Indian MBRLS Pinaka Thread

SwordOfDarkness

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Don't disagree .. But what I mean is right now .. Its a complicated matter for a CV to say for sure that a red car a red car .. If it is on sandy soil, grassy soil snow in different lighting etc etc .. In this military application there are many enemy equipment whose images we will not get in all said scenarios .. we will 100% have to build mock ups so that the CV system can be trained against it. And the the enemy can screw with you .. Does the CV differentiate between a target and an image of a target.
If they paint their vehicles in funny colours ?

have a meme
View attachment 174258
Nah there's good work on it. And its not that secret, atleast as far as I know because they are allowing interns to work on it.

And good intel can not only be gotten by our own observation drones, or simulations, but also shared intel from others with similar enemies. Also, IR signatures are quite similar for tanks, cars etc. So it shouldnt be a big issue even if mostly trained on our own equipment.
 

karn

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Nah there's good work on it. And its not that secret, atleast as far as I know because they are allowing interns to work on it.

And good intel can not only be gotten by our own observation drones, or simulations, but also shared intel from others with similar enemies. Also, IR signatures are quite similar for tanks, cars etc. So it shouldnt be a big issue even if mostly trained on our own equipment.
True but then an IR system defeats the cost argument.
Oh those poor interns .. classifying images day in and day out. Modern slavery I tell you:laugh:
 

SwordOfDarkness

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True but then an IR system defeats the cost argument.
Oh those poor interns .. classifying images day in and day out. Modern slavery I tell you:laugh:
IR isnt that expensive :/ atleast as far as I know.

Though the interns arent classifying images, they are writing parts of the code.... for classifying images they will probably get lab technicians or something.
 

Dark Sorrow

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Any particular reason as to why Guided Pinaka's CEP is 60-80m compared to HIMARS's 5m CEP?
Both seem to employ GPS guidance.
I suspect this is because of better hardware and control algorithm/design on HIMARS.
One must remember US is working GPS guided MRLS missiles since 1990s. US is working GPS guided munitions like JDAM and strategic missile for even longer.
These have been extensively used in Afghanistan and Iraq.
They have not built such systems overnight.
If we continue with with further development of Pinaka we will get into sub-meter accuracy.
The guidance mechanism was developed in cooperation with IMI, which likely means its similar to the EXTRA rocket artillery system which has a CEP of 10m.
The guidance mechanism was developed in-house by DRDO labs.
With IMI we have worked on Trajectory Control System and long range observation system post-engagement battle damage assessment.
 

Dark Sorrow

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Pinaka rocket can carry 100 kg to 250 kg warhead . At 60-80 meter CEP it can do a lot damage to entire area with few missile with high explosive fragments/cluster munition it Carries . A loitering munition can carry 5/10 kg of warhead may be . May be both have their separate uses .
Against unprotected lightly armored targets or humans it can be somewhat effective depending on situation and environment.
However if the intended target is protected by Blast wall as in case of military target we will need direct hit. 60-80 meter CEP will not be effective against such targets. We would need 1-2 meter accuracy.
 

Okabe Rintarou

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True. HIMARS have a accuracy of 1-2 m.
Who said HIMARS has "accuracy of 1-2 meters"? Its got "less than 15 meters CEP" based on this official document:-

HIMARS CEP.png

Sauce: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2017-12-08/html/2017-26454.htm

More importantly, 1-2 meters CEP is stupidly accurate. You can't pull it off with just INS/GPS, even if you are America. How do I know? Because the Americans have to use Differential GPS to achieve 5 to 8 meters CEP on their Small Diameter Bomb (SDB) despite their SDB having lesser impact velocity and much higher control authority than a GMLRS. They have to rely on a seekers to get sub meter accuracy on SDB I and II. Neither differential GPS nor seeker are available to you when you are trying to hit targets 80 km into the enemy rear area with a cheap MLRS. You can only rely on GPS/INS. Which means 1-2 meters CEP for HIMARS is impossible.

