Indian Economy: News and Discussion

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Still a long way to go.. only IISc is the basic science univ. among the 10 universities.. rest are all IITs and IIMs.
We must not make comparison with west at all when it comes to education. Marxshit bs has already captured their universities and generating viciously retarded sheep every year.

Modi goverment has done a good job so far but there are some issues which require immediate attention.I am pointing towards the abysmal delay in the last six years to initiate a single reform in the sphere of shiksha and vidya. I am using the words of Sanskrit origin rather than their generic english equivalent, education, because they carry more depth and weight.

While shiksha, howsoever basic, is within the reach of most, only a handful have a penchant for vidya. Our factories of education have for decades been churning out graduates and post graduates in whom the seed of vidya has never sprouted. Vidya begets wisdom, the glaring lack of whichs is the single biggest reason for the protracted delay in the makeover of India into Bharat. Once this is done , the jnu virus will choke out and die automatically.

We have a very long way to go. Modi ji, needs to expedite at least initiate the process of making a clean break with the past on a seminal issue like education. It is not the lack of progress but the unwanted delay. Focus on 5 trillion gdp seems to be a bigger priority for him. Its right too in its own sense. At the same time , given the seminal importance of shiksha in the transition to a Dharmic Nationalist State, Modiji you cant afford to ignore this for long. Expedite now !
 

Edinburgh

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In fact, no university in India is ranked in the top 100, the highest is 172 IITB . The media only selects some sub-subjects rankings and Indian universities are in the top 100

Among the top 100 universities are from United States , China, Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Britain, Germany, France, Australia, Belgium, Canada, Italy,New Zealand, Russia, Spain, Malaysia, Switzerland
 
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Crazywithmath

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12 BHARTIYA institutions named among top 100 universities in world : Education Minister

See - https://zeenews.india.com/india/12-...inister-ramesh-pokhriyal-nishank-2345769.html
Don't read too much into these rankings. There are some issues regarding with these rankings unique to India that just cannot be solved! While I agree that Indian universities need massive improvement and people need to look beyond engineering and MBA after 12th ( this strange fetish with IITs, NITs, IIMs, DTU, JU(Engg) needs to stop ASAP and we need more institutions like- IISc, IISER, NISER, TIFR, ISI, CMI etc); these rankings have their own shortcomings. There are reasons why Indian universities are not ranked higher. This requires a separate thread; will make it when I have time.
N.B.- A bit of info about myself: I studied in one of the 'so-called' best engineering institutes in India and did further study in a uni that ranks among the top 20 globally. So I have some basic knowledge about how these rankings are given. Will make a separate thread on it.
 

ezsasa

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Don't read too much into these rankings. There are some issues regarding with these rankings unique to India that just cannot be solved! While I agree that Indian universities need massive improvement and people need to look beyond engineering and MBA after 12th ( this strange fetish with IITs, NITs, IIMs, DTU, JU(Engg) needs to stop ASAP and we need more institutions like- IISc, IISER, NISER, TIFR, ISI, CMI etc); these rankings have their own shortcomings. There are reasons why Indian universities are not ranked higher. This requires a separate thread; will make it when I have time.
N.B.- A bit of info about myself: I studied in one of the 'so-called' best engineering institutes in India and did further study in a uni that ranks among the top 20 globally. So I have some basic knowledge about how these rankings are given. Will make a separate thread on it.
we are interested to know why indian institutions don't rank higher, do write a post on it whenever you have time. appreciated.
 

DG7867

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We must not make comparison with west at all when it comes to education. Marxshit bs has already captured their universities and generating viciously retarded sheep every year.

Modi goverment has done a good job so far but there are some issues which require immediate attention.I am pointing towards the abysmal delay in the last six years to initiate a single reform in the sphere of shiksha and vidya. I am using the words of Sanskrit origin rather than their generic english equivalent, education, because they carry more depth and weight.

While shiksha, howsoever basic, is within the reach of most, only a handful have a penchant for vidya. Our factories of education have for decades been churning out graduates and post graduates in whom the seed of vidya has never sprouted. Vidya begets wisdom, the glaring lack of whichs is the single biggest reason for the protracted delay in the makeover of India into Bharat. Once this is done , the jnu virus will choke out and die automatically.

