Indian defence industry exports watch

[Tshering22]

Tshering whatever it may, anyone working with the govt organisation will fel like they are their employee and they will do the same as what DODO people are doing. People need to learn from Yankees on how to market their products.

That's why I said that government should contract private advertising firms that specialize in advertising technology related stuff and use their expertise to be a global exporter of arms. Think about it; our scientists who study our curriculum, our language, our thought process and are our people, go to the US/UK to make it big and design the same "Oh my God American super weapon" that India has to end up buying rather than propping up as her own asset to the world. How sad and disgusting is that? Why? Because of sarkari mechanism. The IIT dudes 2 years back came up with a brilliant UAV concept that MOD and armed forces due to their babu-giri just ignored.

Lockheed Martin sponsored those students and once they completed their degrees, they were offered a chance to work in LM's design bureau. And I won't be surprised if our shameless babudom would be one day buying these from Americans that was designed by the same students who were enthusiastic to work for India once.

This is what I am talking about. The ENTIRE defence structure has to be overhauled big time. More than 1 or 2 lakh of current coots and lazy-bums have to be fired and replaced with passionate, fierce and bubbling-with-ideas personnel in DEFENSE. They will make India one of the top arms exporting nations in the world alongside US, Russia and Israel.

 

[Tshering22]

Tshering whatever it may, anyone working with the govt organisation will fel like they are their employee and they will do the same as what DODO people are doing. People need to learn from Yankees on how to market their products.

That's why I said that government should contract private advertising firms that specialize in advertising technology related stuff and use their expertise to be a global exporter of arms. Think about it; our scientists who study our curriculum, our language, our thought process and are our people, go to the US/UK to make it big and design the same "Oh my God American super weapon" that India has to end up buying rather than propping up as her own asset to the world. How sad and disgusting is that? Why? Because of sarkari mechanism. The IIT dudes 2 years back came up with a brilliant UAV concept that MOD and armed forces due to their babu-giri just ignored.

Lockheed Martin sponsored those students and once they completed their degrees, they were offered a chance to work in LM's design bureau. And I won't be surprised if our shameless babudom would be one day buying these from Americans that was designed by the same students who were enthusiastic to work for India once.

This is what I am talking about. The ENTIRE defence structure has to be overhauled big time. More than 1 or 2 lakh of current coots and lazy-bums have to be fired and replaced with passionate, fierce and bubbling-with-ideas personnel in DEFENSE. They will make India one of the top arms exporting nations in the world alongside US, Russia and Israel.

 

[SHASH2K2]

That's why I said that government should contract private advertising firms that specialize in advertising technology related stuff and use their expertise to be a global exporter of arms.

I would differ a little . Arrangements like this will lead to more and more corruptions. we need to have a completely independent private sector partner and completely independent from GOI . they should market our products in international market on a fixed commisson basis. Role of GOI should be limited only to the approval of sale to foreign countries. It will be transparent and they should also have say in future development like Airforce, Army or Navy has . It will also lead to some accountability on part of research labs if they fail to deliver .

Think about it; our scientists who study our curriculum, our language, our thought process and are our people, go to the US/UK to make it big and design the same "Oh my God American super weapon" that India has to end up buying rather than propping up as her own asset to the world. How sad and disgusting is that? Why? Because of sarkari mechanism. The IIT dudes 2 years back came up with a brilliant UAV concept that MOD and armed forces due to their babu-giri just ignored.

Lockheed Martin sponsored those students and once they completed their degrees, they were offered a chance to work in LM's design bureau. And I won't be surprised if our shameless babudom would be one day buying these from Americans that was designed by the same students who were enthusiastic to work for India once.

This is what I am talking about. The ENTIRE defence structure has to be overhauled big time. More than 1 or 2 lakh of current coots and lazy-bums have to be fired and replaced with passionate, fierce and bubbling-with-ideas personnel in DEFENSE. They will make India one of the top arms exporting nations in the world alongside US, Russia and Israel.

