Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

Chinmoy

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binayak95

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Any reason as to why countries build heavy destroyers, specially for a navy that operates within a certain region.
Initially I thought range was the significant factor but Chinese type 55 has lesser range than us despite being heavier.
They are primary escort for CBGs. Thats the defined role for both the Type55 and the Ticos.
 

Corvus Splendens

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Any reason as to why countries build heavy destroyers, specially for a navy that operates within a certain region.
Initially I thought range was the significant factor but Chinese type 55 has lesser range than us despite being heavier.
SAM Battery. Total Area Denial over the fleet's immediate airspace. Japan is also looking at 15,000+ tonne ships for a similar role, albeit around their mainland and not expeditionary fleets.
 

binayak95

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This figure is for Australian F/A-18. They do calculate the Amortized Capital cost of the platform in their flight per hour calculation.
And AUSSIES are infamous for massive cost overruns on every single military unit. Take a look at their Hobart class and LHAs.. if you think Indian PSUs are inefficient, take a look at aussie.
 

Chinmoy

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Can someone explain this bakchodi to me? Why is GRSE outsourcing the construction of the ships to L&T, which it beat in the bid thanks to the L1 clause? Why not skip the middleman and directly give it to L&T? And look how clean the L&T shipyyard looks, compared to the Kolkata one of GRSE which resembles a slum
Because ASWSWC and SVL and manufactured under PPP model.
 

binayak95

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Ditto the U.K.- babudom+ small orders+insistence on bespoke updates

Sound familiar?
What? 16 ASWSWC, 7 P17As, three whole generations of destroyers (10) built on the same hull, same propulsion package and each an iteration of sensors and weapons doesnt scratch your itch to lambast at the military at the drop of a pin?

Heck, the only are where i criticise the IN is the VKD and MiG29K mess and submarines. But even in the latter, we have what - 3, perhaps 4 SSBNs already in the water?


And IN is unmatched when it comes to supporting pvt indurstry, with a very large number of R&D contracts handed out to pvt players since the last 3 years
 

Suryavanshi

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What? 16 ASWSWC, 7 P17As, three whole generations of destroyers (10) built on the same hull, same propulsion package and each an iteration of sensors and weapons doesnt scratch your itch to lambast at the military at the drop of a pin?

Heck, the only are where i criticise the IN is the VKD and MiG29K mess and submarines. But even in the latter, we have what - 3, perhaps 4 SSBNs already in the water?


And IN is unmatched when it comes to supporting pvt indurstry, with a very large number of R&D contracts handed out to pvt players since the last 3 years
What do you think is their plan going ahead with carrier project? Are we getting another Vikrant or we will go ahead with Vishal after some time gap of 4 to 5 years?
 

binayak95

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What do you think is their plan going ahead with carrier project? Are we getting another Vikrant or we will go ahead with Vishal after some time gap of 4 to 5 years?
Unknown - will depend on how things turn out with Vikrant finally.
We saw both the US Sec Nav and French Def Min visit recently. The people accompanying the Sec Nav were far more pertinent though.

But that may just be bias on my end, I know the US Navy's top brass by face, not the Marine Nationale. Conversation in IN are more tilted towards jointness with USN though - for obvious reasons
 

johnj

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Any reason as to why countries build heavy destroyers, specially for a navy that operates within a certain region.
Initially I thought range was the significant factor but Chinese type 55 has lesser range than us despite being heavier.
To carry large no.of ready to fire missiles.
Heavy destroyer/cruiser carry large no.of vls - for specialized missions like - land attack[upto 128 lrcm missiles], anti ship[different type of Ashm from subsonic to hypersonic], and air defence[upto 144 missiles or more], 1 ship can do the job of 3 ships & cost only less than 2x the price.
USN focus on land attack, anti air & global anti air, , PLAN focus on anti ship & anti air & [land attack], USSR focus on anti ship & anti air & SK, Japan focus on anti air, global anti air.
 

binayak95

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Are IN policymakers buddy buddy with USN?
Personally feel like Cooperation with them will reduce us to second fiddle in our own backyard as long as their natural aircraft carrier in Diego Garcia stands.
Naaa
Its just natural - they have benefitted from decades of carrier building and operation, and have iterated scores of designs.

Why relearn the wheel when we can benefit from their experience. They were scathing in the hangar design of Vikrant - Italians dont know shit about handling fast jets and munitions in a tight space.

And WE are second fiddle to the USN, everyone is. To say otherwise is to pretend we are hot shit when we are not.
 

abingdonboy

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Naaa
Its just natural - they have benefitted from decades of carrier building and operation, and have iterated scores of designs.

Why relearn the wheel when we can benefit from their experience. They were scathing in the hangar design of Vikrant - Italians dont know shit about handling fast jets and munitions in a tight space.

And WE are second fiddle to the USN, everyone is. To say otherwise is to pretend we are hot shit when we are not.
Easy to blame the Italians, the IN were the ones that gave them the contract and signed off on their plans (along with the Russians). It didn’t need a rocket scientist to tell you that maybe you should build aircraft lifts that were slightly larger than one of the skinniest (when wings are folded) 2 engine fighters (29K) in the world. This was apparent from day 1.

even the PLAN with zero carrier experience figured out things better than the IN, for example why has the IN never designed/spec’d jet blast deflectors? These are present on all PLAN carriers. The lack of them severely limits the launch frequency of fighters (not o mention being a huge safety risk for the deck personnel).

+ IN would be utter fools to opt for the F18 just because of ‘interoperability’ concerns, Rafale-M is a NATO spec fighter hence as interoperable as the F18 with the USN, shouldn’t their priority be to be as interoperable with their sister service the IAF? We’ve already seen IN fighters deploy to a land border and the Rafale is now being integrated with Indian designed weapons- the F18 isn’t.
 

abingdonboy

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What? 16 ASWSWC, 7 P17As, three whole generations of destroyers (10) built on the same hull, same propulsion package and each an iteration of sensors and weapons doesnt scratch your itch to lambast at the military at the drop of a pin?

Heck, the only are where i criticise the IN is the VKD and MiG29K mess and submarines. But even in the latter, we have what - 3, perhaps 4 SSBNs already in the water?


And IN is unmatched when it comes to supporting pvt indurstry, with a very large number of R&D contracts handed out to pvt players since the last 3 years
I wasn’t really commenting on ships there, just the entire Indian procurement strategy

concerning ships though whilst 16 ASWSWC is nice, splitting 15B as 3+4 cost them a LONG time, 7 ships took the best part of 15 years (and counting). There should be seamless production instead of a 3-4 year wait between every predecessor/successor class as currently happens.Now the 15Bs are being handed over when can we expect the P18s? 15 years from now?
 

GigaChadBharatiya

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BTW looks like GRSE's order pipeline is full for the next 5 years. Maybe its time to expand their shipyard with better mechanisation and more space.
They have no space. And if they try to expand, you know what happens with coastal projects
 

GigaChadBharatiya

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It’s a funny one no doubt but I’m glad they came up with approach and it’s a win-win for all parties. I wonder if L&T’s quote factored in certain capital that has already been amortised by GRSE?

i hope L&T can start dominating the shipbuilding industry soon like they do in most other sectors they compete in. Would be good to see them building frigates and destroyers as the lead integrator not contract manufacturing
They have only one yard. So not much scope for expansion
 

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