We have a very long way to go. Modi ji, needs to expedite at least initiate the process of making a clean break with the past on a seminal issue like education. It is not the lack of progress but the unwanted delay. Focus on 5 trillion gdp seems to be a bigger priority for him. Its right too in its own sense. At the same time , given the seminal importance of shiksha in the transition to a Dharmic Nationalist State, Modiji you cant afford to ignore this for long. Expedite now !
Not intending to compare with west, but they too have separation between basic science universities (Princeton,UCLA) and applied science universities (MIT&Caltech). Right now we have many good IITs but only one IISc. Like IITs, we need atleast 1 IISc per state (for states like UP, MH, atleast 2). Only then we can truly get into top 10 by creating competition among IIScs. Re. leftist capture of institutes, we too need to do HUAC hearings-like hearings like America did in 50's.
 

Crazywithmath

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What look at various science olympiads Chinese students often win those competitions they have invested billions in their primary education and years later are seeing the benefits of that we should do the same and maintain a high level of education from the primary layer so that our labour force becomes educated
Getting Olympiad medals are not important, conducting basic research is. Chinese participants win tons of medals every year in those competitions. With all due respect to them, how many of them conduct actual game-changing research? I always get astonished at our inferiority complex. A lot of those medal winners achieve absolutely nothing later during conducting actual research works. Chinese participants bag 1st place almost every year in maths Olympiads. How many Chinese people have won Fields medal or Abel Prize? Zero (the only person who won Fields medal gave up on Chinese citizenship)! Similar in other Olympiads also. They have a robust ecosystem in China that selects people from high school and give them rigorous training ( similar to what they do in sports Olympic ). As a consequence those students become very adept at solving problems. But here comes the twist! Most of the problems in those competitions are simply reverse engineered and further simplified. What it means is that somebody has already solved it. Also in case of maths there are many tricks and tools that make problems much much easier. That means if you know those tricks you are good to go! But what about actual mind boggling research? Something that nobody has done before? No trick and no shortcut will work there! The French students perform terribly in math Olympiads but when it comes to actual research they are at the top of the top. And this hue and cry about brain drain that I see in India is utter nonsense. China and southeast Asian nations suffer far more from it than what we do. Brain drain will always be an issue for us however from what I see it has gradually decreased over the last decade or so. When I talk with my seniors they say that about two decades ago people literally used to come to my alma matter to get the degree and emigrate. This is not the case anymore. A lot of people actually come back and work in India after completion of education. Some go and work there for some experience; so rather than brain drain what is mostly happening in India rn is brain migration.
FYI, India actually performs quite well in those Olympiads. Very recently(2018) India ranked 2nd in physics Olympiad. Guess who was first? Yep! China:)
 

Rxbanda

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Don't read too much into these rankings. There are some issues regarding with these rankings unique to India that just cannot be solved! While I agree that Indian universities need massive improvement and people need to look beyond engineering and MBA after 12th ( this strange fetish with IITs, NITs, IIMs, DTU, JU(Engg) needs to stop ASAP and we need more institutions like- IISc, IISER, NISER, TIFR, ISI, CMI etc); these rankings have their own shortcomings. There are reasons why Indian universities are not ranked higher. This requires a separate thread; will make it when I have time.
N.B.- A bit of info about myself: I studied in one of the 'so-called' best engineering institutes in India and did further study in a uni that ranks among the top 20 globally. So I have some basic knowledge about how these rankings are given. Will make a separate thread on it.
Please tag me when you start from the thread.
Rankings tell nothing. I also come from a top 10 Indian university (bachelors). PhD in good US univ. but post doc in top 5 in my field.
I will also have some inputs for the thread.
 

Rxbanda

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we are interested to know why indian institutions don't rank higher, do write a post on it whenever you have time. appreciated.
I don't want to get into ranking. But let's talk about quality of education and research.
We have to agree that our education system is messed up. (I am talking only about bachelors to PhD/postdoc level of education).

1) Faculty recruitment: there is so much politics and bureaucracy in this. I have been applying for faculty positions. I was surprised to find that most govt institutes don't see the quality of work. For them a PhD is a PhD. You do a PhD from Harvard or from somewhere in Haryana, they are 'graded' the same.

I recently had a meeting with a faculty in a central university. He was so frustrated with the system and asked me to not even apply. The reason is 'babus' acc to him (yes, he used the word babu). He and his colleagues have post-doctoral experience of 4-8 years in good labs from US/Germany, but it is not being counted as experience for their promotion to higher positions.

People don't even know how to conduct an interview (not all). PhD is about research. You should ask me about what research I did and what I can bring to your place. One of my seniors got an interview call from a CSIR lab recently. He has 4+yrs of post-doc experience. The committee gave him 10 minutes to present his past research and future plan. Is that even possible?

Outdated approach to screen candidates. None of my US interviewers asked my grades in bachelors. In India, they ask me 10th standard marks list. Seriously?