Only way out of it is either privatization of labs or more and more participation from private sector. Private sector is showing interest but its upto the Government to let them flourish .

 

[Someoneforyou]

'Defence exports have dropped to laughable level'
6 February 2011

Defence exports from the country's Ordnance Factories have fallen to such meagre levels that the quantum is "laughable", a former Army General has said.

Defence exports from Ordnance Factories have slided from"a paltry Rs 41.07 crore in 2008-09 to a laughable Rs 12.28crore in 2009-10. It is a reflection of the nature and quality of items being produced indigenously," Maj Gen (Retd) Mrinal Suman said.

Suman regretted that India has also not been able to produce "a single defence system with cutting-edge technology".

There has been a "total failure" of policies governing foreign and private participation in defence production, with imports rising to as high as 75 per cent in 2009-10, Suman said writing in an article in the premier journal "Indian Defence Review".

Maintaining that all hopes raised by the 2002 Defence Procurement Procedure have been "belied", Suman said the last decade has been "a chronicle of tall claims, missed opportunities and inability to translate policies into implementable programmes. The current regime has been a totalfailure".

To buttress his point, Suman, who himself was associated with defence procurement while in office, said imports have climbed to 75 per cent rather than dropping to the targeted 30per cent.

"While every critical item is being imported, India continues to be happy producing (aircraft) doors and windows for foreign aviation majors," Suman said in an article in the premier journal "Indian Defence Review".

Despite "repeated assertions" of the government to integrate private sector in defence industry, "there is little progress on ground. The private sector continues to be a peripheral player" producing some low-tech items and components, he said.

Building a strong case for turning India into a manufacturing hub, he said for this, it was imperative that foreign direct investment (FDI) flows in.

However, FDI should be technology-centric with inherent flexibility. "It could be 26 per cent for low-tech products,51 to 74 per cent for matured systems and 75 to 100 per cent for cutting-edge technologies," he suggested.

Observing that all countries leverage offset clauses in consonance with their national economic priorities to fill an important technological or economic void, he said, "Strangely,India does not accept technology against offsets."

With the "current flawed policy", offsets were not contributing to upgrading of the indigenous technological base, he said, calling for amending the current offset policy to make transfer of technology the preferred mode.


Source: http://www.business-standard.com/in...ropped-to-\\039laughable-level\\039/124864/on

 

[joe81]

Indians are happy buying things from abroad. New meaningful systems can only be developed only if the private players also contribute. Till private players contribute exports will be near to ZERO

 

[Dark Sorrow]

This guy is giving half the picture. The demand is so huge on local level that there is very little scope for exports. Also the OFB and other defense industries are neither mechanized nor automated thus limiting the quantity and quality and looking at our policies neither mechanization nor automation can be implemented.
Until we have privatization in the defense sector the situation will change.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

It is a reflection of the nature and quality of items being produced indigenously," Maj Gen (Retd) Mrinal Suman said.

I agree here....

There is no question abt the product deign and capability, But how it is produced..

Private Sector should produce Army`s small arms..

 

[sukhoi30mki]

its due to monopoly of DRDO.

 

[neo29]

Currently we must have good amount of productions lines for our fighters, tanks, ships and other hardware. We are good at delays to induct in our own forces. With such a problem India must not think much of exports. Make yourself self sufficient and worthy enough for a good exporter.

 

[Mariner HK]

It really worries me as a Indian with great Ancient past.I wondered did we had some extra brain like Drop Tanks in the ancient times when we had greatest technology advancement in all field. We had a knowledge of starts its movements ,UFO (vimanas) greatest mega cities with 11 lac germ palaces ,Drainage system and much much more.When today nasa the world's best space agency ,Microsoft and many leading co has HUGE contribution from INDIAN. Once Bilgates said,If usa want to stop our recuirment of indian into microsoft We have no other option but to shift to INDIA. But,This 2nd largest population in the world,Country which thought humanity the ways to live like human is the worst weapon producers.Even small nations like Israel Japan Malaysia brazin singapore export their defence equipments,Civil and military technology.

