Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[abingdonboy]

It really is ridiculous not to have a follow on destroyer class ready to enter production as soon as the 4th is entering sea trails. The gap between P15B and P18(?) is completely needless and myopic

 

[abingdonboy]

View attachment 202159
Regular sat images time .

So boys, here you can see ins imphal with its mf star , next to it is one of nilgir class , third is ins surat, most likely as the image is old ,it would be a bit more fitted lastly you have rest tow of nilgiri class ,both hlgot their mast , now being fitted out

What’s the latest sea trail dates for P17As? They seem quite a bit away from that despite already being ~6 months behind their original date

 

[v952010]

source

 

[Fatalis]

It really is ridiculous not to have a follow on destroyer class ready to enter production as soon as the 4th is entering sea trails. The gap between P15B and P18(?) is completely needless and myopic

No new orders of P-15 series has more to do with Zorya gas turbines. As of now we are going with GE2500 for P-17A and most probably use MT-30 on new surface combatants. To compensate for P-15C we will most probably get P-17AU.

 

[Fatalis]

By ~2026 we will be having 7 AESA destroyers in the west and 7 AESA frigates in the east.

 

[Lonewolf]

What’s the latest sea trail dates for P17As? They seem quite a bit away from that despite already being ~6 months behind their original date

This image is most probably 3-4 month old ,so you can expect trials this summer

 

[Vamsi]

This image is most probably 3-4 month old ,so you can expect trials this summer

any chances of P-17As getting VL-SRSAM?

 

[abingdonboy]

any chances of P-17As getting VL-SRSAM?

Later down the road sure but they definitely won’t be delivered with it

 

[abingdonboy]

By ~2026 we will be having 7 AESA destroyers in the west and 7 AESA frigates in the east.

More importantly- MFSTAR+MRSAM+BRAHMOS. That’s quite a combination

7+7 is quite a modest fleet though, a shame they went for the additional 11356 (literally just to do putin a favour) instead of 4-5 additional P17A

the gap from the last DDG/FFG (mid 2020s) to the next gens (NGD, NGF) hitting the water is a real concern though, it’ll be at least a decade imo and in that time the PLA(N) won’t miss even a single year without major deliveries.

P!ss poor planning and to compound if they won’t be adding and (more) SSK or SSN in the same period. 2026- ~2035 is shaping up to be a lost decade, some additional P17s/P75 (if they happen) is just a band aid, any idiot with a spreadsheet could’ve figured this out 5 years ago, what does the IN expect to spend their CAPEX on after the P17As?

 

[Adm Kenobi]

I don’t know why the IN doesn’t spec at least the last batch with MFSTAR, MRSAM/BARAK-8 etc.

Those Talwar (batch 4) are still Russian design and IP, it won't feature an Indian CMS & you'd need to bring Russia & Israel on the same table for the integration of Israel's top systems. Not an easy task.

It really is ridiculous not to have a follow on destroyer class ready to enter production as soon as the 4th is entering sea trails. The gap between P15B and P18(?) is completely needless and myopic

Agreed, NGD should have been funded in the mid-2010s itself, & there's no news on the navy taking the file to govt for approval, bet IN hasn't even finalised what they want under "NGD" with all the new systems under development.

No new orders of P-15 series has more to do with Zorya gas turbines. As of now we are going with GE2500 for P-17A and most probably use MT-30 on new surface combatants. To compensate for P-15C we will most probably get P-17AU.

No, P-15B was always going to be followed by a larger hull, there's no such thing as "P-15C", the hull is too small for the next generation of systems. P-15A/B can only be upgraded to a point.

P!ss poor planning and to compound if they won’t be adding and (more) SSK or SSN in the same period. 2026- ~2035 is shaping up to be a lost decade

Disagree, a lot will happen in that time period.

some additional P17s/P75 (if they happen) is just a band aid

Additional P17A (r/o) will not be some "band-aid sol.". It will bring real capability and in numbers (7).

what does the IN expect to spend their CAPEX on after the P17As?

