Indian Navy MiG 29K

Aditya Ballal

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I don't think they are still in production it stopped long back why would we pay extra for it now ? May be russia can sell the second hand ones it operate .

But should have went for it earlier when they costed less than 30 mn or clubbed it with mmrca entirely then. Better lease a sqd of Rafale or operate the existing ones with 18 fighter jets each and eight in reserve and wait for tedbf
Are you sure Rafale's can fit on both lifts on Vikramaditya? I was told with some adjustments it may fit on the lifts of Vikrant (though it may be inconvenient or difficult to do so). Since Rafale's wings do not fold.
 

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Are you sure Rafale's can fit on both lifts on Vikramaditya? I was told with some adjustments it may fit on the lifts of Vikrant (though it may be inconvenient or difficult to do so). Since Rafale's wings do not fold.
Question is who will fund those adjustments? IN is open to leasing Rafael M. Since, Dassualt Aviation won't have unused Rafael's with them, only source is French Navy. Now in a very unlikely scenarion if we consider that French Navy do lease some of their in-service Rafael's with IN, they still wouldn't allow any modification of the airframe to suit IN needs.
Alternatively, if IN want brand new Rafael's with modifications, it will probably cost a fortune.
 

Aditya Ballal

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Question is who will fund those adjustments? IN is open to leasing Rafael M. Since, Dassualt Aviation won't have unused Rafael's with them, only source is French Navy. Now in a very unlikely scenarion if we consider that French Navy do lease some of their in-service Rafael's with IN, they still wouldn't allow any modification of the airframe to suit IN needs.
Alternatively, if IN want brand new Rafael's with modifications, it will probably cost a fortune.
IIRC, on another forum, a retired navy pilot said that Rafale M can fit on the lifts of Vikrant if it is parked diagonally but will be difficult to maneuver it during high intensity ops n all and in the end problems caused may not be worth the trouble taken.
 

Aditya Ballal

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Would it be feasible to build another Vikrant class carrier with some improvements if needed and perhaps an increment in size or possibly removing the Ski ramp and introducing a CATOBAR version instead of a complete redesign for INS Vishal or will it become another hodge podge like Vikramaditya? And maybe derive a helicopter carrier/amphibious assault ship from the Vikrant class, if I'm not mistaken are derived from aircraft carriers?
 

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Are you sure Rafale's can fit on both lifts on Vikramaditya? I was told with some adjustments it may fit on the lifts of Vikrant (though it may be inconvenient or difficult to do so). Since Rafale's wings do not fold.
There are enough MIGs for Adm Gorshkov/vikramaditya . We will be leasing only for Vikrant.

Rafale can fit in the num. will be less though anyway not needed unless it's for Vikrant. One thing that Rafale will need is uprated engine to carry more load.
 

Aditya Ballal

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There are enough MIGs for Adm Gorshkov/vikramaditya . We will be leasing only for Vikrant.

Rafale can fit in the num. will be less though anyway not needed unless it's for Vikrant. One thing that Rafale will need is uprated engine to carry more load.
IIRC, on another forum, a retired navy pilot said that Rafale M can fit on the lifts of Vikrant if it is parked diagonally but will be difficult to maneuver it during high intensity ops n all and in the end problems caused may not be worth the trouble taken.
Rafale M will still have many problems and struggles maneuvering around INS Vikrant within the hangars and lifts due to non-folding wings, though it may fit it will still have many constraints.
 

Flying Dagger

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Would it be feasible to build another Vikrant class carrier with some improvements if needed and perhaps an increment in size or possibly removing the Ski ramp and introducing a CATOBAR version instead of a complete redesign for INS Vishal or will it become another hodge podge like Vikramaditya? And maybe derive a helicopter carrier/amphibious assault ship from the Vikrant class, if I'm not mistaken are derived from aircraft carriers?
To be honest we should have gone for the 65-70 000 T class from the beginning with help from UK /France but since now we have Vikrant the next one should be bigger being able to carry more fighter jets and weapon.

And I wish we will be able to have a full nuclear carrier battle group destroyer submarine frigates carrier etc. We should aim for it now we do have the tech fund and foreign companies willing to aid.
 

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Rafale M will still have many problems and struggles maneuvering around INS Vikrant within the hangars and lifts due to non-folding wings, though it may fit it will still have many constraints.
That can be managed they may not be able to carry as many Rafale as mig 29s but then the better serviceability rate and capabilities will make up for it. It's better to carry 16-18 Rafale then 20-22 Mig 29s.
 