We have the worst history of failurw in Indigenous weapons capabilities.Whole world laugh at our face.Including our own people laugh at ADA,DRDO ,HAL and othe defence PSUs when ever they say that This product will be inducted in 5 years or what ever the time they mention. Its a shame how can this Great Indian Human Race succeed abroad and in Private Firms in india but cant produce a RIFILE ,Tanks,Fighter jets and other normal essential Weapons required to save this nation from security threats.Now some of fools reading this will counter a question "Kid producing indigenous AC is not easy DEAL' I Agree but are DRDO ,ADA ,Ordinance factory, HAL etc not ASHAMED to say this...? For what taxpayers money been paid them for ? Since a normal poor indian cant produce a high tec weapon these defence PSUs are created and recuited on basis on their talent to produce these things... THEY MUST PRODUCE INDIGENOUS WEAPONS...Thats their primary objective.

Lets come to our 30 year old legacy. TEJAS. Today every deal is a scam.Its true no bitching.The same core group selected Agusta choppers which was denied as too costly by PRESIDENT of UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ,Clinged the Rafale deal .How can this deal been clean and honest.That too rafale was rejected during field trails by INDIAN AIRFORCE and EF typoon came up as a leader.IAF expressed its intrest on EF typoon.Later rafale was brought back our defence minister and later won the deal.Am not saying rafale is a bad choice what am saying wat if ef was our better choice ? What ever we all agree to disagree on MMRCA. Now how can one belive this was a fair deal with no kick backs ? If there was a kick back for 20 Bil$ deal the kick back amount is very huge.If a dassault paid this huge bribe to get this deal its obvious the price the offer to us will be manuplated and ll be high . Ofcourse it will be.After all Rafale is not for charity . So this deal is not and will not be fair.Am affraid it ll even move ahead.Now the price quoted by rafale is less so it was our winner but the tricky part is this quated price is not the life cycle cost ? Rafale was lowest bidder against EF typoon 's Price and life cycle cost .. This is the problem for not signing this deal yet.Our Mr.Perfect Antony Ji said negotiations are going on to make rafale accept this bidding price as inclucive of life cycle cost. Thats why my friend we got news that MMRCA deal will cost more than what we thought.this is not bitching we all knew about it. MAKE SENSE ? Dont know this deal will go through or not...

What if we scraped mmrca deal.Its a possible many times came close to it recently and in the past. Now because of these anti national politicians Kick backs and bribe now our countries security is at STAKE.We already 7 squadrens less.Pakistan getteinf new and upgraded f16s,j17,j11b and j10 is also on card for pakistan,on eastern front its CHINA.I really wonder how our politicians takes china so easily when USA-sole super power is affraid off,the whole South China sea nieghbours getting togher (ganging up) to take this chinese might but INDIA takes it as ALL IS WELL. China wont attack india .As if China is our bab. Senseless and poor fore sight of our defence personal will be felt when whole lots of missile and bombs rains from our skies.But these BABUS and Netas will flee to other western nation where they will live like a BILLINIORS... Sometime i thought this might be the reason the steal too much. So what can we do for our IAF? Only remedi is Scrap this deal first. Lets have this mother of all deal money 20 billion dollars for mmrca ,chopper deal some 6 bils$ or more, i mean india to spend nearly 100 bilion on weapons. Just think wat if this huge money Invested in our INDIGENOUS PROGRAMS. Insteed of rafale we can produce our own Medium class tejas with two engines.We can buy engines and other system for now and assemble it in our 2 engined config MCA tejas. CANT we do it? We will produce our own MCH , medium wieght Dhruv helli.
We always critic China for coping but do u all remember when our PM Mr.Singh on rare occation opened his mouth and said to our defence PSUs like drdo,ada hal etc that "BEG,STEAL or BUY" ? But is so funny and shamefull that we cant even do that? We had To for t 90, sukoi 30 mki but do u know the production rate and quality of the machine we produce is not the quality of the russian's . And w still cant produce su 30 mki at the rate which we have to ? Hal is so casual about it so has our babus and netas.Now is that mean we dont have ability to even "BEG STEAL"?