NGMVs, NGC, P17A r/o, FSS, funding TEDBF development, coastal batteries, NUH, additional P-8I, UAV for maritime patrol (foreign & indigenous), refit of P-17, P-28, P-15A & Talwar batch 2 etcetera, possible expansion of A&N, IAC-2, NGD & SSN in the later half of this decade, UUVs (Including heavier ones), funding the development of several other systems, spares, LPD etcetera. The size of IN will also increase, so CAPEX won't increase at a high rate, as the cost to upkeep the large fleet & budget allocated to salaries & pension will increase as a good rate too.

 

[abingdonboy]

Those Talwar (batch 4) are still Russian design and IP, it won't feature an Indian CMS & you'd need to bring Russia & Israel on the same table for the integration of Israel's top systems. Not an easy task.

Agreed, NGD should have been funded in the mid-2010s itself, & there's no news on the navy taking the file to govt for approval, bet IN hasn't even finalised what they want under "NGD" with all the new systems under development.

No, P-15B was always going to be followed by a larger hull, there's no such thing as "P-15C", the hull is too small for the next generation of systems. P-15A/B can only be upgraded to a point.

Disagree, a lot will happen in that time period.

Additional P17A (r/o) will not be some "band-aid sol.". It will bring real capability and in numbers (7).


NGMVs, NGC, P17A r/o, FSS, funding TEDBF development, coastal batteries, NUH, additional P-8I, UAV for maritime patrol (foreign & indigenous), refit of P-17, P-28, P-15A & Talwar batch 2 etcetera, possible expansion of A&N, IAC-2, NGD & SSN in the later half of this decade, UUVs (Including heavier ones), funding the development of several other systems, spares, LPD etcetera. The size of IN will also increase, so CAPEX won't increase at a high rate, as the cost to upkeep the large fleet & budget allocated to salaries & pension will increase as a good rate too.

1) like I said- Talwars especially the current batch are a terrible deal for the IN, they will barely have a contemporary component come the time they are delivered. Taking the stock Soviet design and adding exactly 0 modern features whilst demanding the world from domestic products is peak Indian military
2) they definitely have no idea what they want NGD to be and much of the tech they are likely hoping for (5) IEP, DEW, rail guns) is still far far from viable so I don’t see it getting cleared this side of ~2028
3) NGC are similar to NGD, no finalising of specs in the near future
4) 7 P17AU? And even if that’s the case unless keels are laid this year there will be a significant break in production of PCS for the IN
5) Almost everything on that list is a long way off (LHD, IAC-2, SSN) so won’t be funded much this side of 2030 or has been downsized (P8I, MQ9)

 

[jai jaganath]

Those Talwar (batch 4) are still Russian design and IP, it won't feature an Indian CMS & you'd need to bring Russia & Israel on the same table for the integration of Israel's top systems. Not an easy task.

Agreed, NGD should have been funded in the mid-2010s itself, & there's no news on the navy taking the file to govt for approval, bet IN hasn't even finalised what they want under "NGD" with all the new systems under development.

No, P-15B was always going to be followed by a larger hull, there's no such thing as "P-15C", the hull is too small for the next generation of systems. P-15A/B can only be upgraded to a point.

Disagree, a lot will happen in that time period.

Additional P17A (r/o) will not be some "band-aid sol.". It will bring real capability and in numbers (7).


NGMVs, NGC, P17A r/o, FSS, funding TEDBF development, coastal batteries, NUH, additional P-8I, UAV for maritime patrol (foreign & indigenous), refit of P-17, P-28, P-15A & Talwar batch 2 etcetera, possible expansion of A&N, IAC-2, NGD & SSN in the later half of this decade, UUVs (Including heavier ones), funding the development of several other systems, spares, LPD etcetera. The size of IN will also increase, so CAPEX won't increase at a high rate, as the cost to upkeep the large fleet & budget allocated to salaries & pension will increase as a good rate too.

What will be done in 2026-2035 period according to u bro

 

[Adm Kenobi]

1) like I said- Talwars especially the current batch are a terrible deal for the IN, they will barely have a contemporary component come the time they are delivered.

Never disagreed to this part.

