Indian forces kill 23-year-old Pakistani ‘border crosser’

Singh

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Indian forces kill 23-year-old Pakistani ‘border crosser’

* Indian, Pakistani security officials reported injured in cross-border firing

ISLAMABAD/LAHORE: The Indian Border Security Force on Saturday killed a Pakistani youth, assuming that he was trying to cross the border in the Hadiara area near Sahankey village.

According to Hadiara Moharrar Rana Afzaal, the unidentified 23-year-old was just carrying a bucket. He said the boy appeared mentally unstable. He said Pakistan Rangers personnel handed the body to the police, which has been sent to the city mortuary for autopsy.

Online quoted a private TV channel as reporting that the Indian forces opened fire on the boy without provocation.

Inquiry: Meanwhile, the federal government has ordered an inquiry into the killing of the Pakistani youth and injuries to some Indian and Pakistani border security personnel during the ensuing crossfire.

A private TV channel quoted security sources as saying the incident took place when a boy tried to cross the border. During an exchange of fire, mortars were also fired.

Military sources said border force officers from both sides held a meeting to determine the cause of the incident and resolved to rule out a recurrence.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan
 

EnlightenedMonk

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If the boy was indeed mentally unstable, then its a big loss for his parents and may his soul rest in peace...

But, on the other hand, you cannot be too careful with these things, what if it was a Mujahideen acting like mentally unstable to try and cross the border unnoticed???
 

Antimony

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Indian forces kill 23-year-old Pakistani ‘border crosser’
Online quoted a private TV channel as reporting that the Indian forces opened fire on the boy without provocation.
What BS!!!

You cross into the NML zone, and the border guards have the right to take action, period. What the eff were the Pakistani rangers doing allowing a "mentally unstable" guy loll around the border?
 

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Better be safe than sorry. Indian forces did the right thing. It doesn't matter if he mentally stable or unstable. The pigs that attacked Mumbai were also mentally unstable.
 

S.A.T.A

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That's precisely why we have a border and border guards,to prevent 150 million mental retards from crossing over into our border.

feel sorry for the retard though..shanti!
 

ZOOM

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That's precisely why we have a border and border guards,to prevent 150 million mental retards from crossing over into our border.

feel sorry for the retard though..shanti!
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha, I cannot stop from laughing. Keep it up SATA Sir, Your wisdom is truly made up of pearl.:dazed:
 

Energon

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This is a highly unfortunate event. I do not however see the point in dehumanizing a mentally ill person.

As India rises in stature so will the standards it is held to. There is no doubt that the border issue with Pakistan is a very serious one, nor can any one deny based on repeated incidents at rather alarming rates that the threat of the "barbarians at the gates" is all too real. Having said that there has to be some sort of progress in ensuring that not all border crossers meet the same fate, considering not all of them are barbarians. The cases of unintentional crossings and unwarranted detention-incarceration-torture etc. are more frequent than we think.

Unless its a suicide bombing attempt upon the BSF (for which there is no historical precedent AFAIK), it is highly unlikely that cross border terrorists would make their presence so evident; generally its the exact opposite.

There are other effective but non lethal means of addressing these situations, and IMHO it is high time the Indian border security agencies started investing in them.
 

Antimony

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This is a highly unfortunate event. I do not however see the point in dehumanizing a mentally ill person.

As India rises in stature so will the standards it is held to. There is no doubt that the border issue with Pakistan is a very serious one, nor can any one deny based on repeated incidents at rather alarming rates that the threat of the "barbarians at the gates" is all too real. Having said that there has to be some sort of progress in ensuring that not all border crossers meet the same fate, considering not all of them are barbarians. The cases of unintentional crossings and unwarranted detention-incarceration-torture etc. are more frequent than we think.
The statement that this was a mentally ill person came from the Pakistani official at Hadiara. And anyway, that classification is neither here nor there.

This is a highly charged border post, and events such the 26/11 show just how vulnerable India remains. I would say that this justifies the response from the Indian forces.

