Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[garg_bharat]

In the US, they always build basements (in Russia also) where you can hide in case of aerial bombing. Their construction quality is also quite good.

In India, even Govt. buildings have no place to hide, even from conventional bombs. And completely forget any protection from Nukes.

 

[garg_bharat]

"Power projection": This is just a word used for buying useless unneeded military goods.

Reality is India has difficulty bringing immediate neighbours to its political goals, despite maintaining 1.3M military and 1M paramilitary.

 

[Superdefender]

I think IN is putting too much faith in aircraft carrier, which can backfire in a real crisis.

It is similar to Indian Kings putting too much resources in raising war elephants, and ignoring horses.

In Vedic literature, a horse is always considered vehicle of war. Elephants were used to carry materiel.

Carrier is like an elephant. You put too much resources into it, you end up ignoring the smaller combatants which actually fight the war.

A 65000T Carrier with EMALS and everything at 5B dollars? Somebody is day dreaming. Vikrant will cost India between 3-4B dollars, which is just 40000T and is extremely simple compared to what IN wants now.

Why are you so obsessed with cost always? Vikrant is the first AC built in India. Anything, you build for first time, is bound to see price increase. It is same for all nations. Not to forget the delay in Vikrant, that added more. Est. cost of Vishal will be $5-$6billion if the project finishes in time.

 

[garg_bharat]

Why are you so obsessed with cost always? Vikrant is the first AC built in India. Anything, you build for first time, is bound to see price increase. It is same for all nations. Not to forget the delay in Vikrant, that added more. Est. cost of Vishal will be $5-$6billion if the project finishes in time.

Yeah sure, if you say so.
The problem with INS Vishal are manifold. Let me itemize. If you are smart enough, try answering each one.

1. India does not have nuclear power plant for a ship this size. There is no plant under development as well.
Let us see how much an imported plant costs, and when can it be delivered, and what are its quality parameters in terms of reliability and efficiency?

2. Practically all mechanicals of this ship will have to be imported, as India has no expertise for a ship of this size. None in either public sector or private sector.

3. Running abroad for design consultancy is acknowledging we are getting into uncharted territory. Navy is accepting it does not know how to design this ship, let alone estimating the cost.

4. The discussion with Americans on equipment is quite preliminary and there is no clarity on any prices or timelines from the American side. It is only like an intent that we can provide you this. It is also unclear if Americans will stick to the intent if we decide to import mechanicals from Russia.

5. The airgroup has to be planned well in advance, as it may have lead times greater than the ship itself. There is no movement there.

 

[Superdefender]

@garg_bharat, atleast I can tell what will be the airgroup. No Rafale-M and SH. US Ford AC cost $14 billion. What do you think the est. price of Vishal will be?

 

[tharun]

Good news, Fabrication of third Arihant ship (S4) is completed.

Fabrication means is it ready for lauch?

 

[Superdefender]

Fabrication means is it ready for lauch?

Nope, only hull fabrication completed.

 

[cobra commando]

Navy’s P-8I aircraft on surveillance mission in Seychelles

 

[Indx TechStyle]

You are brainwashed that India can fight a naval war in isolation, and nothing else will happen.

When I said that? Care to read my post again.
I was just giving info for our foreign bases.
Now, India don't want to involve in a mess between US and China.
Supporting US will end up us like Japan and Britain,
Winning of China will make their bid stronger for IOR,
So, simply if India involves in SCS dispute, it will involve only around last part of war or indirectly.

You will know that India won't directly involve in any conflict for next one or two decades if you read international newspapers about global strategic conditions.

 

[garg_bharat]

@garg_bharat, atleast I can tell what will be the airgroup. No Rafale-M and SH. US Ford AC cost $14 billion. What do you think the est. price of Vishal will be?

The ship that IN wants can only be made in a Western foreign yard, that has experience with building nuclear powered Carrier. Which limits it to three countries - USA, UK and France.

If that is the case, expect a cost in the range of 10B.