If the CEP is 60-80m even for guided Pinaka then I presume this is nowhere near high-precision HIMARS ? It is just some trajectory correction so that the rockets do not fall way off the target.
60-80 meters is written on that poster, but CEP is not. So by 60-80 meters, they could just as easily mean R99, not CEP. Meaning 99% of all rounds fall within 60-80 meters. Plus, the range is stated to be 80 km when we know the latest test got to 90 km mark. Which means the poster is likely outdated (although not to say that he accuracy would have definitely improved, but its a possibility).

Plus, if we look at that image posted by @karn of the guided pinaka landing within 10 meters, CEP might actually be much smaller than 60-80 meters. Someone needs to ask at the Defexpo what exactly the CEP is.

What we are seeing in Ladakh is that China is very meticulous in entrenching each and every piece of equipment, which means if the munition is not hitting the target at the dead center (~within 2-3m) then the target is hardly even damaged.
With bomblets or PF warhead that airbursts and gives a tungsten pellet shower effective upto 60 meter radius, we can take care of these issues. The idea with MLRS is carpet bombing. The blast radii need to overlap and with bomblets, it won't matter. You are a gone case unless you are infantry in a slit trench. Weapon emplacements, especially those of artillery are not just 2-3 meters, they are a bit wider. And with bomblets, they are bound to pepper the inside of each emplacement. (Assuming no slopes, because they do increase miss distances drastically). And then there is the PF warhead with tungsten pellet shower that would look something like this;-

Even if Pinaka Guided has a 60 meter CEP, with three/four rockets carrying these PF warheads, we can easily sanitize the target with 99.7% certainty (even if they are emplaced).


Instead, we can focus on swarm drones and loitering munitions which are extremely precise and cheaper than one single Pinaka round.
MRPKS is meant to do that, but small drones are much slower and vulnerable to interception with new gen SHORADs. Not to mention their smaller warhead capacity. Plus, wartime production supply chains at least for munitions needs to go independent of foreigners to ensure rapid ramp up and no supply chain disruption possibility. Can we do that with drone avionics?

Point is these two weapons are complimentary. Look at the Europeans, they are complementing their MLRS with tube-launched drone swarms, similar thinking prevails in IA where they are going for both MLRS and MRPKS.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________


Folks, stop overplaying the difference in accuracy between HIMARS and Pinaka. Yes HIMARS is likely more accurate, but HIMARS CEP is around 10-15 meters, not 1-2 meters. And Pinaka's CEP is not known with complete certainty.
And with Pinaka carrying submunitions or a PF warhead that can airburst and pepper everything in a 60 meter radius with hypervelocity tungsten pellets, its accurate enough unless you are trying to take down structures, tanks or APC. For tanks or APC, we can employ area denial munitions of Pinaka. And for bunkers, thermobaric warhead can work but since accuracy isn't good enough for direct hit, multiple rockets would be needed. But then the bunker can't displace, so its not as if we won't have the chance to take subsequent shots. Based on the exact CEP, a set number of guided rockets (around 4-5) would guarantee a precision strike against such point targets that require a direct hit from the rocket.
 

Dark Sorrow

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Who said HIMARS has "accuracy of 1-2 meters"? Its got "less than 15 meters CEP" based on this official document:-

View attachment 174338
Sauce: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2017-12-08/html/2017-26454.htm

More importantly, 1-2 meters CEP is stupidly accurate. You can't pull it off with just INS/GPS, even if you are America. How do I know? Because the Americans have to use Differential GPS to achieve 5 to 8 meters CEP on their Small Diameter Bomb (SDB) despite their SDB having lesser impact velocity and much higher control authority than a GMLRS. They have to rely on a seekers to get sub meter accuracy on SDB I and II. Neither differential GPS nor seeker are available to you when you are trying to hit targets 80 km into the enemy rear area with a cheap MLRS. You can only rely on GPS/INS. Which means 1-2 meters CEP for HIMARS is impossible.
According to the U.S. Marines, HIMARS can fire at a 186-miles (300-kilometer) target with 1-meter accuracy and is referred to as a "strategic fires" asset for Marine artillery.

