Indian Ballistic Missile Defense System

[EnlightenedMonk]

http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/jun/28radar.htm

this is the old article above

either way we don't need it anymore since we have Phalcon AWAC

Yep, true. Thanks for the information dude...

 

[screwterrorists]

I had read we had acquired the Green Pine as well.
Regarding the Phalcon, I dont think Phalcon is going to be enough. India's border is huge and there is no way Phalcons alone will cover it. Even if a follow up order for more Phalcons is placed and the DRDO somehow introduces its AWACS really quick, we will need dedicated radar systems.

Anyways, congrats to DRDO.

 

[EnlightenedMonk]

I had read we had acquired the Green Pine as well.
Regarding the Phalcon, I dont think Phalcon is going to be enough. India's border is huge and there is no way Phalcons alone will cover it. Even if a follow up order for more Phalcons is placed and the DRDO somehow introduces its AWACS really quick, we will need dedicated radar systems.

Anyways, congrats to DRDO.

To be more specific, we need more ground based radars. I read somewhere that India has acquired some 20 ground based radars at 5 million dollars a piece.

Will try and find the link and post it here...

 

[LETHALFORCE]

I had read we had acquired the Green Pine as well.
Regarding the Phalcon, I dont think Phalcon is going to be enough. India's border is huge and there is no way Phalcons alone will cover it. Even if a follow up order for more Phalcons is placed and the DRDO somehow introduces its AWACS really quick, we will need dedicated radar systems.

Anyways, congrats to DRDO.

Sorry about the error greenpine is acquired, ARROW is the one being held up.

 

[Singh]

Sorry about the error greenpine is acquired, ARROW is the one being held up.

IIRC Indian govt. has scrapped plans to purchase Arrow, instead it instituted the IBMDP which resulted in PAD-AAD.

 

[Singh]

To be more specific, we need more ground based radars. I read somewhere that India has acquired some 20 ground based radars at 5 million dollars a piece.

Will try and find the link and post it here...

already being discussed here http://defenceforum.in/forum/showthread.php?t=118

 

[EnlightenedMonk]

already being discussed here http://defenceforum.in/forum/showthread.php?t=118

Thanks dude....

 

[nitesh]

Good read:

Politics of Missile Defence

 

[EnlightenedMonk]

Good read:

Politics of Missile Defence

A good read most certainly, but I dare say it quotes the obvious.

That the Leftists don't know what's necessarily good for the country. They'll intrinsically oppose anything that involves America.

And, also that the Congress despite opposing the deal with America when it was in opposition decided to pursue something similar when it was in power, but only backed out because Karat & Co threatened to pull the rug from under their feet... A bunch of hypocrites (like all politicans)

And that its always not necessarily good to develop everything indigenously and that sometimes off-the-shelf components which are being offered might actually do the job for less or actually act as a credible stop-gap measure till the real indigenous system comes in

 

[nitesh]

Gokul, your point is correct, but seeing the recent fiasco created by US on end user verification leaves the government officials skeptical about US intentions about providing the weapons and not interfering with there deployment and usage.

 

[nitesh]

Guys Green pine were sold to India but then it is heavily modified and re named as LRTR which is used in BMD system.

 

[EnlightenedMonk]

Gokul, your point is correct, but seeing the recent fiasco created by US on end user verification leaves the government officials skeptical about US intentions about providing the weapons and not interfering with there deployment and usage.

But, that might have only minimal implications in case of a system such as a missile defence system. It will have more implications in case of other systems such as aircraft etc.

What exactly does the end user verification say anyway? Does it say that I can't use the things I purchased??

 

[nitesh]

But, that might have only minimal implications in case of a system such as a missile defence system. It will have more implications in case of other systems such as aircraft etc.

! how?

What exactly does the end user verification say anyway? Does it say that I can't use the things I purchased??

Google please use Google

 

[EnlightenedMonk]

Google please use Google

I too have seen what the news reports say... It is not about that. The news reports dont say what the bones of contention are...

Do you have text or any part of the text of the end user agreement either with India or with any other country so that we may get an idea?

