Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[Indx TechStyle]

Does India Have any Naval Engines Or Radars

Soooo many!!!!
We use a mix of imported and indigenous ones.

 

[Prayash]

"kunal1123, post: 1267656, member: 22556"]VK Saraswat Comes Down On Navy Selecting Grippen For LCA Navy

Hitting hard on the latest decision of the Indian Navy seeking to acquire 57 Gripen aircraft instead of the Naval variant of the indigenously grown Light Combat aircraft Tejas,Niti Ayog member and former head of DRDO, Dr. VK Saraswat today said lack of information had led to this foreign acquisition proposal.
Speaking at the inaugural function of the three-day international symposium connected with Aero India, Dr Saraswat said that the Mark II version of LCA and the Gripen carry the same engine and the same thrust power. ''It defied logic and people were less informed'' he said regretting the Naval choice for Gripen.''All kind of bad mouthing is hurled on us'' he said. Indian Navy had recently rejected LCA Naval variant and opted to go in for 57 Gripen aircraft for its air operations.
He said though countries speak about free market economy, when coming to transfer of technology some countries are selective. ''Even though we had signed the MTCR agreement, we will still be hit by technology denial by some countries which do not want India to get the latest technology''.
Dr Saraswat referring to the technological advances the country had made said that the time has come for India to collaborate strongly with the private sector which should also enhance its research and development spending. Only such collaborations would help India to get the latest technology well in time and with rightsize of investment.
With Inputs from Agencies

http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2017/02/vk-saraswat-comes-down-on-navy.html


do any of u have any info when navy selected gripen for it's air operation ............. is it out
[/QUOTE]
Grippen selected but the tender was for

Don't know why , but I don't really like this SAAB , Specially giving Gripen priority which going to be NG version will surely put doubt on Tejas quality in export market if we ever consider this . Tejas can surly send Gripens export ambition along with intention to replace all existing Mig 21 back to Sweden and can be great export success only if we shows the world that worlds 4th largest airwing trust it.
It will be very bad move , seems Rajib Gandhi era bureaucrats still lobbying for corrupt Sweden and it's 3rd class company whose contribution to Gripen even less that our Indigenous contribution in Tejas .
God sve our country from these mafias.

Agree with u, i think tejas is a competitor for grippen. But i think grippen navy is for vikrant follow up ac, cuz there is no logic in having this aircraft in ins vishal

 

[Hemu Vikram Aditya]

Soooo many!!!!
We use a mix of imported and indigenous ones.

Does INS Kolkata use one ................

 

[Scrutator]

For warships(including aircraft carriers) I have an idea. Instead of flying platforms (helicopter or airplanes with AEW&CS radars) that guzzle fuel and don't give 24/7 coverage, a high powered tethered drone (quad or octo copter) should be employed, perhaps 10,000ft-15,000 ft above the ship! The drone can carry an AESA radar and optical/thermal scanners.The drone will be continuously powered by the ship (and also run a fibre optic cable from the sensors down to the ship) - this will give round the clock coverage!!! These will be dirt cheap and employable on all Frigates, Corvettes, Destroyers and Offshore Patrol boats (both Navy and Coast guard)!!! This is similar to the Aerostats (Nakshatra) that IAF intends to deploy along the borders - but I feel aerostats are too big/clumsy to be carried by ships, where in fact the quad/octo copters would be compact and really cheap and easily maintainable on board!!!

There are currently 75+ large ships (1000+ tonnes) that might qualify for such tethered drones, and in the next few years that number will be 100+. If each of these ships were to have say 250 kms radius of coverage via the tethered drones then just imagine how much of the skies and seas/oceans will be under coverage!!!

Smaller drones (with lesser radar coverage) could be put on some 100+ other smaller patrol boats (200+ tons) of Navy and Coast guard too!!!

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Does INS Kolkata use one ................

Yes, again a mix!
Powerplants

• Combined gas and gas system: Twin Zorya M36E gas turbine plants with 4 × DT-59 reversible gas turbines and 2 × RG-54 gearboxes
• 2 × Bergen/GRSE KVM-diesel engines, 9,900 hp (7,400 kW) each
• 4 × 1 MWe Wärtsilä WCM-1000 generator sets driving Cummins KTA50G3 engines and Kirloskar 1 MV AC generators

Radar, Sonar & other EW tracking systems:

• IAI EL/M-2248 MF-STAR S-bandAESA multi-function radar[5]
• IAI EL/M-2238 L-band STAR surveillance radar
• Thales LW-08 D-band air search radar[6]
• BEL HUMSA-NG bow sonar
• BEL Nagin active towed array sonar[7]
• BEL Electronic Modular Command & Control Applications (EMCCA Mk4)/CMS15A combat management system[5]