What shall we do know ? :We need accountability black and white from defence PSUs.The head of the project should be held and stripped from his position and all gonerment benifits should be stoped for not meeting the dead line or indulge in corruption or lobbied by forign weapon vendors to delay the indigenous projects.I strongly belive it will have greater impact on our projects and paythe way for indigenous weapons.
We need to bring in Private players and use the model of USA and RUSSIA where 2 to 3 companied like HAL will compete with each other.Today hal makes some jokes like basic trainer will be ready by 2015 ...now we all should notice is that due to this delay of this WW2 design trainer with tuboprop fan ...We had to buy swedish trainer for double or triple the cost.Is it a co insident ? Or IS IT A ORGANISED CRIME? All project meet this same fate and we end up exporting.If are are exporting its fine .But why do we waste our money pay hal cheif and drdo and othe PSUs ?Just think about the money spent till now and what was the result? NOTHING

Our Army recently expressed is dissatisfaction on ARJUN MK2... our army should be told that u must live with it.As russians and usa had to at their early years...What ever they got they mass produced it and later IMPROVED it.If we keep importing where are to taking our future ? What is the use at the time of war when exported country ban INDIA or sanctioned us ?

Now just think about the following BELOW.: tell ur comment on it Like how u felt and how u feel :

Year 2014.War escalated between india and Pakistan .China enters the war .USA ,russia and kept out of conflict .As nuclear war may break out and they call for peace in the region. Prime Minister Mr.Modi order for War time projects INCLUDING MCA tejas .Not cheep like tekas mk1 but cost arround 80 mil $.With more power full Specs.To mass Produce.To prepare for full blown WW3.

MCA Tejas

Project started 2014
First Flight: 2015 december
Induction 2016 ~2017 on war time basis.
Thanks for DRDO ADA .

Specs:
India copied specs from best delta wing fighters fron Ef and Rafale

Crew: 1 or 2
Length: 52ft 9in
Wingspan: 35ft 11in
Max Takeoff weight: 51,809Ibs
Powerplant: 2× Eurojet EJ200 afterburning turbofans, 20,250Ibs
Max Speed: Mach 2+
Max Supercruise Speed: Mach 1.5
Range (without tanks): 864 miles
Service Ceiling: 65,000ft

Mass produced and later exported to its ally. Now India forms its own alliance.Takes potions as the leader of the group.

Year 2020 India test flown its Pak Fa with russian help and also AMCA ... With these technology India to upgrade its MMRCA tejas into 5 th gen Features. Now world's Chepst 5 th gen Fighter is born...

HOW WAS IT TO READ? May be very ambitious but WHY ITS NOT POSSIBLE ?

Long live this great nation.May our mother HINDUSTAN reclaim its Super Power Again
By-Hareesh Kumar (MARINER HK)
..JAI HIND

 

[Mariner HK]

Re: Super power ambition and Indigeous Weapons projects of INDIA

Many indigenous projects detail to be followed

 

[Payeng]

Re: Super power ambition and Indigeous Weapons projects of INDIA

Super Power ambition is for the jingos not national ambition.
MMRCA Rafale is Air Force requirement again not a requirement for a national ambition we have the AMCA for that but we cant risk airforce preparedness for that.

 

[A chauhan]

Legacy of 30 years Tejas? This sentence alone forces me to not comment on this thread.

 

[Jagdish]

This pic says it all

 

[Mariner HK]

Legacy of 30 years Tejas? This sentence alone forces me to not comment on this thread.

its been 30 years now.. it will be 31 years when we get tejas mk1.. hopefuly

 

[A chauhan]

its been 30 years now.. it will be 31 years when we get tejas mk1.. hopefuly

Phase-1 commenced in 1990, full scale funding in 1993 then how can you call it a 30 year old legacy ?

