 2018 (when we still had Chakra-2):

http://www.barc.gov.in/presentations/fddir18.pdf

So this could also mean that while the technology transfer happened earlier (with $900mn deal), the payments are being made now.

OR

it could indeed mean that whatever we are getting alongside Chakra-3 is several orders of magnitude more advanced than what we already got in 2011-2012 with Chakra-2.

 

[THESIS THORON]

Who knows.

But one thing that is sure to see is the bulk of technology transfer is happening in Chakra-3 deal, not in Chakra-2. The prices reflect that. It's likely Chakra-2 was only for gaining operational experience with the OK-650B PWR.

There is confirmation based on BARC releases that some form of shore-based test setup of B2 was either under construction, or even under operation as of 2018 (when we still had Chakra-2):

View attachment 113660

http://www.barc.gov.in/presentations/fddir18.pdf

So this could also mean that while the technology transfer happened earlier (with $900mn deal), the payments are being made now.

OR

it could indeed mean that whatever we are getting alongside Chakra-3 is several orders of magnitude more advanced than what we already got in 2011-2012 with Chakra-2.

second one seems more probable.

bec russia is already in cash crunch after collapse of soviet union, so why one will delay 1 billion dollars ??

 

[MonaLazy]

So this could also mean that while the technology transfer happened earlier (with $900mn deal), the payments are being made now.

BARC already has the B2 up and running & a use now, pay later almost never happens.

Also inclined to go with the 2nd possibility esp as 3x more sums are involved compared to previous lease.

 

[THESIS THORON]

we know that there are rumors of ins chakra 4 and news portal are reporting that navy might try to get yasen class sub.

written by sandeep unnithan

Why India could be leasing a second nuclear powered attack submarine from Russia

New Delhi signed a $3 billion lease deal with Moscow in 2019 for the Chakra-3 submarine. But with growing Chinese naval presence and delays in its own nuclear submarine project, India needs as many submarines as it can get

www.indiatoday.in

so, I think that we might use tech of akula class in 1 s5 and 3 ssn, remaining 2 s5 and 3ssn will be based on tech of yasen class

 

[THESIS THORON]

read this

The John Walker Spy Ring and The U.S. Navy's Biggest Betrayal - USNI News

Notorious spy John Walker died on Aug. 28, 2014. The following is a story outlining Walker’s spy ring from the June 2010 issue of U.S. Naval Institute’s Naval History Magazine with the original title: The Navy’s Biggest Betrayal. Twenty-five years ago the FBI finally shut off the biggest...

news.usni.org

 

[MonaLazy]

we have leased akula class or improved akula class ??

this will tell wether our subs will be quiter than chinkis upcoming type 095 subs.

Found a rather interesting video circa Dec 2019 by Captain Jive Turkey, USN

@38:28 K-328 Improved Akula "Leopard"
Dec 1992 Operational Northern Fleet

@58:41 K-152 Akula II
1992 Keel laid

If first of the improved Akula was operational in Dec 92- when only the keel was laid for Nerpa it is a given that Nerpa is indeed an improved Akula. Early 90s timeline also sits well with your graph for Improved Akula SSN.


Notables:

1. Corporatizing without anti-trust laws gives you corruption, lethargy and inefficieny.
2. Amur is the worst Russian ship yard for nuclear ship building- they thankfully no longer make nuke subs
3. Sevmash is the better ship building yard
4. Akulas regularly go out of service ~10 years after being operational for refit and repairs which last 6-10+ years!
5. Fires are pretty common and even the freon disbursing fire extinguisher is a lethal killer for humans- has killed more humans than anything else on this sub class
6. K-391 Bratsk is being modernized to Project 971M (also called Akula 3, M being for modernization) since 2014!
7. Russia often uses dry-docked sub parts to go in to newer classes of subs-
   1. K-480 Ak Bars -> K-551 Borei
   2. K-337 Cougar -> Project 955 Borei SSBN
   3. K-333 Lynx -> Project 955A Borei-II SSBN
8. Plenty of unflattering details about K-152 in there about wrecking the sonar dome/bow- hasn't been to sea in Nov 2019-Dec 2019

 

[Gessler]

Thread

 

[Vamsi]

Guys, can we expect the launch of S4 this month ??

 

[flanker99]

Guys, can we expect the launch of S4 this month ??

Dont think they will publish anything

 

[Nationalist Manasvi Papa]

Thread

Is this only a sub base or will any surface combatants be docked here too?
Also how many subs are we looking at here?

 

[Vamsi]

Dont think they will publish anything

When INS Arighat was launched, the news came out, hence expecting similar thing for S4

 

[Gessler]

Guys, can we expect the launch of S4 this month ??

Nobody knows the schedule down to the month in advance.

But I'd expect it to be sometime in 2022. Considering they built the shelter for it, which you'd only do once the sub is either already in the water or about to be slipped into water soon.

Is this only a sub base or will any surface combatants be docked here too?

If by surface combatants you mean DDGs & FFGs then most likely no. However some smaller surface vessels like patrol boats & the new Shallow-water ASW craft are likely to operate close by, so may get berthing here.

Also how many subs are we looking at here?

To start with, the 4 Arihants (including 2 'stretched' models). Followed by all other nuclear boats (including SSBNs, SSGNs & SSNs) eventually. So up to 13-14 as per current plans.

 

[Super Flanker]

Guys, can we expect the launch of S4 this month ??

Can't say much at this point ,most of this Information regarding our Nuclear Submarine programs are mostly kept under wraps. Can't say if they will announce or not. Let's hope For the Best. There is a possibility that it is already launched but we don't know about it. Honestly speaking,it is best in the interest of our National Security to keep all such things Under secrecy. Good day

 

[Super Flanker]

Hello everyone,I had a doubt regarding the Layout of the Missile Silos of INS ARIHANT. Will it be like this?

Or will it be something like this ,Side by Side Silo Arrangement ? What are your thoughts on it?

 

[Vinba]

Hello everyone,I had a doubt regarding the Layout of the Missile Silos of INS ARIHANT. Will it be like this?
View attachment 119118
Or will it be something like this ,Side by Side Silo Arrangement ? What are your thoughts on it?
View attachment 119119

Aren't the missiles four in a row with just the hatch covers alternating from left to right? Both those images above show that..

 

[Super Flanker]

Honest

Aren't the missiles four in a row with just the hatch covers alternating from left to right? Both those images above show that..

Yeah I guess that is what the layout of the Missile Silos of INS Arihant is like ,there are 4 silos in a row .I was initially confused about it. I just wanted to confirm It. Thanks for your information. Good day

 

[Gandaberunda]

Thread

Need to build another one on West coast in kawar/Goa...

 

[Super Flanker]

Need to build another one on West coast in kawar/Goa...

Build another one? Build what? Can you please tell me . I want to hear it.