And there is so much politics. Bengalis want only bengalis to be hired. Like that. One of my friends who has a PhD from Australia and excellent research couldn't make it to a position. It was later on given to someone from local Bengal university. The dean and director of that university are Bengalis.

This is one aspect of it.

2) Outdated syllabus. In my Masters in India (from one of the best in my field), the coursework I was taught was at least 30-35 years outdated. Even in the US, academia is behind the industry by several years. But in India it is too much gap. How much of the knowledge we gain in B.Tech is being applied in our jobs?
Students should get the opportunity to work more on real time projects. Not fixed lab practicals.

3) Funding. We spend a very small percentage of our GDP on funding. Also, previously, govt institutes used to get most of it. I know many professors in CSIR labs who know nothing about research, they don't contribute to even 1% of their students' PhDs. But they get funding.
I heard that after Modi came to power, he scrapped this. Not sure, but now even in govt. labs, a PI will get funding only if his research proposal is approved.

4) Applied sciences: IMO, India is stuck in basic sciences. IISC is great. IISERs are doing very good job. But their focus is basic sciences. We don't have many which works on applied sciences. Like interdisciplinary research at interface of chemistry, biology and computational. I wonder how many labs give such training. The world has already moved to this. We are stuck in basic science research.
We have a massive generic pharma industry. But see how many new drugs were made in India. I believe its zero. (I read somewhere recently the first India-made compound got FDA approval. Need to follow it up). This is a shame.

5) Administration and teaching is being mixed. Read Quora about IIT faculty. Many students opine that a majority of the profs think they are great profs.. but are totally outdated. These faculty are good at management and go up the hierarchy based on administrative positions.

There are many other reasons...
I am in biomedical research.. so I am speaking from that perspective. Maybe, other fields are doing good. I hope IIST is good.. ISRO is probably the best in the world.
Of course, in biomedical research there are a few labs which are good. Not negating everything..
 

Crazywithmath

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I don't want to get into ranking. But let's talk about quality of education and research.
We have to agree that our education system is messed up. (I am talking only about bachelors to PhD/postdoc level of education).

1) Faculty recruitment: there is so much politics and bureaucracy in this. I have been applying for faculty positions. I was surprised to find that most govt institutes don't see the quality of work. For them a PhD is a PhD. You do a PhD from Harvard or from somewhere in Haryana, they are 'graded' the same.

I recently had a meeting with a faculty in a central university. He was so frustrated with the system and asked me to not even apply. The reason is 'babus' acc to him (yes, he used the word babu). He and his colleagues have post-doctoral experience of 4-8 years in good labs from US/Germany, but it is not being counted as experience for their promotion to higher positions.

People don't even know how to conduct an interview (not all). PhD is about research. You should ask me about what research I did and what I can bring to your place. One of my seniors got an interview call from a CSIR lab recently. He has 4+yrs of post-doc experience. The committee gave him 10 minutes to present his past research and future plan. Is that even possible?

Outdated approach to screen candidates. None of my US interviewers asked my grades in bachelors. In India, they ask me 10th standard marks list. Seriously?

And there is so much politics. Bengalis want only bengalis to be hired. Like that. One of my friends who has a PhD from Australia and excellent research couldn't make it to a position. It was later on given to someone from local Bengal university. The dean and director of that university are Bengalis.

This is one aspect of it.

2) Outdated syllabus. In my Masters in India (from one of the best in my field), the coursework I was taught was at least 30-35 years outdated. Even in the US, academia is behind the industry by several years. But in India it is too much gap. How much of the knowledge we gain in B.Tech is being applied in our jobs?
Students should get the opportunity to work more on real time projects. Not fixed lab practicals.

3) Funding. We spend a very small percentage of our GDP on funding. Also, previously, govt institutes used to get most of it. I know many professors in CSIR labs who know nothing about research, they don't contribute to even 1% of their students' PhDs. But they get funding.
I heard that after Modi came to power, he scrapped this. Not sure, but now even in govt. labs, a PI will get funding only if his research proposal is approved.

4) Applied sciences: IMO, India is stuck in basic sciences. IISC is great. IISERs are doing very good job. But their focus is basic sciences. We don't have many which works on applied sciences. Like interdisciplinary research at interface of chemistry, biology and computational. I wonder how many labs give such training. The world has already moved to this. We are stuck in basic science research.
We have a massive generic pharma industry. But see how many new drugs were made in India. I believe its zero. (I read somewhere recently the first India-made compound got FDA approval. Need to follow it up). This is a shame.

5) Administration and teaching is being mixed. Read Quora about IIT faculty. Many students opine that a majority of the profs think they are great profs.. but are totally outdated. These faculty are good at management and go up the hierarchy based on administrative positions.