 

[Hemu Vikram Aditya]

Yes, again a mix!
Powerplants

• Combined gas and gas system: Twin Zorya M36E gas turbine plants with 4 × DT-59 reversible gas turbines and 2 × RG-54 gearboxes
• 2 × Bergen/GRSE KVM-diesel engines, 9,900 hp (7,400 kW) each
• 4 × 1 MWe Wärtsilä WCM-1000 generator sets driving Cummins KTA50G3 engines and Kirloskar 1 MV AC generators

Radar, Sonar & other EW tracking systems:

• IAI EL/M-2248 MF-STAR S-bandAESA multi-function radar[5]
• IAI EL/M-2238 L-band STAR surveillance radar
• Thales LW-08 D-band air search radar[6]
• BEL HUMSA-NG bow sonar
• BEL Nagin active towed array sonar[7]
• BEL Electronic Modular Command & Control Applications (EMCCA Mk4)/CMS15A combat management system[5]

WTF INDIA dosent have any s band radar
Unless we Get Indeginized In RADAR AND ENGINE AND OTHER CORE TECHS it would hurt us
though I dont care that much for the armaments

 

[indiandefencefan]

For warships(including aircraft carriers) I have an idea. Instead of flying platforms (helicopter or airplanes with AEW&CS radars) that guzzle fuel and don't give 24/7 coverage, a high powered tethered drone (quad or octo copter) should be employed, perhaps 10,000ft-15,000 ft above the ship! The drone can carry an AESA radar and optical/thermal scanners.The drone will be continuously powered by the ship (and also run a fibre optic cable from the sensors down to the ship) - this will give round the clock coverage!!! These will be dirt cheap and employable on all Frigates, Corvettes, Destroyers and Offshore Patrol boats (both Navy and Coast guard)!!! This is similar to the Aerostats (Nakshatra) that IAF intends to deploy along the borders - but I feel aerostats are too big/clumsy to be carried by ships, where in fact the quad/octo copters would be compact and really cheap and easily maintainable on board!!!

There are currently 75+ large ships (1000+ tonnes) that might qualify for such tethered drones, and in the next few years that number will be 100+. If each of these ships were to have say 250 kms radius of coverage via the tethered drones then just imagine how much of the skies and seas/oceans will be under coverage!!!

Smaller drones (with lesser radar coverage) could be put on some 100+ other smaller patrol boats (200+ tons) of Navy and Coast guard too!!!

Interesting proposition but I see a flaw in the theory.

The advantage of a carrier-borne AWACS is that if a ship's radar range is 300 kms, then the AWACS can fly ahead and potentially increase it to 500kms.

For a tethered drone to do the same even with a smaller range with 360 degrees coverage, the radar it needs to carry to potentially give a 500 km range needs to be massive to the point that it will be unsustainable for even a high power drone to carry. Just look at the Kolkata's MF-Star radar which gives a 250+ km range and is huge in size.

Thus while a tethered drone is possible it cannot provide any benefit vis a vis an AWACS because it will be to large to efficiently increase radar range and will put a stress on the ship's power as it will need to power 2 high power radars.

 

[Scrutator]

Interesting proposition but I see a flaw in the theory.

The advantage of a carrier-borne AWACS is that if a ship's radar range is 300 kms, then the AWACS can fly ahead and potentially increase it to 500kms.

For a tethered drone to do the same even with a smaller range with 360 degrees coverage, the radar it needs to carry to potentially give a 500 km range needs to be massive to the point that it will be unsustainable for even a high power drone to carry. Just look at the Kolkata's MF-Star radar which gives a 250+ km range and is huge in size.

Thus while a tethered drone is possible it cannot provide any benefit vis a vis an AWACS because it will be to large to efficiently increase radar range and will put a stress on the ship's power as it will need to power 2 high power radars.

The aircraft carrier could still carry an AEW&CS aircraft (if they can - but neither Vikrant nor Vikramaditya can do that!!!). Helicopter based AEW&CS is the only option for Vikrant and Vikramaditya - which could still be used in conjunction with the Tethered drone option. No ship based flying AEW&CS platform can give you 24/7 coverage!!! That's a fact!! They might be of help a couple of hours a day!!!