When firing GMLRS-Unitary precision rockets, HIMARS can achieve ranges of 70+ kilometers, attacking the target with low collateral damage, enabling danger-close fires (within 200 meters) in support of friendly troops in contact, and engaging high-value point targets in open, urban, and complex environments. HIMARS and MLRS launchers are getting a common fire control system.



The guided rockets are accurate to within two to three meters, two defense officials told CNN, allowing the Ukrainians to use far fewer rounds to hit targets precisely at distance.


The American weapon can launch six rockets from the "MFOM" family of projectiles with enough precision to hit a car from up to 70 kilometers away

 

Okabe Rintarou

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According to the U.S. Marines, HIMARS can fire at a 186-miles (300-kilometer) target with 1-meter accuracy and is referred to as a "strategic fires" asset for Marine artillery.

When firing GMLRS-Unitary precision rockets, HIMARS can achieve ranges of 70+ kilometers, attacking the target with low collateral damage, enabling danger-close fires (within 200 meters) in support of friendly troops in contact, and engaging high-value point targets in open, urban, and complex environments. HIMARS and MLRS launchers are getting a common fire control system.



The guided rockets are accurate to within two to three meters, two defense officials told CNN, allowing the Ukrainians to use far fewer rounds to hit targets precisely at distance.


The American weapon can launch six rockets from the "MFOM" family of projectiles with enough precision to hit a car from up to 70 kilometers away

Please don't give me news media on propaganda overdrive due to Ukraine war as your sources when I am giving you official sources. And here I am talking about HIMARS comparison to Pinaka and you are giving me ATACMS figures of 300 km.
 

Hari Sud

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According to the U.S. Marines, HIMARS can fire at a 186-miles (300-kilometer) target with 1-meter accuracy and is referred to as a "strategic fires" asset for Marine artillery.

When firing GMLRS-Unitary precision rockets, HIMARS can achieve ranges of 70+ kilometers, attacking the target with low collateral damage, enabling danger-close fires (within 200 meters) in support of friendly troops in contact, and engaging high-value point targets in open, urban, and complex environments. HIMARS and MLRS launchers are getting a common fire control system.



The guided rockets are accurate to within two to three meters, two defense officials told CNN, allowing the Ukrainians to use far fewer rounds to hit targets precisely at distance.


The American weapon can launch six rockets from the "MFOM" family of projectiles with enough precision to hit a car from up to 70 kilometers away

Overstated specification of HIMARS. All the overstatements are from future marketing angle. The more they talk about it’s accuracy, there is greater possibilities of sales elsewhere.
 

Tiwariji

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ATACMS like system can be compared to upcoming pralaya missile . Not pinaka . Pralaya ll be carried in 8×8 luncher , range 150-500km , ll have accuracy of less than 10mt , warhead of 350kg to 700kg .
 

Hari Sud

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With sale to Armenia of Pinaka rocket system, it will cool off that victory enthusiasm of Azerbaijan. The Azerbaijan blew up everything on ground with Turkish Bayractar UAV and Armenians had to accept a defeat in their last fight two years back. Not anymore, now the Armenians can blow up everything in Azerbaijan with Pinaka rockets. The first to be blown up are the bases from which Bayractar UAVs originated…… cheers
 

mokoman

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Who said HIMARS has "accuracy of 1-2 meters"? Its got "less than 15 meters CEP" based on this official document:-

View attachment 174338
Sauce: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2017-12-08/html/2017-26454.htm

More importantly, 1-2 meters CEP is stupidly accurate. You can't pull it off with just INS/GPS, even if you are America. How do I know? Because the Americans have to use Differential GPS to achieve 5 to 8 meters CEP on their Small Diameter Bomb (SDB) despite their SDB having lesser impact velocity and much higher control authority than a GMLRS. They have to rely on a seekers to get sub meter accuracy on SDB I and II. Neither differential GPS nor seeker are available to you when you are trying to hit targets 80 km into the enemy rear area with a cheap MLRS. You can only rely on GPS/INS. Which means 1-2 meters CEP for HIMARS is impossible.


