Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[Wisemarko]

If interested in submarine warfare, watch the Wolf’s Call. A French film - well done.

 

[bhramos]

INS Kochi visited Port Victoria, #Seychelles, and participated in the celebration of National Day, Seychelles, 29 June, 2019

 

[bhramos]

#BridgesofFriendship #MaritimeDiplomacy As a part of her Overseas Deployment to Mediterranean, Africa & Europe, #IndianNavy ship #INSTarkash arrived at Tangier, Morocco today for a three day visit.

 

[Tanmay]

The 2 Russian Navy ships to be converted to Talwar Class.4 years is a pretty long time since hull is already present. Only arnament/electronics changes would be needed.

 

[Vijyes]

The 2 Russian Navy ships to be converted to Talwar Class.4 years is a pretty long time since hull is already present. Only arnament/electronics changes would be needed.

Hull is simple WW2 Technology. The most important part is engine Integration and electronics. These consume a lot of time. Also, there is the make in India component which adds further to time

 

[bhramos]

Where warships begin at the Yantar shipyard in Russia’s Kaliningrad. Images from our visit to the site today where the @IndianNavy’s 2 Advanced Talwar class ships are being built

 

[no smoking]

The conversion of heat to electricity rate at 35% and the further conversion of electricity to propulsion is 85-90% which will mean a total efficiency of 30%. The direct propulsion from heat cycle goes to 50% as the heat us directly used to power the propeller and there is no wastage of conversion. This saves about 40% fuel used for propulsion compared to electric propulsion.

It is true theoretically. But in reality, no.

First of all, the best efficiency is around 40% at ISO conditions, LM2500+G4 (39%), MT30 (>40%)


The efficiency of 40% is only achieved when boat is travelling at maximum speed (>30 knots), with the speed goes down, the efficiency drops down dramatically. In some cases, the efficiency could be less than 10% when the boat speed is between 12 – 20 knots cruising speed. The study shows that about 55% of the life time, the boat is cruising, about 14% of time between 20-26 knots, only 10% of time is above 26 knots.


So, if we take US destroyer – Arleigh Burke as an example. This boat has 4xLM2500 gas turbines for propelling, every two are connected to one shaft/propeller. So, in 76% of time, this ship is sailing at low speed with 2 engines running inefficiently, let’s say 20%. By integrated full electronic propulsion system, all these 4 engines will be connected to one motor system which is linked to 2 propeller. So, instead of running 2 engines at 20% efficiency, now you only need to run one engine at full power – 30% efficiency.


Actually, it is estimated that the total saving on fuel cost alone will be up to 15% by IEFP system.

Even in direct propulsion, the integrated electricity generation can be used to generate electricity from the main engine without auxillary engine. So, we will still get large amount of electricity.

Yes, the main engine can generate electricity power for the boat. However, the modern warships all have the separate engines to generate electricity. Arleigh Burke, for example, has 3x 501-K34 gas turbines to generate electricity. With IFEP system, however, you won’t need these 3 separate engines.

40% fuel wastage is a big issue to be ignored. It is true that the structure of the boat can be simplified and stability of the boat can rise due to ability to place the main engine anywhere. But the weapon stores and other space increase will be more than undone by the fuel inefficiency.

Again, you need to look into the detail:

In the life cost of a warship, Procurement - 39% , Personnel – 35%, O&S – 20%, fuel cost – 6%. So, even if there is no improvement, the other advantages brought by IFEP systems out-match the fuel cost.

 

[Vijyes]

It is true theoretically. But in reality, no.

First of all, the best efficiency is around 40% at ISO conditions, LM2500+G4 (39%), MT30 (>40%)

Why are you looking at USA ships? Indian ships use CODAG configuration most of the time where diesel engine is the main engine, not gas turbofan. Diesel engines of ships have efficiency of 50% whereas turbofan has 40%. LM2500 is a turbofan. India uses turbofan in most naval ships as secondary engine meant to be used when in high speed chasing or war. In most circumstances, india uses diesel engine which gives 50% efficiency.

Yes, the main engine can generate electricity power for the boat. However, the modern warships all have the separate engines to generate electricity. Arleigh Burke, for example, has 3x 501-K34 gas turbines to generate electricity. With IFEP system, however, you won’t need these 3 separate engines

These are turbofan engine and hence generation of electricity is difficult compared to diesel. But in heavy diesel ICE engine, generation of electricity can go hand in hand.