A simplistic logic is that we acquire reactor and mechanicals from Russia, do hull fabrication in India, and get EMALS and weapons from West. With the current bad blood between Russia and West, this approach can fail easily.

 

[garg_bharat]

Winning of China will make their bid stronger for IOR,
So, simply if India involves in SCS dispute, it will involve only around last part of war or indirectly.

You will know that India won't directly involve in any conflict for next one or two decades if you read international newspapers about global strategic conditions.

India should not get involved, even in the end. The primary threat to India is from the West. This threat has increased manifold with rise of militant Islam.

India should get out of this business of dominating Asia. Nobody has ever won in a bloodthirsty race.

 

[Gessler]

The ship that IN wants can only be made in a Western foreign yard, that has experience with building nuclear powered Carrier. Which limits it to three countries - USA, UK and France.

If that is the case, expect a cost in the range of 10B.

A simplistic logic is that we acquire reactor and mechanicals from Russia, do hull fabrication in India, and get EMALS and weapons from West. With the current bad blood between Russia and West, this approach can fail easily.

UK has no experience with nuclear-powered carriers, they never built any. Highly doubt any French shipyard has the physical capacity to accommodate a 65,000-ton carrier. This doubt was expressed not by me but by ex-servicemen from France on IDF.

In anyone's wildest dreams, the US is not going to build & transfer a new nuclear carrier to India.

Here's what's gonna happen : the Directorate of Naval Design (DND) / Naval Design Bureau (NDB), the same entities which designed the 40,000-ton IAC-1, will also design the 65,000-ton IAC-2. The only foreign assistance being sought is for a peer for the design-review process. This means a number of foreign agencies will submit their bids for lending design-reviewing assistance to DND/NDB. Whichever agency is selected (based on expertise they're willing to offer, and how much they charge for it) is NOT going to design a carrier for India - their contribution will be in very specific fields where they excel; for example, such a company might have unique expertise to offer for building air-conditioning in the carrier's crew quarters, they might have some solutions to offer with regard to comms room layout, lighting facilities, life-support equipment, and other internal engineering-related aspects. Too early to say exactly what's going to be done with foreign assistance inside the carrier.

Even multiple foreign agencies can be employed to lend their expertise in critical areas of their excellence, as we see fit. There's nothing strange or wrong about that. Even US shipyards hire help from leading European naval engineering companies for many of their leading vessels including Gerald R. Ford-class ACC and Zumwalt-class destroyer. We're likely to hire mostly European/Russian agencies as consultants/sub-contractors.

...and NO, the IAC-2 is NOT based on any foreign design. Such news are deliberately planted by agencies for purposes of page-ranking. India is not the only country with press-titutes. Only extremely gullible persons will believe it when someone says Russia is going to design a carrier for India. Russia, on the overall, has infact lesser carrier-construction expertise than India at the moment. That's a fact. The Soviet shipyards that constructed carriers are now in Ukraine, and have lost all their culminated work-experience over the decades. Russian yards lost their marbles even trying to refurbish an existing ship like Gorshkov.

The reactor is not coming from Russia or anywhere else...whoever even thinks it's possible to just import military PWRs from abroad just like that, LoL! ..... the reactor, just like the previous Arihant reactor, will be developed within India. Russian help, however, will be there...but under the strictest levels of secrecy and will be of an extremely low-profile nature. Even for Arihant, everyone with a good understanding of defence matters knows very well that the PWR or even the hull fabrication wouldn't have been possible without Russian help, but is that publicly announced or written by Govt. sources or press-releases? No, absolutely not. Such will be the discreet nature of the help.

As of EMALS, the US already knows very well that Russia is involved in a big way for Indian naval PWR efforts. Yet, they are opening up for an export of their latest aircraft-launch system to India. They have their reasons...if they were gonna have a problem with Russian input, either they will keep quiet about exporting any EMALS to India, or offer to replace Russia in the fields where they are currently lending a hand. Neither will they halt the offer for EMALS, nor will they offer assistance with PWRs.