Taking the stock Soviet design and adding exactly 0 modern features whilst demanding the world from domestic products is peak Indian military

1. Talwar is far from a stock Soviet design (Krivak)
2. IN hasn't always demanded the "best" from domestic developers, Navy had to compromise with its current destroyers, frigates & corvettes, which lack SRSAM because Trishul was shelved, considered importing a decade later (late 2010s) & is now waiting for VL-SRSAM (which IN fully supports), compromise with torpedo tubes with Shivalik, compromise on TAS with Kolkata, Shivalik (later fitted with an imported ATAS) and Kamorta. Waiting for Varunastra for surface combatants, & later AIP for Kalvari.
Some people now have the perception that IN "under arms" their warships, while the truth is there weren't any indigenous system ready that could fulfil the role of SRSAM, TAS, and >100km class SAM. Delhi & Shivalik for comparison came equipped with 96 & 64 missiles respectively (although some of them are outdated by current standards, but the point is about the numbers).

2) they definitely have no idea what they want NGD to be and much of the tech they are likely hoping for (5) IEP, DEW, rail guns) is still far far from viable so I don’t see it getting cleared this side of ~2028

I wouldn't add the word "definitely" and the phrase "have no idea". INS Anvesh is the first vessel with an Indian IFEP, rail guns is media BS, they wouldn't be asking for an 127mm under MAKE-1 if they were going to put some "rail gun" on *NGD*. As we have seen, systems don't need to be ready for the keel to be laid, compromises have been made in past, and will be made in future, part of procurement.

3) NGC are similar to NGD, no finalising of specs in the near future

Barring the part where it's already under design phase (in-house) and cleared by DAC? NGC is a lot closer than you think.

4) 7 P17AU? And even if that’s the case unless keels are laid this year there will be a significant break in production of PCS for the IN

Says who? Things don't move that fast, they need clearance from CCS to buy anything that costs >1000cr. & steel cutting in mid 20s is fine, especially given the fact that it won't be a replica of P-17A because govt (with IN) has put naval MF-STAR in positive indigenisation list, no more contracts will be signed for it. The positive indigenisation list thing couldn't have been anticipated by the navy b4 20s. All 7 can be delivered by ~mid 30s.

5) Almost everything on that list is a long way off (LHD, IAC-2, SSN) so won’t be funded much this side of 2030 or has been downsized (P8I, MQ9)

IN still has to pay for the design, material procurement, and you were quoting the period <2026- ~2035>.

 

[Adm Kenobi]

What will be done in 2026-2035 period according to u bro

0. Delivery of MRCBF (if procured)
1. Delivery of the last few P-17A & Talwar batch 4 frigates & ASW SWC.
2. 11 NG OPV & 6 NGMV are to be delivered in the quoted period.
3. 5 FSS by HSL.
4. NGC RFP is expected in 2024 by the shipyards, the order will follow soon (& L-1 to contract will be quicker than NGMV as the design will be made by WDB & not the shipyard) & no foreign vendors to worry about, delivery of the first few by mid-30s.
5. ALH & LUH under NUH
6. Procurement of Tapas/Rustom after it clears the trials, MQ9 deal isn't finalised, & foreign procurements are far more complex, so nothing on that.
7. P-17A repeat order (depends on CCS)
8. More MPA (could be P-8I or C-295, or a mix of both) (depends on govt.)
9. TEDBF taking off & landing on IAC.
10. Possible upgrade of P-17/A, P-15A/B, P-28, Talwar batch 2/3/4 with the systems they currently lack.
11. Expansion of ANC.
12. Development of UUVs (of various sizes), unmanned MCM.
13. Possible delivery (if lessons are learnt) of the first NGD & keel/launch of the remaining 4.
14. Keel and launch of IAC-2 (be it IAC-1 r/o or a large deck CATOBAR).
15. Construction of SSN & the boomers.
16. Possible approval/order/keel of thorough deck LPDs.
17. IN crossing >1L personnel.
18. Retirement of older vessels (given)
19. NGF?
20. Upgrading the rest of P-75 & life extensions of last 2-3 Sindhughosh class.
21. More "research vessels".
22. DBMRH
23. Unexpected things.