Again, you need to look into the detail:

In the life cost of a warship, Procurement - 39% , Personnel – 35%, O&S – 20%, fuel cost – 6%. So, even if there is no improvement, the other advantages brought by IFEP systems out-match the fuel cost

The cost of labour is not very meaningful as it is not a real goods. We are talking of logistical costs which is very critical in warfare. More resupplying frequency means more chances of sabotage. It is alwalw best that the resupply frequency for fuel is minimised especially during war time.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Where warships begin at the Yantar shipyard in Russia’s Kaliningrad. Images from our visit to the site today where the @IndianNavy’s 2 Advanced Talwar class ships are being built

Shiv Aroor is such a foreign lobby guy.

 

[Tanmay]

Shiv Aroor is such a foreign lobby guy.

I guess many defence journalists are on that Russian trip. Shiv, S Phillip, Sandeep Unnithan and Manu Pubby. You can see the same stuff on their current timeline. So probably a Russian sponsored trip.

 

[vampyrbladez]

I guess many defence journalists are on that Russian trip. Shiv, S Phillip, Sandeep Unnithan and Manu Pubby. You can see the same stuff on their current timeline. So probably a Russian sponsored trip.

Their wives must be concerned!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Tanmay]

Their wives must be concerned!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Perhaps already honey trapped by the Natashas.

 

[Enquirer]

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2019/07/last-chance-to-get-technology.html

"......the contract, worth an estimated Rs 50,000 crore, will be India’s last overseas submarine procurement and hence the last chance to obtain the technology for building the next 12 submarines, which the government insists must be fully indigenous...."

My personal feeling is that they should go with Japanese Soryu. All future submarines will be pure battery driven (no need for AIP)...what with energy densities & safety of Li-ion batteries increasing rapidly, as with the fall in their prices.
Hopefully Japanese have learnt their lesson (in dealing with the Aussies) that custom work if any should be done as per the customer's needs.

 

[Vijyes]

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2019/07/last-chance-to-get-technology.html

"......the contract, worth an estimated Rs 50,000 crore, will be India’s last overseas submarine procurement and hence the last chance to obtain the technology for building the next 12 submarines, which the government insists must be fully indigenous...."

My personal feeling is that they should go with Japanese Soryu. All future submarines will be pure battery driven (no need for AIP)...what with energy densities & safety of Li-ion batteries increasing rapidly, as with the fall in their prices.
Hopefully Japanese have learnt their lesson (in dealing with the Aussies) that custom work if any should be done as per the customer's needs.

Lithium batteries are highly unsafe. They are only fit when condition can be controlled. None will use lithium batteries in such critical system like Submarines or aircrafts. Lithium batteries catch fire on slightest of problems.

 

[Tanmay]

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2019/07/last-chance-to-get-technology.html

"......the contract, worth an estimated Rs 50,000 crore, will be India’s last overseas submarine procurement and hence the last chance to obtain the technology for building the next 12 submarines, which the government insists must be fully indigenous...."

My personal feeling is that they should go with Japanese Soryu. All future submarines will be pure battery driven (no need for AIP)...what with energy densities & safety of Li-ion batteries increasing rapidly, as with the fall in their prices.
Hopefully Japanese have learnt their lesson (in dealing with the Aussies) that custom work if any should be done as per the customer's needs.

A repeat order for Scorpenes is better.
After two decades of negotiations and working together with French over Scorpene we would have surely ironed out the issues wrt ToT, Industry partnerships, finances. training, manufacturing.

The Infra setup for Scorpene will be wasted. Plus we will again head for non standardisation - U204, Kilos, Scorpene, Soryu, Akula, Arihant etc. Different weapons, torpedoes, sensor suites (ii know the SSBN, SSN are different story, still )

The Japanese US2 plane saga was started during my school days. Now I am employed but still no end to that saga.

 

[Enquirer]

Lithium batteries are highly unsafe. They are only fit when condition can be controlled. None will use lithium batteries in such critical system like Submarines or aircrafts. Lithium batteries catch fire on slightest of problems.

Dude! Do read my post carefully (and also keep abreast with the technology). I clearly said...
" ....with energy densities & safety of Li-ion batteries increasing rapidly.."

For the untrained eye all Lithium batteries are the same, but there are a range of variations within Lithium-ion batteries that trade energy density, charge times, safety etc.....each company choosing the optimal blend based on the application.

