Indian Army Tata Kestrel 8x8 Wheeled Armoured Personnel Carrier

[ezsasa]

Strykers are not amphibious. Strykers do not work in a desert environment at all.

The Humvee is nowhere close to an APC.

Why even include these two platforms to be considered?

As long as the engines are Indian made, and the platform is Indian made, there should be no problem if the subsystems or the entire turret is imported.

Maybe to avoid a single vendor situation.

The question we should be asking is , where is L&T APC?

 

[Bhadra]

Strykers are not amphibious. Strykers do not work in a desert environment at all.

The Humvee is nowhere close to an APC.

Why even include these two platforms to be considered?

As long as the engines are Indian made, and the platform is Indian made, there should be no problem if the subsystems or the entire turret is imported.

Lahul Vila Kuwat... what are you saying...

Strykers have been extensively used in Iraq... though you have a point that WHAP are essentially designed to be road-bound... cross country mobility is a little problem..

It is your second point about the internal and external systems which is more important and not the Dabba with eight wheels.. That where the Stryker would have a 100 times edge over this TATA dabba..

And yes.it is not amphibious but USMC is equipped with a lot of Stryers... USMC hasa lots of air assets too..

 

[Ajax01]

Atleast let the strykers have at least one fourth of the test that WHAP had to undergo.
Lol probably Import Army will get a trial on the factory dirt track and then be done. We would be better off with Imported Jernails than Imported Equipment.

 

[Sridhar_TN]

Lahul Vila Kuwat... what are you saying...

Strykers have been extensively used in Iraq... though you have a point that WHAP are essentially designed to be road-bound... cross country mobility is a little problem..

It is your second point about the internal and external systems which is more important and not the Dabba with eight wheels.. That where the Stryker would have a 100 times edge over this TATA dabba..

And yes.it is not amphibious but USMC is equipped with a lot of Stryers... USMC hasa lots of air assets too..

Har har Mahadev
There are numerous complaints repeatedly pointing out the Stryker has piss poor perfomance in a desert terrain. Meaning a terrain Fulll of soft sand or red sand. I’m talking about pure desert with sand dunes. Only humvees operate in that environment in iraq. Not a single Stryker will operate out in the desert dunes. It bounces back and forth and cannot sustain even a slow speed apparently in the dunes. The british Jackal ACP is daylights better in that respect. The Stryker truly is a wonderful platform otherwise for mountaineous trrrain and urban warfare. Extremely modular too.

Now, coming to the WHAP. The subsystems are the least important part of a logistics supply chain. To keep the fleet going, all your platform spares and engine components need to be readily available. Which is the issue faced by the Arjun tank. Are you really going to be dead in the road because of turret issues and subsystems or chassis, engine, transmission issues? Most susbsystems even in the Arjun and Tseries tanks in the Indian army is imported from Israel anyways. Same will go for WHAP.

If the platform is good enough and the IA is satisfied with reliability and quality, TATA should be the way to go.

 

[Sridhar_TN]

Lahul Vila Kuwat... what are you saying...

Strykers have been extensively used in Iraq... though you have a point that WHAP are essentially designed to be road-bound... cross country mobility is a little problem..

It is your second point about the internal and external systems which is more important and not the Dabba with eight wheels.. That where the Stryker would have a 100 times edge over this TATA dabba..

And yes.it is not amphibious but USMC is equipped with a lot of Stryers... USMC hasa lots of air assets too..

I would not call it a TATA ka dabba. You have no idea of what’s it’s capable of. Why such hate towards Indian products mate? Remember the pneumatic suspension made for the Arjun tank is indian? Superb suspension.

Let me give you a small story. There’s a wonderful company called TONBO imaging in Bangalore. The awesome army acquisitions team had no clue they existed even though TONBO had apparently reached out numerous times to them.
IA spec ops happened to train with US SF who pointed out to them The TONBO products being used by them. That is when our awesome acquisition team paid attention to TONBO. There are numerous small scale entities like this that could provide extremely capable systems and subsystems for the Defence forces needs. The issue is there exists no mindset with the Defence forces to identify , encourage and show interest in ‘potential’ game changing technologies inside the country. With a talent pool of engineers who lead some of the best projects for machine learning, AI, drone technologies, cyber security, Chip design in the US, we do not know how to utilize a homegrown system, or adapt it for our needs.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Then you are saying they might choose the Stryker Armoured vehicles ?

Yes if TATA krestel performed flawlessly then why they even want to start this competition? For kickbacks they can choose anything

 

[Bhadra]

Mrichakatikam Momemts of Indian Army
​

One must have heard the famous Mrichkatikam story of Mudrarakshasha where in a son of a king insists on a toy that son of picture makers is playing with in the streets of city.