60-80 meters is written on that poster, but CEP is not. So by 60-80 meters, they could just as easily mean R99, not CEP. Meaning 99% of all rounds fall within 60-80 meters. Plus, the range is stated to be 80 km when we know the latest test got to 90 km mark. Which means the poster is likely outdated (although not to say that he accuracy would have definitely improved, but its a possibility).

Plus, if we look at that image posted by @karn of the guided pinaka landing within 10 meters, CEP might actually be much smaller than 60-80 meters. Someone needs to ask at the Defexpo what exactly the CEP is.


With bomblets or PF warhead that airbursts and gives a tungsten pellet shower effective upto 60 meter radius, we can take care of these issues. The idea with MLRS is carpet bombing. The blast radii need to overlap and with bomblets, it won't matter. You are a gone case unless you are infantry in a slit trench. Weapon emplacements, especially those of artillery are not just 2-3 meters, they are a bit wider. And with bomblets, they are bound to pepper the inside of each emplacement. (Assuming no slopes, because they do increase miss distances drastically). And then there is the PF warhead with tungsten pellet shower that would look something like this;-

Even if Pinaka Guided has a 60 meter CEP, with three/four rockets carrying these PF warheads, we can easily sanitize the target with 99.7% certainty (even if they are emplaced).



MRPKS is meant to do that, but small drones are much slower and vulnerable to interception with new gen SHORADs. Not to mention their smaller warhead capacity. Plus, wartime production supply chains at least for munitions needs to go independent of foreigners to ensure rapid ramp up and no supply chain disruption possibility. Can we do that with drone avionics?

Point is these two weapons are complimentary. Look at the Europeans, they are complementing their MLRS with tube-launched drone swarms, similar thinking prevails in IA where they are going for both MLRS and MRPKS.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________


Folks, stop overplaying the difference in accuracy between HIMARS and Pinaka. Yes HIMARS is likely more accurate, but HIMARS CEP is around 10-15 meters, not 1-2 meters. And Pinaka's CEP is not known with complete certainty.
And with Pinaka carrying submunitions or a PF warhead that can airburst and pepper everything in a 60 meter radius with hypervelocity tungsten pellets, its accurate enough unless you are trying to take down structures, tanks or APC. For tanks or APC, we can employ area denial munitions of Pinaka. And for bunkers, thermobaric warhead can work but since accuracy isn't good enough for direct hit, multiple rockets would be needed. But then the bunker can't displace, so its not as if we won't have the chance to take subsequent shots. Based on the exact CEP, a set number of guided rockets (around 4-5) would guarantee a precision strike against such point targets that require a direct hit from the rocket.
what ever it is , its impressive . looks <2m to me.

 
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Okabe Rintarou

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what ever it is , its impressive . looks <5m to me.

I am fed up with this Russo-Ukrainian war propaganda. Please don't make me parse through all this bull$hit especially on unrelated threads.
1.) Can't make anything out from that sat image. Zoom right in, I can't make out the craters inside those red circles.

2.) So I go to the twitter thread and the dude has posted a video of trucks on that bridge and the craters can be seen there. Only thing I see here are craters that don't look like the work of a 100 kg unitary warhead. You sure these weren't submunitions from a multiple rockets? Because that is what they look like to me.

3.) And then there is another image of a bridge with these craters spaced very close together:-


^ This again doesn't look like the work of a 100 kg unitary warhead. Those siderails would have been gone if that many 100 kg warheads had gone off that many times. But they appear fine.

Point is, they are showing bomblets falling on a bridge and damaging it and expect us to believe these are all individual strikes by individual HIMARS rockets? You wouldn't get that good a deal without using Differential GPS. Now tell me, do they have ground stations that can provide differential GPS at that location? Ofc not.

Are the bomblets that landed on the bridge the only ones? Likely not. But I am not about to look for the rest in the river.

And all this is assuming that it even is HIMARS and not damage sustained from other weapons like loitering munitions, mortars or other artillery (guess that would depend on where the frontlines were when these pics came out). But I ain't got the time to look that deep into it, especially when we have an official source stating what the CEP is like.