 

[Mariner HK]

Phase-1 commenced in 1990, full scale funding in 1993 then how can you call it a 30 year old legacy ?

keep it real man.This is indian thread.so we should open up.If it was pakistanis or other nation's forum my answer will be totally diffrent... So let me point out the following.Plz have open mind

the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme, which began in the 1980s to replace India's ageing MiG-21 fighters. Later, the LCA was officially named "Tejas",meaning "Radiance" by then Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee.BUT The IAF's Air Staff Requirement for the LCA were not finalised until October 1985.Only in 1990 The LCA design was finalised(This itself a huge delay )it took 10 years to finalise its config as a small tail-less delta winged machine with relaxed static stability (RSS) to enhance manoeuvrability performance.

Phase 1 commenced in 1990 and HAL started work on the technology demonstrators in mid-1991; however, a financial crunch resulted in full-scale funding not being authorised until April 1993,(DELAYED by great politicians of INDIA)

TD-1, was rolled out on 17 November 1995 and was followed by TD-2 in 1998, but they were kept grounded for several years due to structural concerns and trouble with the development of the flight control system.Its a DELAY by ADA and DRDO.

British Aerospace (BAe) and Lockheed Martin were brought in to help in 1993, but the effort required for the Aeronautical Development Establishment to code the control laws into the FCS software proved a much larger job than originally anticipated. (Lack of planning and lack of ForeSight .Who is to be blamed? )

the MMR program and the radar development effort began in 1997.The DRDO's Centre for Airborne System (CABS) is responsible for running the test programme for the MMR. Between 1996 and 1997. from 1996 to mid 2002 (Which is a delay already)By mid-2002, development of the MMR was reported to be experiencing major delays and cost escalations. By early 2005 only the air-to-air look-up and look-down modes — two very basic modes — were confirmed to have been successfully tested. In May 2006 it was revealed that the performance of several modes being tested still "fell short of expectations. ? Now just look at the time here 1996 to 2006 what do u call it ? DELAY of 10 more years.What in the world ADA and DRDO doing for 10 yrs and finally saying its a failure after earning lots of high payment salary ... ?Can any one run a private company in this rate of efficiency ? LL the chief of DRDO ADA allow it to happen ? NOOO. Government never took a call on it ..


Now here it come the greatest EPIC failure by DRDO Initially, it was decided to equip the prototype aircraft with the General Electric F404-GE-F2J3 afterburning turbofan engine. Simultaneously, in 1986, a parallel programme to develop an indigenous powerplant was also launched. Led by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment, the GTRE GTX-35VS, named "Kaveri",

Development snags with the Kaveri resulted in the 2003 (1986 -2003 What its called ? DELAY Sure GE must had bribed to delay our engine program .KICK BACKS. After this unacceptable delay in the 2003 decision to procure the uprated F404-GE-IN20 engine for the eight pre-production LSP aircraft and two naval prototypes. General Electric was awarded a US$105 million contract in 2004 for development engineering and production of 17 -IN20 engines,

In 2007, an additional 24 F404-IN20 afterburning engines were ordered to power the first operational squadron of Tejas fighters Dont u think its a scam ? 1986- 2007 no result on Our Kaveri Engine.It was kept in cold storage with lots of fund flowing in...WR IS THE MONEY USED FOR ? Dint our defence minister noticed this is huge delay and loss ?

In 2008, it was announced that the Kaveri would not be ready in time for the Tejas, and that an in-production powerplant would have to be selected[25] in the 95 to 100 kilonewton (kN) GE Aviation was declared as the lowest bidder. The deal will cover purchase of 99 GE F414 engines. ? END of Kaveri and huge tax payer's money wasted and no accountability at all ? WHAT THE HECK ?