There are many other reasons...
I am in biomedical research.. so I am speaking from that perspective. Maybe, other fields are doing good. I hope IIST is good.. ISRO is probably the best in the world.
Of course, in biomedical research there are a few labs which are good. Not negating everything..
Precisely my point! Spot on! Just like many students I went through JEE, did my bachelor's in civil engineering and later made a shift to applied maths( it's not like I hated engineering or anything but maths was always my first love). You have no idea what bullsh*t I would have to go through to get myself admitted in an IIT through JAM despite having a decent enough rank just coz I was from engineering background. They had this stupid rule that no candidate would get admitted unless they had done course on that subject for at least 4 semesters and I had maths for only 3 semesters in my engineering! I was also selected for M.Math. in a very prestigious institute in India ( you can easily guess the name ) and joined there. Just tell me why do they need to be so rigid about a student's background? The top US unis are way more flexible when it comes to giving admission. Then there is reservation!!!! Most of the professors from reserved class know absolutely nothing. I also agree with you that we need to move to applied research more and more. For this we need funds. I heard that Modi's cabinet agreed to spend 2% of GDP on R&D after implementing NEP. If this happens then this is a welcome shift. One of my friend from ISI Bang had to leave India to do research on a specific aspect of robotics just coz nobody was willing to fund her. Her concept was unique and UC Berkeley was doing something similar. She joined their team.
Besides, governments need to be more flexible while giving young people a chance. A senior of mine from mechanical engineering background proposed to replace a very costly hardware system in a defence equipment, that was being imported, with a software based one ( and thereby reducing the cost by a massive amount ). The DRDO babus literally shooed him away. I can go on and on. My one other friend became a professor at IIM Udaipur and he was so disappointed with the bureaucracy that he gave resignation and moved back to Purdue. That same friend is currently working with a start-up in Bangalore and he says that the present government is willing to help out the start-ups. So at least on the start-up front the government seems to be trying to help out.
In my opinion, just deregulate sectors and give the institutions more autonomy. Indians are talented people; they do not need the babus to be the torchbearers.
As for the ranking part, will make a separate thread soon and tag you. :)
Just curious, do you plan to return? I know things are messed up here but we need more people like you. :):)
 

Rxbanda

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Precisely my point! Spot on! Just like many students I went through JEE, did my bachelor's in civil engineering and later made a shift to applied maths( it's not like I hated engineering or anything but maths was always my first love). You have no idea what bullsh*t I would have to go through to get myself admitted in an IIT through JAM despite having a decent enough rank just coz I was from engineering background. They had this stupid rule that no candidate would get admitted unless they had done course on that subject for at least 4 semesters and I had maths for only 3 semesters in my engineering! I was also selected for M.Math. in a very prestigious institute in India ( you can easily guess the name ) and joined there. Just tell me why do they need to be so rigid about a student's background? The top US unis are way more flexible when it comes to giving admission. Then there is reservation!!!! Most of the professors from reserved class know absolutely nothing. I also agree with you that we need to move to applied research more and more. For this we need funds. I heard that Modi's cabinet agreed to spend 2% of GDP on R&D after implementing NEP. If this happens then this is a welcome shift. One of my friend from ISI Bang had to leave India to do research on a specific aspect of robotics just coz nobody was willing to fund her. Her concept was unique and UC Berkeley was doing something similar. She joined their team.
Besides, governments need to be more flexible while giving young people a chance. A senior of mine from mechanical engineering background proposed to replace a very costly hardware system in a defence equipment, that was being imported, with a software based one ( and thereby reducing the cost by a massive amount ). The DRDO babus literally shooed him away. I can go on and on. My one other friend became a professor at IIM Udaipur and he was so disappointed with the bureaucracy that he gave resignation and moved back to Purdue. That same friend is currently working with a start-up in Bangalore and he says that the present government is willing to help out the start-ups. So at least on the start-up front the government seems to be trying to help out.
In my opinion, just deregulate sectors and give the institutions more autonomy. Indians are talented people; they do not need the babus to be the torchbearers.
As for the ranking part, will make a separate thread soon and tag you. :)
Just curious, do you plan to return? I know things are messed up here but we need more people like you. :):)
Yes, I plan to return to India. I heard from some recent recruits that the recruitment in IITs is getting better. I applied to some.
But now I am looking more towards private institutions. Some are doing good. No reservation (I am OC). Plus, I guess, i will get decent student quality. A couple directors showed interest in my CV. Let's see how things move on.
Life in US has its own drawbacks. For personal reasons, and love for teaching, I want to move back to India.

Are you already in a faculty position in India?

Mods will be angry that we are derailing the thread :)
 

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