Aniruddha Mulay

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That can be managed they may not be able to carry as many Rafale as mig 29s but then the better serviceability rate and capabilities will make up for it. It's better to carry 16-18 Rafale then 20-22 Mig 29s.
I wouldn't place my bets so high on the Rafale M serviceability.
Even the French Navy and French Air Force Rafales have availability rates less than 50%
 

Trololo

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I wouldn't place my bets so high on the Rafale M serviceability.
Even the French Navy and French Air Force Rafales have availability rates less than 50%
Honestly naval aircrafts are more maintenance heavy. So you need large numbers and deep pockets to keep carrier borne aircraft up and running at good service rates. Currently only USN can do so. If at this point numbers are necessary for IN then the best foot forward will be to buy another squadron of 29Ks and keep VKD and IAC-1 running in full operation tempo until TEDBF induction starts from the end of the decade. Once that happens we can move over the MiGs to land based bases which the IN can operate. For now a cheap and practical solution for under 250 million dollars is another squadron of MiG 29ks
 

omaebakabaka

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Honestly naval aircrafts are more maintenance heavy. So you need large numbers and deep pockets to keep carrier borne aircraft up and running at good service rates. Currently only USN can do so. If at this point numbers are necessary for IN then the best foot forward will be to buy another squadron of 29Ks and keep VKD and IAC-1 running in full operation tempo until TEDBF induction starts from the end of the decade. Once that happens we can move over the MiGs to land based bases which the IN can operate. For now a cheap and practical solution for under 250 million dollars is another squadron of MiG 29ks
Get the 29s for IN and get more Rafales for IAF....best bang for the buck and increased potency overall and wait till ted comes along. Agree we need nuke powered carrier but not super carrier....enlarged degaulle at most putting out 60 to 70t
 
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Trololo

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Get the 29s for IN and get more Rafales for IAF....best bang for the buck and increased potency overall and wait till ted comes along. Agree we need nuke powered carrier but not super carrier....enlarged degaulle at most putting out 60 to 70t
Yes. More 29Ks for the Navy means that they have a full complement of aircraft. Localization of parts and spares by domestic industry or striking right deals with the Russians for a PBL can be a good move. IMO the Russians can be "convinced" in this regard to ensure good availability for our MiGs.

More Rafales for IAF definitely. At least another 2-3 squadrons.

As TEDBFs start rolling in, MiG 29Ks should be put on the shore and especially in frontline bases to be manned by IN teams. IN, like the IAF, should also carry out CAPs and strike roles over land from land bases in the country. I am also of the opinion of upgrading MiG 29Ks to the hilt with all the MWF goodies as well.

Supercarriers are a great idea if there is adequate protection for it. That means a large CBG flotilla and nuke attack submarines, along with large number of aircraft. Else they are sitting ducks.
 

omaebakabaka

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Supercarriers are a great idea if there is adequate protection for it. That means a large CBG flotilla and nuke attack submarines, along with large number of aircraft. Else they are sitting ducks.
Ya, when we have an empire to protect they might become instruments of some kind but right now, we are not even defending last remnants of our civilization desperately. I like degaulle better overall of all the carriers....it could use a bit of enlargement
 

Flying Dagger

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I wouldn't place my bets so high on the Rafale M serviceability.
Even the French Navy and French Air Force Rafales have availability rates less than 50%
You are referring to 2016 report which mentioned 54 % around. It's been increased now.

The reason for low availability rate had nothing to do with aircraft but the cost to maintain which French navy didn't spent as they face no direct threat from anyone.
 

Dark Sorrow

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Rafale M won't fit in IAC-1. TEDBF is designed for VKD and IAC-1. Till TEDBF comes its the MiG 29K.
The problem is navy has serious issues with Mig-29K specially its serviceability. The RD-33 engines have lot of problems.
 

omaebakabaka

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The problem is navy has serious issues with Mig-29K specially its serviceability. The RD-33 engines have lot of problems.
I don't think this is true, this kinda spread like wild fire....yes rd-33's are not the best know for service life but the overall availability is not bad and certainly not that concerning. Not like we have ton of choices considering how our indigenous roll out pace being close to crawl and walk speeds than running speed....
 

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