The Tejas has completed 1,828 test flights by 16 April 2012.The Naval LCA made its first flight, almost two years after being rolled out, on 27 April 2012.Now ADA confident that tejas program will be over in 2015 ? After we bought 270+ Sukoi 30 mki , Now mmrca rafale ? Now this is calle 1980 - 2015 legacy of TEJAS ... 35 years for a Light combat Aircraft . It must be a record by ADA and DRDO. Fighters must had retiered by now

 

[Mariner HK]

Legacy of 30 years Tejas? This sentence alone forces me to not comment on this thread.

While u support and plays DEVIL'S ADVOCATE for drdo and ADA read this its latest EPIC FAIL !!! Once Again

Delay in Manufacturing of Tejas by DRDO
Published March 20, 2013 | By admin

SOURCE: PIB PR


It is a fact that there has been some delay in completion of project "Development of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Tejas". The aircraft is being manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).The project `Development of LCA` was sanctioned in August 1983. Project Definition Phase (PDP) of LCA was completed in 1988. In 1990, a decision was taken to undertake LCA development in two phases. In the first phase to build 02 Technology Demonstrators (TDs) along with development of critical technologies including Multi Mode Radar (MMR) and in the second phase to build Prototype Vehicles, integrate weapons, sensors, and flight testing leading to Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) and Final Operational Clearance (FOC).



Details of Phase-I and Phase-II of LCA development is given below:-

Full Scale Engineering Development (FSED) Phase-I of LCA

Date of Sanction : June 1993

Original Date of Completion : June 1998

Actual Date of Completion : March 2004

Overall objectives of Phase-I was achieved with completion of 202 flight tests (123 hrs : 49 min) on 03 LCAs).

Full Scale Engineering Development (FSED) Phase-II of LCA

Date of Sanction : November 2001

Original Date of Completion : December 2008

Revised Date of Completion : March 2015

Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) was achieved in January 2011 and Full Operational Clearance is likely to be achieved in December 2014.

The LCA project, which though got delayed initially, is currently progressing on a fast track and is working on aggressive time schedules.

Productionisation of LCA is already going on. First series production aircraft is likely to be ready by the end of 2013. Indian Air Force has already placed order for 20 LCA in IOC configuration and another of 20 LCA in FOC configuration.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Motilal Vorain Rajya Sabha today.​

Why no one held responsible for putting india's security and life of mig 21 and mig series pilot's life at risk?Its worst than terrorism ....

 

[A chauhan]

@Mariner HK
Well I appreciate your view mate, but the fact I was quoting was that IAF finalized the ASR in 1990, Phase-1 commenced in 1990, full scale funding in 1993 and it will hopefully achieve FOC by 2014-2015 (even after sanctions by foreign countries) which counts 25 years not 30 years. As far as the delay of first ten years is concerned how can we blame DRDO for the delay caused by IAF ? If IAF would have wished it could have expressed the need of MMRCA or double engine Tejas in 1990 which you mentioned in the OP, and that too could have been realized as of now. But sadly we blame DRDO for the delay caused by IAF which kept rising the requirement even after finalizing the ASR in 1990. Though criticism is necessary to keep govt. organizations in check and in pace but too much of criticism brings down the morale of our scientists. But I think now finally DRDO has gained speed in this project.

 

[roma]

Phase-1 commenced in 1990, full scale funding in 1993 then how can you call it a 30 year old legacy ?

the chinnis ( as some call them ) would have had less ambitious specifications and would have announced to the world that they completed the project in record time.!

the APPARENT problem regarding super-long time frame is POLITICAL in nature one rather than of capability - i.e lack of continuity in funding and the successive govt throwing the project to the back burner and giving lower priority ...plus the continual shifting of the goal-posts regarding higher specifications each time !

what india seriously need is a white-heat serious look at the lack of political continuity and support which always and invariably is the chief obstacle in all our developments programs whether military or indeed civilian.

one possible "skeleton-idea" of a solution is to have an apolitical project management team which remains the same regardless of the election results - that way the project experiences the continuity it deserves regardless of who gets to parliament