Even the IAC-1 has several internal bulkheads & stuff from Russia, will be flying Russian MiG-29K fighters, and is yet powered by US General Electric LM2500+ gas turbines. If they didn't have a problem there, why should they have a problem now? Heck, why would they even be entertaining the idea of supplying EMALS to India in that case? Please learn to connect the dots, people!

Anyway, the EMALS would only be launching French/American/Indian aircraft. Russia has no alternatives to offer for any planned air power contingent on IAC-2, so stop hyperventilating, okay? Fighters will be CATOBAR-compatible and requirement for fixed-wing AEW aircraft is being identified. No Russian planes fit those criteria. Simply put, as far as EMALS is concerned, there are ZERO incompatibility issues with the aircraft. Heck, even all naval helicopters that are expected to be used on IAC-2 are either of American or European origin.

 

[Superdefender]

@Gessler, agreed with your whole post except one thing. All fixed wing fighters on Vishal will be Indian origin. Rotary wing choppers may be foreign. If you want source, go to IAC-II Vishal thread of this forum. I posted an article there on Saturday. Read it please.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

India should not get involved, even in the end. The primary threat to India is from the West. This threat has increased manifold with rise of militant Islam.

If India won't involve in end, it will harm us in long term as we will have to alone challenge China.
This is just great power game.
West+ China vs Soviet vs India
Now, West+ India vs Russia and China
Future, India+ ABCD countries vs China +EFGH
Etc. Etc.


India will not challenge west before 2030, when our military power will match west, Russia and China.

India should get out of this business of dominating Asia.

This race is for ruling world but unfortunately it's war scenario is getting created just 5-6000 km away.
And India isn't a saint who'll sit study.

Nobody has ever won in a bloodthirsty race.

And not involving makes you collapse forever.
Dude, this is the destiny of a large nation.
You need resources, so you need power to get them.


And if you think India must declare itself as a pacifist nation, you must not be a defense forum, but on a peace forum.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

The ship that IN wants can only be made in a Western foreign yard, that has experience with building nuclear powered Carrier. Which limits it to three countries - USA, UK and France.

If that is the case, expect a cost in the range of 10B.

A simplistic logic is that we acquire reactor and mechanicals from Russia, do hull fabrication in India, and get EMALS and weapons from West. With the current bad blood between Russia and West, this approach can fail easily.

This approach is succeeding you know. :grin:
India is getting EMALS from USA for INS Vishal, IN is considering another super carrier (confirmed nuclear powered) to be based on Russian Project 23000E.
Russia has itself shown interest.:biggrin2:
If things go well, India will have 5-6 CBGs by 2035.

We mange relations with Israel, Iran and Arabian Countries at same time (more bloody enemies).
What made you think that we can't handle west and Russia.
We are even handling China. Watch their daily papers.
According to them:
"India is not getting trapped in US game and collaborating with China.
India and China are historically connected" etc. etc..

 

[Gessler]

@Gessler, agreed with your whole post except one thing. All fixed wing fighters on Vishal will be Indian origin. Rotary wing choppers may be foreign. If you want source, go to IAC-II Vishal thread of this forum. I posted an article there on Saturday. Read it please.

I have seen the article, however I will stand by my original statement no matter what anyone says.

The IAC-2 will have a combination of Rafale-M and N-AMCA. The Rafale will come first...infact by the time Vishal enters sea trials, IN might already have a sizable number of Rafale-Ms possibly delivered directly from France. More will come from the Indian production line.

AMCA will come much later, like 5 to 8 years after first Vishal-class carrier is inducted. Whoever thinks an all-Indian fighter fleet for Vishal is a possibility is being falsely optimistic.

 

[Gessler]

This approach is succeeding you know. :grin:
India is getting EMALS from USA for INS Vishal, IN is considering another super carrier (confirmed nuclear powered) to be based on Russian Project 23000E.
Russia has itself shown interest.:biggrin2:
If things go well, India will have 5-6 CBGs by 2035.