No radar (however powerful) that is fixed to the ship is a substitute for a high altitude radar. MF-Star may have 250+ km range but it can only see (objects close to the water surface) about 10-15 kms till the horizon, beyond which the earth curves away!! Aircraft and anti-ship missiles (including Brahmos) make use of this fact. They start flying at high altitude and as they approach the ship they keep lowering their altitude until they're skimming the surface of the sea, so that they're invisible to the ship's radar until the aircraft/anti-ship missile is just few tens of kilometers away!!! Further the ship's radar cannot see other hostile ships beyond the horizon!!

Even a low powered radar and a decent electro/optic pod would provide the ship an immensely increase the coverage both on the surface and the 'low altitude sky' that's hidden beyond the horizon!

Airborne AEW&CS platforms (rotary or fixed winged), if available could still be used to peek at farther distances. But continuous coverage via Tethered drone is a force mulitiplier!!! Also, not all ships can carry a helo with AEW&CS radar!!!

Power maybe scarce on a fighter jet, but on a 2000+ tonne ship power is a plenty (especially when you're talking about an additional radar and a drone!!!). In the worst case even if the ship's speed is lowered by a knot (even though unlikely), it is nothing compared to the advantage that the high altitude radar/sensors will provide.

 

[indiandefencefan]

The aircraft carrier could still carry an AEW&CS aircraft (if they can - but neither Vikrant nor Vikramaditya can do that!!!). Helicopter based AEW&CS is the only option for Vikrant and Vikramaditya - which could still be used in conjunction with the Tethered drone option. No ship based flying AEW&CS platform can give you 24/7 coverage!!! That's a fact!! They might be of help a couple of hours a day!!!

No radar (however powerful) that is fixed to the ship is a substitute for a high altitude radar. MF-Star may have 250+ km range but it can only see (objects close to the water surface) about 10-15 kms till the horizon, beyond which the earth curves away!! Aircraft and anti-ship missiles (including Brahmos) make use of this fact. They start flying at high altitude and as they approach the ship they keep lowering their altitude until they're skimming the surface of the sea, so that they're invisible to the ship's radar until the aircraft/anti-ship missile is just few tens of kilometers away!!! Further the ship's radar cannot see other hostile ships beyond the horizon!!

Even a low powered radar and a decent electro/optic pod would provide the ship an immensely increase the coverage both on the surface and the 'low altitude sky' that's hidden beyond the horizon!

Airborne AEW&CS platforms (rotary or fixed winged), if available could still be used to peek at farther distances. But continuous coverage via Tethered drone is a force mulitiplier!!! Also, not all ships can carry a helo with AEW&CS radar!!!

Power maybe scarce on a fighter jet, but on a 2000+ tonne ship power is a plenty (especially when you're talking about an additional radar and a drone!!!). In the worst case even if the ship's speed is lowered by a knot (even though unlikely), it is nothing compared to the advantage that the high altitude radar/sensors will provide.

I was answering with respect to an AC which carries AWACS but what you say is also pretty sound as well especially with respect to Vikramaditya/Vikrant.
Unfortunately ideas such as these can only be verified if they tested out in the field.
Lets hope we see drone projects like these in future from DRDO.

Till then check out this link. Its about radars on UAVs you might enjoy it.
https://gcn.com/blogs/emerging-tech/2014/06/uav-radar-sense-and-avoid.aspx

 

[Scrutator]

I was answering with respect to an AC which carries AWACS but what you say is also pretty sound as well especially with respect to Vikramaditya/Vikrant.
Unfortunately ideas such as these can only be verified if they tested out in the field.
Lets hope we see drone projects like these in future from DRDO.

Till then check out this link. Its about radars on UAVs you might enjoy it.
https://gcn.com/blogs/emerging-tech/2014/06/uav-radar-sense-and-avoid.aspx

I too wish DRDO could build a prototype and test this out. With about 100+ large ships, the surface and sky coverage the Navy/CoastGuard could get is immense. Not to mention the ships being able to detect low flying anti-ship missiles/aircrafts and hostile ships way ahead in time during combat!!!

 

[kunal1123]

anybody surprised ................................................???????:biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2:

 

[tharun]

anybody surprised ................................................???????:biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2:

Nope as expected..................................................RIP LCA and gripen

 

[kunal1123]

Nope as expected..................................................RIP LCA and gripen

well i will rip for gripen but not for lca. As we know Indian version have tendency to get back to life from ICU...............

 

[Scrutator]

anybody surprised ................................................???????:biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2:

Indian Navy is still operating with the old doctrine of needing only twin engined aircraft for carriers!! With today's reliability of jet engines, single engined jets are pretty good too!!!

