Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

indiatester

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I have always wondered if our folks have checklists like pilots do for regular operations and for emergency situations.
I presume they do.
Since, these are surface based devices, the situations usually would be from the limited set of possibilities. How and why do we see failures and worse loss of life.
 

vampyrbladez

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NGF is likely going to be an evolution of the P17A design rather than a completely revolutionary design. Also, look at the pace at which MDL and GRSE are building them, INS Nilgiri is pretty much ready to head out for sea trials by mid 2022 followed by INS Himgiri.
Not only this another 4 improved Talwar class frigates are going to join the fleet by 2026-27.
So, IN will have added 11 new frigates to their fleet by 2026-27, not a small number by any means.
Those Shivaliks, Nilgiris are pretty much mini destroyers given their displacement.
The main radar and air surveillance radars and their weaponry are pretty much at the cutting edge of what is available on the market.
So it is better to wait for newer technologies to emerge rather than hurry just to bulk up on nos and spend time and money to upgrade them later.
Update on potential timeline for the Next Generation Destroyer.

As per MDL - 5 are to built P18A (?) with follow on up to 10 units P 18B(?) .

This is from the MDL earnings call from 29-6-21 :

Another big-ticket item in the long-term horizon, is about another 50,000 crores, which is the construction of five in number new generation destroyers, and as you are aware, the destroyers for the Indian Navy has only been built till now by Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Limited.

Regarding the other program that we talked new generation destroyer. The new generation
destroyer is at a conceptual stage, but it is a part of the maritime capability perspective plan, it
is again a mega program costing at about 50,000 crores. If you look from now, another about 3-
4.5 years, that is a time when they're going to take out the, I would say RFP and another about
1-1.5 years from thereon, is the likely contract conclusion.
https://mazagondock.in/images/pdf/investor-update-call-transcript-29062021.pdf

https://www.mazagondock.in/images/pdf/investor-update-call-transcript-26082021.pdf

The NGD appears to be at the conceptual design stage as of 2021. RFP will be released around 2025, contract will be given out by 2027 with construction to start by 2028-ish and delivery by 2032-33 of the first vessel.

https://idrw.org/indian-navy-to-finalize-next-generation-destroyer-class-configuration-by-2024-25/

Another project on the horizon is the Next Generation Corvette which are essentially miniature frigates having better armament as compared to the proposed Jinnah Class of the PN.

We have a very strong future outlook as for the maritime capability perspective plan for Indian Navy and the Coast Guard, which essentially comprises of, we have already submitted bids for about Rs.500 Crores for 8 in number fast patrol vessels, besides in the midterm range, we have a likelihood of bid submission for almost about Rs. 35,000 Crores which essentially comprises of 11 in number next generation offshore patrol vessels, where we are submitting the bids by end of this month, which is August 28, it is pegged at about Rs. 10,000 Crores and others are 7 next generation corvettes, some high-speed landing craft, and other vessels.
Broad Parameters/ Preferred Technologies. NGC would be capable of offensive SSM attack, ASW operations,
Local Naval Defence and VBSS operations. Vessel would be fitted with IPMS, SSM system, MR Gun system,
CIWS, Chaff, LIMO weapons and ASW weapons and sensors.
https://www.mod.gov.in/sites/default/files/tpcr.pdf

There are also the NGMV (6) to be built by CSL. You can read about my perspective on the upcoming class of warships here :

Possible NGMV design (with modifications) :




https://navyrecognition.com/index.p...-qatari-navy-air-defense-corvette-design.html

Weight ~3000-3500 tons

Specifications :

8 x BrahMos SSM
18 x Barak 8 / VL-SRSAM
1 x 76 mm SRGM
2 x 30 mm AK 630 CIWS
2 x 12.7 mm SRCG
4 x 7.62 GMPG

Radar / Sensors :

CSL won the 10,000 crore tender as L1 in early 2021.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...sels-for-indian-navy/articleshow/81170860.cms

CSL had signed an MoU with Fincantieri around late 2020 which included warship design.



https://www.fincantieri.com/en/medi...n-fincantieri-and-the-indian-shipyard-cochin/

Contract signing is expected in 2023 with keel laying around 2024-2025.

This is because the ASW-SWC contract shortlisted GRSE and CSL in 2017 as joint L1 and awarded contract in 2019.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...indian-navy/articleshow/69099130.cms?from=mdr
Thus the NGMV (6) will be Surface Warfare + Air Defence focused and the NGC (7) will be Surface Warfare + ASW oriented.

In combination with the Kamorta Class (4) of ASW Corvettes and the upcoming ASW-SWC (16) these vessels will form the middle order of the Indian Navy in the foreseeable future, supplementing at first and then outright replacing the Khukri , Kora and Abhay Class of Corvettes and Missile Boats.
 
Last edited:

Gessler

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Update on potential timeline for the Next Generation Destroyer.