DAWN.COM | Pakistan | Nationality of BSF firing victim yet to be ascertained

Also, please check out the picture in this link. I do not see how you can have an unintentional crossing where the border is demarcated and fenced in like this. It is also not clear how the Pakistani Rangers tried to stop the man, or if they tried to contat their BSF counterparts. Even if they did, the man could still have carried explosives and would have anyway posed a danger to the BSF

Unless its a suicide bombing attempt upon the BSF (for which there is no historical precedent AFAIK), it is highly unlikely that cross border terrorists would make their presence so evident; generally its the exact opposite.
Remember the Beirut Marine Barracks bombing?
1983 Beirut barracks bombing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Oh, by the way, there weren't any precedences for either 9/11 or 26/11

I would repeat, the imperative to stop any escalation is on the side from whom the infiltration/ crossing is occurring.

If an Indian died while crossing into Pakistani territory, it would still be an unfortunate incident (as this one undoubtably is), but I don't think I would have faulted the Pakistani rangers
 

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That's precisely why we have a border and border guards,to prevent 150 million mental retards from crossing over into our border.

feel sorry for the retard though..shanti!
150 million mental retards . you sure are showing your indian wisdom.
 

Antimony

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150 million mental retards . you sure are showing your indian wisdom.
Sure feels like we are a bunch of uncivilised barbarians, doesn't it. I wonder though what your feelings would be if you had lost 53,000 of your countrymen in one decade, with a majority resulting from "moral support" of a neighbouring country
 

Singh

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Guys lets leave out name calling. :)

Energon,
I think it is worth mentioning that this incident comes in the wake of RPG attacks upon Indian Punjab villages from across the border, allegedly by LeT.

Many a times the violators(including Pak soldiers) on the Indian Punjab sector are repatriated after completing the rather lengthy formalities.
 

Ray

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This is a highly unfortunate event. I do not however see the point in dehumanizing a mentally ill person.

As India rises in stature so will the standards it is held to. There is no doubt that the border issue with Pakistan is a very serious one, nor can any one deny based on repeated incidents at rather alarming rates that the threat of the "barbarians at the gates" is all too real. Having said that there has to be some sort of progress in ensuring that not all border crossers meet the same fate, considering not all of them are barbarians. The cases of unintentional crossings and unwarranted detention-incarceration-torture etc. are more frequent than we think.

Unless its a suicide bombing attempt upon the BSF (for which there is no historical precedent AFAIK), it is highly unlikely that cross border terrorists would make their presence so evident; generally its the exact opposite.

There are other effective but non lethal means of addressing these situations, and IMHO it is high time the Indian border security agencies started investing in them.
It is unfortunate that a mentally ill person has been killed, providing we take the Pakistani statement as the Gospel.

The border outposts are not bang on the border. They are further back and hence one cannot make out who is mentally imbalanced and who is sane.

Given the environment where Pakistan promotes terrorist crossings including using covering fire, it is academically idealistic to state that not all border crossers should be fired upon. Further, eVeryone, on either side of the border, is aware that one does not approach anywhere near the border since either side is very alert and will take preventive action, which is firing.

As anyone who has worked in a CI environment is aware, a bucket is an ideal recepticle for powerful IEDs. Therefore, suspicion is but natural.

What are the other non lethal ways to stop the border crossing by terrorists and others?

I believe in the US, the border guards fire upon and even kill Mexicans crossing the border for a better economic life. And they are not even terrorists!!
 

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so what is the point of this thread, what we are tring to say that BSF should not do its duty to guard indian borders, one invader dead is one invader less. if not; then BSF must do telepathy before firing shot at invaders,
what majaority of pakistanis saying about sarabjeet whould be intresting to post here.
Quote (Pakistani) '' hang RAW agent sarabjeet ASAP and gift wrap back to india. and many more.
 

S.A.T.A

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150 million mental retards . you sure are showing your indian wisdom.
If you still have any lingerings doubt,come to Mumbai or just follow the dailies regularly.We recently treated nine metal retards from across the border and one still undergoing treatment before he finally relieved of his ailment once and for all.

freakin retards.
 

Ray

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Indians are not the mentally retards.

Just look around and you will find a whole lot!
 

Flint

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Rite - lets keep on topic folks. No more retard-ed discussions please!
 

venom

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Who asked him to cross the border........... He paid for his action, that's it don't make a fuss about it.....
 