The above is actually true of the current generation of Lithium batteries. However the next-gen Lithium-ion batteries (already scaling up in production) will be solid-state batteries....that will eliminate the liquid electrolyte (replacing it with....you guessed right....solid electrolyte), this automatically eliminates the threat of 'dendrite' build up that notoriously causes fires! Further, it's the risk of dendrite buildup that actually keeps the charging rate also low....but with solid-state Lithium batteries the charge times can also go up 5x!!!

 

[Hari Sud]

Where warships begin at the Yantar shipyard in Russia’s Kaliningrad. Images from our visit to the site today where the @IndianNavy’s 2 Advanced Talwar class ships are being built

Was this trip to Russia, paid by Russian?

What were they convincing you to buy?

 

[Enquirer]

A repeat order for Scorpenes is better.
After two decades of negotiations and working together with French over Scorpene we would have surely ironed out the issues wrt ToT, Industry partnerships, finances. training, manufacturing.

The Infra setup for Scorpene will be wasted. Plus we will again head for non standardisation - U204, Kilos, Scorpene, Soryu, Akula, Arihant etc. Different weapons, torpedoes, sensor suites (ii know the SSBN, SSN are different story, still )

The Japanese US2 plane saga was started during my school days. Now I am employed but still no end to that saga.

The next 6 subs have to be next-gen anyway. If the intent is to use those as the stepping stone for India's own indigenous conventional subs (probably 10-15 years away) then it's better that India adopts the latest and the greatest.

I agree that the weapons suite should be standardized.....that's why I stated that Japanese should be compliant with India's customization needs (something they weren't flexible with in the Aussie case)

 

[Prashant12]

HSL expects naval ships building plan will steer it back into black



Visakhapatnam: Hindustan Shipyard Ltd, a ministry of defence enterprise, is gearing up to build naval support vessels by the second quarter of 2020-21 in technical collaboration with a Turkish shipbuilding consortium led by Anadolu Shipyard and hopes the order will steer it back into the black.
HSL, the oldest shipyard in the country having been set up in 1941, hopes to ink the collaboration agreement with the Turkish shipyard group by September, HSL chairman and managing director Rear Admiral (Retd) LV Sarat Babu said.


Admiral Babu said the Turkish shipyard was chosen as partner because it had the expertise to build fleet-support naval vessels. The two companies had exchanged documents on the collaboration in May.

“We expect to finalise the details of the partnership with the TAIS group of Turkey, in which Anadolu Shipyard is a key partner, by September this year. Anadolu will be providing HSL the expertise to build fleet support vessels, which will be used to supply Indian Navy ships with critical material, including provisions,” Admiral Babu told TOI.

HSL expects to begin work on the fleet supply vessels in the second quarter of 2020. “The meter for the delivery of the first vessel will start running from the time we get the order. We will be required to deliver the first of the five vessels within four years, and each of the other four within 10 months of each delivery,” he said.


The Turkish group was selected after a global tender was floated and three potential partners were shortlisted from eight bidders. The Turkish group was finalised from the shortlisted firms. “Anadolu will be transferring the technology to HSL. The defence ministry approved the partnership,” Admiral Babu said. According to him, HSL was given the order to build the five-fleet support naval vessels on an Acceptance of Necessity (AoN) basis. “The cost of the five vessels has been set at Rs 9,800 crore,” he said.

Admiral Sarat Babu said HSL had exited the cargo vessel segment because of low margins. “Cargo vessels do not generate high margins. Moreover, shipbuilders in other countries like Sri Lanka and the Philippines, where the labour costs are lower, have become more attractive for customers,” he said.

HSL has been focussing on the retrofitting of submarines, construction of specialty vessels for the oil and gas industry and now naval support vessels. “We are waiting for the Indian Navy to float a Request for Proposal (RfP) for the Medium Refit Life Certification (MRLC) of one of its submarines. The MRLC will increase the life of the submarine by up to eight years,” he said.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...r-it-back-into-black/articleshow/70164708.cms



HSL currently has 1,500 fulltime workers and about 1,000 contract workers.

 

[WolfPack86]

Here’s where 70% of all conventional submarines the @IndianNavy has ever operated were born — the Admiralty Shipyards in St Petersburg. Celebrating 315 years of existence, it has built 8 Foxtrot-class and 8 of the 10 Kilo-class boats in Indian service.