As per MDL - 5 are to built P18A (?) with follow on up to 10 units P 18B(?) .
Wut?

There's no talk of follow-on.

For something to be called P18A first there has to be P18.

In the investors conference transcript its said that requirement is for 5 ships, but in a media interaction MDL chairman said requirement is for 6 ships. I'm tilting toward the latter as to which is the correct number.

This IDRW article is basically a re-hash of my tweets from few months ago, lol. I was the one who originally found that transcript:

 

vampyrbladez

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Wut?

There's no talk of follow-on.

For something to be called P18A first there has to be P18.

In the investors conference transcript its said that requirement is for 5 ships, but in a media interaction MDL chairman said requirement is for 6 ships. I'm tilting toward the latter as to which is the correct number.

This IDRW article is basically a re-hash of my tweets from few months ago, lol. I was the one who originally found that transcript:

10 is the number quoted in the Force Projection Document from 2018.

 

swapcv

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If there is going to be a P-17B and P-18A, don't count on them to be the same as their predecessors, for all one knows, the names are just a misnomer and they'll turn out vastly different to their forebears.
 

Gessler

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Yes this is the same document we've seen a dozen times before. At this point in time (2018) its pretty obvious that the numbers were far from being firmed up - as they're giving number anywhere between 5 and 10 for both NGD & NGF combined which is a huge bracket.

With 5 (or most likely 6) ships now firmly required for NGD, the NGF number is unlikely to be less than 6.

Because NGF is significantly behind NGD in timeline, the first ship is unlikely to enter service before late 2030s. As such the NGF class will more than likely be the intended replacement for the first 6 Talwar-class frigates (first one commissioned 2003, and will be ~35 yrs old by that time, ripe for retirement).

The last 4 talwars (aka Tushil-class & Triput-class) which are now being built will serve into 2040s & beyond. But the first 6 will have to be decommissioned at some point in 2030s. If we go for a one-to-one replacement of hulls, that gives us a requirement of 6 FFGs under NGF program - that's gonna be the bare minimum requirement. Depending on finances & threat perception of the time, the number could increase.

NGF is being confused with NGD, will probably be a miniature version like the P17A is to the P15B.
Both are totally different
We do not know either of these for a fact. I've written in detail about what the NGD-NGF combine could look like, quoting from my post on another forum:

Much will depend on what exactly the NGD & NGF will look like & what their mission will be.

When you look at P-17A & P-15B, the capability gap is virtually non-existent and the mission overlap is significant - above 90%. The 17A is essentially the same as 15B, all that the 15B gives you is 8 additional SSM, with about ~600 tons more displacement. The 17A in fact has a greater range at cruising speeds. The line between DDG and FFG in the Indian Navy has never been more blurred.

If anything, over a period of time, taking serviceability, seakeeping & mission tasking availability into account, the FFG might just be a far more capable asset than the DDG - thanks to the GE turbines as opposed to the Ukrainian ones.

But will the same equation continue into NGD & NGF? Will NGF be to NGD what 17A is to 15B?

Or will there be significant divergence of mission profiles (which in turn will result in divergence of design & capabilities)?

Will we move toward a more Westernized approach with the DDG performing mostly AAW & Land-attack while the FFG takes care of ASuW & ASW? This would make sense when you consider the fact that the Kamorta-class has no direct successor (i.e. dedicated ocean-going ASW corvette) planned. Both 17/17A & 15A/15B leaning towards a combination of ASuW & AAW resulted in the requirement of a dedicated ASW vessel that could keep up with them on the blue waters (P28).

But both the NGC & NGMV programs appear to be thoroughly multi-role corvettes geared toward independent taskings and/or littoral missions.

This COULD mean that the NGF indeed is an Indian analogue of the Type 26, taking on the duty of ASW screening for IN task forces/carrier groups. While the NGD could take on a role that combines a bit of Type 45 with a bit of Hobart/Arleigh Burke.

But there are no definitive answers yet and this is all speculation.
 

rohit b3

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Wut?

There's no talk of follow-on.

For something to be called P18A first there has to be P18.

In the investors conference transcript its said that requirement is for 5 ships, but in a media interaction MDL chairman said requirement is for 6 ships. I'm tilting toward the latter as to which is the correct number.

This IDRW article is basically a re-hash of my tweets from few months ago, lol. I was the one who originally found that transcript:

6.7 Bil$ for 5 Destroyers? 1.34 Bil$ per Destroyer?
Vishakapatnam costed 1.2 Bil$ per ship as of 2013 prices. Further it was "Cheap" because the design was based of Kolkata Class with not many changes.
Now they are saying,a completely new design, a bigger one of 10,000 tons+, as of 2025ish prices will be 1.34 Bil$ per ship?
Kaun hain yeh log? Kaha se aate hain? Matlab kuch bhi .
 

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