We mange relations with Israel, Iran and Arabian Countries at same time (more bloody enemies).
What made you think that we can't handle west and Russia.
We are even handling China. Watch their daily papers.
According to them:
"India is not getting trapped in US game and collaborating with China.
India and China are historically connected" etc. etc..

It is true that Indian Navy is aiming to have a fleet of 5-6 carriers by the 2030-2040 time period. But trust me when I say that the Project-23000E news is bullsh!t.

All carriers we will build from now on will be of the same class, Vishal. We could build upto 4 carriers of this type and these alone will serve till 2060 or beyond. The IAC-1 was a stepping stone for acquiring experience and work skills, the IAC-2 will be a matured design. The same design, with continuing upgrades, will be be used as the staple carrier-class for upto 40+ years since the time of it's induction.

Much like how the Nimitz-class was introduced in mid-1970s and that class-design remained in use for 40-50 years and only now is the Gerald R. Ford-class being developed and prepared for introduction as a replacement.

Once a matured carrier design has been developed, no one keeps changing the design and making something different each successive decade. That's a bad plan and would be a total waste of money & resources. We will stick to the Vishal-class as the basic platforms, but each successive ship in the class will bring electronic/systems upgrades.

 

[rohit b3]

I have seen the article, however I will stand by my original statement no matter what anyone says.

The IAC-2 will have a combination of Rafale-M and N-AMCA. The Rafale will come first...infact by the time Vishal enters sea trials, IN might already have a sizable number of Rafale-Ms possibly delivered directly from France. More will come from the Indian production line.

AMCA will come much later, like 5 to 8 years after first Vishal-class carrier is inducted. Whoever thinks an all-Indian fighter fleet for Vishal is a possibility is being falsely optimistic.

INS Vishal will more likely have the Tejas mk2, if IN sticks to its commitment of atleast 50 of them, or more.

 

[Gessler]

INS Vishal will more likely have the Tejas mk2, if IN sticks to its commitment of atleast 50 of them, or more.

The Air Force version Tejas Mk-2 should (if everything goes to plan) be ready for induction by around the same time as the Vishal would probably be finished with it's design validation process and keel would be laid.

The only reason for IN to have NLCA Mk-2 on Vishal is if it wants to really increase the number of aircraft that can be stuffed in at once...other than that, with the Rafale-M in the offing, the Mk-2 won't have much of a job to do on Vishal.

It's likely to be limited to forming part of the air-wing of IAC-1 Vikrant, and some for shore-based duties.

 

[rohit b3]

The Air Force version Tejas Mk-2 should (if everything goes to plan) be ready for induction by around the same time as the Vishal would probably be finished with it's design validation process and keel would be laid.

The only reason for IN to have NLCA Mk-2 on Vishal is if it wants to really increase the number of aircraft that can be stuffed in at once...other than that, with the Rafale-M in the offing, the Mk-2 won't have much of a job to do on Vishal.

It's likely to be limited to forming part of the air-wing of IAC-1 Vikrant, and some for shore-based duties.

Umm, AF Tejas mk2 would be ready for induction around 2025, and the Naval LCA mk2 very soon after that. Vishal's kneel laying can be expected around 2020, with completion around 2030.
Now if IN sticks to the plan for 6 LCA mk1 along with 50 LCA mk2.....IN will have a total of 101 Combat Jets,including the 45 Mig29Ks by the time Vishal is commissioned.

Its very much possible that 25 of them are placed on each Vikrant and Vikramaditya, while 35 of them are placed on Vishal along with 2-4 AWECs and Refuellers, leaving around 16 to operate from Shore based facilities.
Once Naval AMCA gets inducted, hoping around 2035, it will increase the Naval Air arm size.
Lets hope IN sticks to its commitment for Indian origin products than pay 300mil$ each for Rafales.
Tejas mk2 can be a great success after seeing the Tejas mk1.