Whatever it is, its not proof of the mythical 1 meter CEP of HIMARS. And like I said before, go and look at what they had to do to SDB to make it that accurate. Won't just happen with GPS/INS alone. which is what HIMARS guidance is.
 

mokoman

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I am fed up with this Russo-Ukrainian war propaganda. Please don't make me parse through all this bull$hit especially on unrelated threads.
1.) Can't make anything out from that sat image. Zoom right in, I can't make out the craters inside those red circles.

2.) So I go to the twitter thread and the dude has posted a video of trucks on that bridge and the craters can be seen there. Only thing I see here are craters that don't look like the work of a 100 kg unitary warhead. You sure these weren't submunitions from a multiple rockets? Because that is what they look like to me.

3.) And then there is another image of a bridge with these craters spaced very close together:-


^ This again doesn't look like the work of a 100 kg unitary warhead. Those siderails would have been gone if that many 100 kg warheads had gone off that many times. But they appear fine.

Point is, they are showing bomblets falling on a bridge and damaging it and expect us to believe these are all individual strikes by individual HIMARS rockets? You wouldn't get that good a deal without using Differential GPS. Now tell me, do they have ground stations that can provide differential GPS at that location? Ofc not.

Are the bomblets that landed on the bridge the only ones? Likely not. But I am not about to look for the rest in the river.

And all this is assuming that it even is HIMARS and not damage sustained from other weapons like loitering munitions, mortars or other artillery (guess that would depend on where the frontlines were when these pics came out). But I ain't got the time to look that deep into it, especially when we have an official source stating what the CEP is like.

Whatever it is, its not proof of the mythical 1 meter CEP of HIMARS. And like I said before, go and look at what they had to do to SDB to make it that accurate. Won't just happen with GPS/INS alone. which is what HIMARS guidance is.
there is a video . this looks like <2m accuracy to me .


image u posted is another bridge - they spread out the strike to make the bridge unusable. Russians ended up using a pontoon ferry.

 

karn

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there is a video . this looks like <2m accuracy to me .


image u posted is another bridge - they spread out the strike to make the bridge unusable. Russians ended up using a pontoon ferry.

The bridge looks about 60ft wide .. within the accuracy of the himars .. size of the craters does indicates a warhead size far less than 100kgs . And its not like we will get to know about any of the submuntions that went into the river.
 

prateikf

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With sale to Armenia of Pinaka rocket system, it will cool off that victory enthusiasm of Azerbaijan. The Azerbaijan blew up everything on ground with Turkish Bayractar UAV and Armenians had to accept a defeat in their last fight two years back. Not anymore, now the Armenians can blow up everything in Azerbaijan with Pinaka rockets. The first to be blown up are the bases from which Bayractar UAVs originated…… cheers
That’s wishful thinking. Azerbaijan is more than 3 times larger than Armenia in size with vast riches in oil and gas, powerful allies like Israel and Turkey and huge arsenal of various arms from TB-2, Harop, LORA ballistic missiles etc while tiny Armenia is landlocked and faced with a shrinking economy and population. With its main ally Russia bogged down in Ukraine it will be very difficult for it to face Azeri forces on its own with or without Pinaka. Also, not to forget that Armenia and Artsakh were in possession of powerful Russian systems such as S-300 and Smerch during the 44 day war.
 

Hari Sud

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That’s wishful thinking. Azerbaijan is more than 3 times larger than Armenia in size with vast riches in oil and gas, powerful allies like Israel and Turkey and huge arsenal of various arms from TB-2, Harop, LORA ballistic missiles etc while tiny Armenia is landlocked and faced with a shrinking economy and population. With its main ally Russia bogged down in Ukraine it will be very difficult for it to face Azeri forces on its own with or without Pinaka. Also, not to forget that Armenia and Artsakh were in possession of powerful Russian systems such as S-300 and Smerch during the 44 day war.
‘Russia is four times bigger than Ukraine, but still Russia is bogged down in Ukraine .
 

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