 

[nitesh]

I too have seen what the news reports say... It is not about that. The news reports dont say what the bones of contention are...

Do you have text or any part of the text of the end user agreement either with India or with any other country so that we may get an idea?

When you know what are the parts where the problem are then you should understand what is "End user Verification" is right?

 

[EnlightenedMonk]

When you know what are the parts where the problem are then you should understand what is "End user Verification" is right?

Are you trying to say that nobody knows what this "End User Verification" business is? Anyways, it is a legal document. And, legal documents have many clauses which are subject to multiple interpretation.

I suppose Israel has also had to sign an End User Verification or something similar to make sure that the weapons are not re-exported to anybody else. What exactly do you find wrong with that?

And, its not like signing a document like that restricted Israel's ability to use the weapons that he wanted to where he wanted to.

I agree that the cases between India and Israel are different, but I doubt whether the Americans would want to screw themselves by imposing untenable conditions in the agreement ???

 

[nitesh]

Are you trying to say that nobody knows what this "End User Verification" business is? Anyways, it is a legal document. And, legal documents have many clauses which are subject to multiple interpretation.

I suppose Israel has also had to sign an End User Verification or something similar to make sure that the weapons are not re-exported to anybody else. What exactly do you find wrong with that?

And, its not like signing a document like that restricted Israel's ability to use the weapons that he wanted to where he wanted to.

I agree that the cases between India and Israel are different, but I doubt whether the Americans would want to screw themselves by imposing untenable conditions in the agreement ???

I never said that no body knows what does it mean meanwhile have a look in to this article:
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=3938397

 

[EnlightenedMonk]

I never said that no body knows what does it mean meanwhile have a look in to this article:
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=3938397

Look, from this article, it only seems, as I had earlier suspected, that the potential trouble is with the resale of the system which India has been doing in the past. The monitoring agreements are a little flexible (both according to the US and according to past experience)

So, getting an off-the shelf Arrow or Patriot system as a stop gap measure should not be a problem for us, because I don't think the Government is stupid enough to export things like these to other countries. Of course, we have exported other aircraft earlier, but I doubt they'd want to sell Arrow to a third party. We're neither that stupid, nor that unethical.

This, again, as I had mentioned earlier clearly has an effect on our other activities such as selling second-hand jets and hence aircraft from USA would become a problem. Not a missile defence system because we'd not be stupid enough to re-export it or any of its components.

I do support indigenous, but we should have a stop-gap arrangement, which we don't have right now, and that is what I'm worried about.

 

[nitesh]

Look, from this article, it only seems, as I had earlier suspected, that the potential trouble is with the resale of the system which India has been doing in the past. The monitoring agreements are a little flexible (both according to the US and according to past experience)

So, getting an off-the shelf Arrow or Patriot system as a stop gap measure should not be a problem for us, because I don't think the Government is stupid enough to export things like these to other countries. Of course, we have exported other aircraft earlier, but I doubt they'd want to sell Arrow to a third party. We're neither that stupid, nor that unethical.

This, again, as I had mentioned earlier clearly has an effect on our other activities such as selling second-hand jets and hence aircraft from USA would become a problem. Not a missile defence system because we'd not be stupid enough to re-export it or any of its components.

I do support indigenous, but we should have a stop-gap arrangement, which we don't have right now, and that is what I'm worried about.

http://thehindu.com/thehindu/2003/09/08/stories/2003090805451100.htm
http://www.armscontrolcenter.org/policy/missiledefense/articles/arrow_missile_india/

 

[EnlightenedMonk]

http://thehindu.com/thehindu/2003/09/08/stories/2003090805451100.htm
http://www.armscontrolcenter.org/policy/missiledefense/articles/arrow_missile_india/

Hmmm... The first Hindu report is almost 6 years old. But, the second report did shed some light on the issue. Thanks for that.

Okay. So the US won't exactly give us that technology. But, we have other avenues like Russian systems which are still open to us. Why not use that then?

And, correct me if I'm wrong... wasn't the US willing to offer us the Patriot system?