A lot can be done in 9 years.

 

[blackleaf]

1) like I said- Talwars especially the current batch are a terrible deal for the IN, they will barely have a contemporary component come the time they are delivered. Taking the stock Soviet design and adding exactly 0 modern features whilst demanding the world from domestic products is peak Indian military

Can the Talwars at least be upgraded with VLS Shtil or VL-SRSAM? That would still make then decent lower end frigates. Still overpriced by 100 to 200 million but good enough to handle lower threat missions.

 

[binayak95]

The Talwars always seemed like a bad deal to me, it’s not a surprise that much of the IN money seems to have gone to upgrade the Yantar shipyard, this is after massive delays and cost overruns for the original ships.

some have said they are a good deal now for the new batch of 4 11356s as they will be cheaper than the P17As but they’ll also be significantly less capable. I don’t know why the IN doesn’t spec at least the last batch with MFSTAR, MRSAM/BARAK-8 etc. when the 11356s are delivered in the middle of this decade they’ll pretty much be obsolete from the first day

Just another in a long tradition of keeping the Russian MIC afloat at the cost of the Indian taxpayer

The russians just have an excellent sense of timing, offering the 1135.6s right when we did not have sufficient domestic yard capability to have 2 concurrent ship designs under construction simultaneously.
At any rate, this is the last russian ship in service - and they'll provide an excellent second rate frigate alongside the 3 Brahmaputras.

 

[binayak95]

Can the Talwars at least be upgraded with VLS Shtil or VL-SRSAM? That would still make then decent lower end frigates. Still overpriced by 100 to 200 million but good enough to handle lower threat missions.

Thats a given.

 

[flanker99]

The russians just have an excellent sense of timing, offering the 1135.6s right when we did not have sufficient domestic yard capability to have 2 concurrent ship designs under construction simultaneously.
At any rate, this is the last russian ship in service - and they'll provide an excellent second rate frigate alongside the 3 Brahmaputras.

But will the new lot come with vls if not then why?

 

[binayak95]

0. Delivery of MRCBF (if procured)
1. Delivery of the last few P-17A & Talwar batch 4 frigates & ASW SWC.
2. 11 NG OPV & 6 NGMV are to be delivered in the quoted period.
3. 5 FSS by HSL.
4. NGC RFP is expected in 2024 by the shipyards, the order will follow soon (& L-1 to contract will be quicker than NGMV as the design will be made by WDB & not the shipyard) & no foreign vendors to worry about, delivery of the first few by mid-30s.
5. ALH & LUH under NUH
6. Procurement of Tapas/Rustom after it clears the trials, MQ9 deal isn't finalised, & foreign procurements are far more complex, so nothing on that.
7. P-17A repeat order (depends on CCS)
8. More MPA (could be P-8I or C-295, or a mix of both) (depends on govt.)
9. TEDBF taking off & landing on IAC.
10. Possible upgrade of P-17/A, P-15A/B, P-28, Talwar batch 2/3/4 with the systems they currently lack.
11. Expansion of ANC.
12. Development of UUVs (of various sizes), unmanned MCM.
13. Possible delivery (if lessons are learnt) of the first NGD & keel/launch of the remaining 4.
14. Keel and launch of IAC-2 (be it IAC-1 r/o or a large deck CATOBAR).
15. Construction of SSN & the boomers.
16. Possible approval/order/keel of thorough deck LPDs.
17. IN crossing >1L personnel.
18. Retirement of older vessels (given)
19. NGF?
20. Upgrading the rest of P-75 & life extensions of last 2-3 Sindhughosh class.
21. More "research vessels".
22. DBMRH
23. Unexpected things.

A lot can be done in 9 years.

The UUV and Mine Counter measure development cycle has already begun, as in research and prototypes are in the water already. Post 2025 expect to see massive numbers of domestic pvt UAVs, USVs, and UUVs.

 

[binayak95]

But will the new lot come with vls if not then why?

Yes they will