Ray

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One has to understand the realities of the Indo Pak border to realise what is up and how difficult the situation is.

None want to kill wantonly.

We are also human!
 

Energon

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Guys lets leave out name calling. :)

Energon,
I think it is worth mentioning that this incident comes in the wake of RPG attacks upon Indian Punjab villages from across the border, allegedly by LeT.

Many a times the violators(including Pak soldiers) on the Indian Punjab sector are repatriated after completing the rather lengthy formalities.
I am not for a second belittling the sheer magnanimity of the danger surrounding the Indo-Pak border.What I am saying however is that the border control mechanism has to evolve beyond the "shoot everything that moves" setting that has been prevalent since 1965.

I don't mean this in a purely defensive context inspired by some misguided sense of tree hugging liberalism. Inflammatory border management (I made that phrase up, but you get the idea) is an art and science in itself that has critical security, financial, political and geopolitical consequences for a country like India. It behooves India to be creative and dynamic in dealing with these ground realities that affect it in real time by using the new wealth of resources it is acquiring.

Law and order aspects in addition to intelligence have to be integrated into the border management scheme which is at this point almost exclusively conventional military oriented. Not only will that reduce the number of accidental deaths but will also make India look more professional.

Ray said:
I believe in the US, the border guards fire upon and even kill Mexicans crossing the border for a better economic life. And they are not even terrorists!!
I have no idea where you heard this but it is categorically wrong. The US border agencies aren't allowed to engage anyone one in combat unless they're fired upon first (which happens with drug smugglers). If caught, the trespassers are fed, clothed given medical attention and sent back to Mexico to try again until they get it right. There are no national security guard or other militarized agencies posted along the border which has created a lot of furor (but very little action) in the past few years. If anything the border security guards here need to take some lessons from India.
 

Antimony

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I am not for a second belittling the sheer magnanimity of the danger surrounding the Indo-Pak border.What I am saying however is that the border control mechanism has to evolve beyond the "shoot everything that moves" setting that has been prevalent since 1965.
The military oriented border arrangement is not "shoot everything that moves". Take a look at the picture I posted. This is a fenced border with a demarcated No Man's Land. If after initial warnings a possible perpetrator contunues to approach, I think it is eminently reasonable to expect that the guards would engage, especially in light of all we see coming from across the border.

Sure, we can have fancy stuff like tasers and water cannons and all that stuff but

1. SOPs for use of any such equipment would probably have to be discussed with the Pakistani counterparts, and they would have to be on board.
2. If we really had that money, I would use it for safety equipment and other items for our own troops

I don't mean this in a purely defensive context inspired by some misguided sense of tree hugging liberalism. Inflammatory border management (I made that phrase up, but you get the idea) is an art and science in itself that has critical security, financial, political and geopolitical consequences for a country like India. It behooves India to be creative and dynamic in dealing with these ground realities that affect it in real time by using the new wealth of resources it is acquiring.

Law and order aspects in addition to intelligence have to be integrated into the border management scheme which is at this point almost exclusively conventional military oriented. Not only will that reduce the number of accidental deaths but will also make India look more professional.
Regardless of any new found status that we may or may not have acquired, we still have a border in the context of which infiltration results in terrorism and not illegal immigrants trying to take away jobs. Our troops have every right to try and protect us. I believe the Pakistanis would have the exact same view about us, and it would be justified

I have no idea where you heard this but it is categorically wrong. The US border agencies aren't allowed to engage anyone one in combat unless they're fired upon first (which happens with drug smugglers). If caught, the trespassers are fed, clothed given medical attention and sent back to Mexico to try again until they get it right. There are no national security guard or other militarized agencies posted along the border which has created a lot of furor (but very little action) in the past few years. If anything the border security guards here need to take some lessons from India.
You are right about that. I heard of 2 BP agents convicted because they shot a fleeting perpetrator.

However, the US Mexican border is not the volatile nuclear flashpoint that the India-Pakistan border is (though with the rise in Mexican drug violence, maybe a bit more security is a good idea). A comparable analogy in that is the India Bangladesh border, where bangladeshi immigrants cross in for a better economic future (one reason why I understand America's pain ariuond the immigration issue).
 

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