That said, IN should opt for Rafales....simply because Rafales will already be in Indian arsenal. IAF/IN can maintain common MRO and weapons package (Mica, Meteor etc..).
F18 (even though a very proven aircraft) is old, and will come with its own radar and weapons package....Not effective at all!!!

 

[Prayash]

Dassault Aviation eyes naval contract for 57 fighter jets

 

[Scrutator]

One very interesting DRDO project that hasn't gotten much attention among the media or the fanboys is "
Supersonic Missile Assisted Release of Torpedo (SMART)".

I have for long lamented at the futility of launching torpedos from ships. Torpedos move very sluggishly inside the water (around 60 km/h to 100 km/h). Most Submarines/Warships move at around 3/4 that speed - the small speed advantage is almost useless to catch-up to the target that may be located few tens of kms away from the launching platform. Further it gives the target submarine/ship a lot of time to deploy counter measures and chart an escape route!!

US Navy has had a great solution since the 1960s called ASROC (anti-submarine rocket). Essentially it's a rocket/missile with a short-range torpedos as its warhead. This allows the rocket/missile to fly the torpedo in the air (at about 10 times the speed that it would normally travel inside the water) and then drop the torpedo right over the area where the submarine is present. The Submarine has very less time to detect and maneuver away from the attacking torpedo.

I am very glad to see that DRDO has been funded (Rs. 340 crore) to develop a similar missile assisted torpedo. In all probability they'll strap the TAL/Shyena over a rocket/missile. Exciting!!

 

[Prashant12]

Indian Navy Concludes First Contract Under Buy and Make (Indian) Category

Indian Navy Concludes First Contract Under Buy and Make (Indian) Category A contract between Nova Integrated Systems Ltd and Indian Navy for procurement of Surface Surveillance Radars (SSR) has been concluded today. This is the first contract concluded under the Buy and Make (Indian) Category, in line with the Government’s ‘Make in India’ initiative. Nova Integrated Systems Ltd, a fully owned subsidiary of Tata Advanced System Ltd, would indigenously manufacture these state-of-the-art radars in collaboration with Terma, Denmark. This contract marks the entry of Indian Private Industry in production of hi-tech sensors for the Indian Navy. Procurement of SSR is a part of Indian Navy’s Plan for modernisation of its Fleets, and these radars would also be installed onboard the ships under construction. The government’s drive to modernise the Armed Forces and build an Indian Defence Industrial Base with participation of Private Industry gets a major boost with the signing of this contract today.

The $30 million (Rs 200 crore) deal is for 24 #MakeInIndia TERMA Scanter 6000 class radars for under-construction @IndianNavy warships.


https://twitter.com/livefist

 

[Prashant12]

INS Betwa, the ship that had toppled over, is now back on even keel. Navy confident that it will be operational again by April 2018.

 

[Prashant12]

INS Betwa on Even Keel: to be Fully Operational by Apr 2018

INS Betwa, a P-16A Class frigate has been made upright by the unstinted efforts put in by the Naval Dockyard, Mumbai and the salvage firm M/s Resolve Marine, specially contracted for the operation. It may be recalled that, the ship which was undergoing major repairs, had keeled on to her side during her undocking on 05 Dec 2016.

The salvage operations were progressed on a war footing and the initial stabilisation of the ship was achieved by 29 Dec 2016. The complete salvage operation involving complex hydrodynamic calculations and rigging up of intricate measuring and monitoring systems was completed in less than two months.

As the ship was undergoing major refit and mid-life up-gradation since Apr 2016, majority of the equipment/ machinery had already been removed for routine servicing/ replacement with upgraded equipment.

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/mbErel.aspx?relid=158657

 

[Spectribution]

INS Betwa on Even Keel: to be Fully Operational by Apr 2018

INS Betwa, a P-16A Class frigate has been made upright by the unstinted efforts put in by the Naval Dockyard, Mumbai and the salvage firm M/s Resolve Marine, specially contracted for the operation. It may be recalled that, the ship which was undergoing major repairs, had keeled on to her side during her undocking on 05 Dec 2016.

The salvage operations were progressed on a war footing and the initial stabilisation of the ship was achieved by 29 Dec 2016. The complete salvage operation involving complex hydrodynamic calculations and rigging up of intricate measuring and monitoring systems was completed in less than two months.

As the ship was undergoing major refit and mid-life up-gradation since Apr 2016, majority of the equipment/ machinery had already been removed for routine servicing/ replacement with upgraded equipment.

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/mbErel.aspx?relid=158657

All the media houses wanted her scrapped like INS Sindhurakshak. Bloody turncoats.