Indian Army seems to be suffering from it at this moment of crisis and is venturing hauntingly into the procurement of Light tanks and WHAP after seeing the Chinese 6 Highland Mechanised Infantry Division and 4 Highland Motorised Infantry Division light tanks and their wheeled APC...

That reflects very poorly on Indian Intelligence capabilities or Indian Armies capabilities to absorb intelligence inputs and deal with changes in adversaries equipment profile..

Chinese built into Galwan Valley, Hot springs, Gogra and Penang Tso with the troops of 4 Highland Motorised Infantry Division which is equipped with many wheeled 6X6 and 8X8 WHAP.

WHAPS as also Light Tanks do exist in the plan of things of Indian Army but is this the time to procure those in a hurry ? Or is someone making the best of opportunity to add secondary assets.. or Indian Army jas fallen to Mrichakatikam Moments..

Is Indian Army arming without aiming ??

WHAP needs prepared roads, Are those existing in intended areas of operations.. WHAP are not difficult cross country platforms.... will WHAP move in 12 feet of snow n snow soaked slushes and bogs??

 

[Sridhar_TN]

Mrichakatikam Momemts of Indian Army
​

One must have heard the famous Mrichkatikam story of Mudrarakshasha where in a son of a king insisted on a toy that son of picture makers is playing with in the streets of city.

Indian Army seems to be suffering from it at this moment of crisis and is venturing hauntingly into the procurement of Light tanks and WHAP after seeing the Chinese 6 Highland Mechanised Infantry Division and 4 Highland Motorised Infantry Division light tanks and their wheeled APC...

That reflects very poorly on Indian Intelligence capabilities or Indian Armies capabilities to absorb intelligence inputs and deal with changes in adversaries equipment profile..

Chinese built into Galwan Valley, Hot springs, Gogra and Penang Tso with the troops of 4 Highland Motorised Infantry Division which is equipped with many wheeled 6X6 and 8X8 WHAP.

WHAPS as also Light Tanks do exist in the plan of things of Indian Army but is this the time to procure those in a hurry ? Or is someone making the best of opportunity to add secondary assets.. or Indian Army jas fallen to Mrichakatikam Moments..

Is Indian Army arming without aiming ??

WHAP needs prepared roads, Are those existing in intended areas of operations.. WHAP are not difficult cross country platforms.... will WHAP move in 12 feet of snow n snow soaked slushes and bogs??

Strykers or humvees won’t move well in 12 feet of snow either.

The solution to that would be then a platform like the BMP2 or, a platform like the VAJRA that is readily available.

 

[Bhadra]

I would not call it a TATA ka dabba. You have no idea of what’s it’s capable of. Why such hate towards Indian products mate? Remember the pneumatic suspension made for the Arjun tank is indian? Superb suspension.

Let me give you a small story. There’s a wonderful company called TONBO imaging in Bangalore. The awesome army acquisitions team had no clue they existed even though TONBO had apparently reached out numerous times to them.
IA spec ops happened to train with US SF who pointed out to them The TONBO products being used by them. That is when our awesome acquisition team paid attention to TONBO. There are numerous small scale entities like this that could provide extremely capable systems and subsystems for the Defence forces needs. The issue is there exists no mindset with the Defence forces to identify , encourage and show interest in ‘potential’ game changing technologies inside the country. With a talent pool of engineers who lead some of the best projects for machine learning, AI, drone technologies, cyber security, Chip design in the US, we do not know how to utilize a homegrown system, or adapt it for our needs.

Jai Shri Ram...

And then TATA ka Dabba with that Tonbo and out of the world Indian technologies fitted inside have to match Stryker capabilities and price...
Match it and take it..

Strykers come in tens of configurations including fitted with 105mm Turret mounted gun... and TOW missile launchers..

And there is no famous "economy of scale" there as the maximum quantity required would be 150... Stykers can be supplied immediately out of US stocks which exist in more than 5000.
There is no provision for rejecting L1 under Indian Financial regulations..

 

[Sridhar_TN]

Jai Shri Ram...

And then TATA ka Dabba with that Tonbo and out of the world Indian technologies fitted inside have to match Stryker capabilities and price...
Match it and take it..

Strykers come in tens of configurations including fitted with 105mm Turret mounted gun... and TOW missile launchers..

And there is no famous "economy of scale" there as the maximum quantity required would be 150... Stykers can be supplied immediately out of US stocks which exist in more than 5000.
There is no provision for rejecting L1 under Indian Financial regulations..

Right. And when relations between the two countries sour, we can beautifully park the strykers in Their comfy deep storage due to unavailability of spares. Win win scenario. Yay!!

Understanding the need for attack helos, heavy lift transport and even fighter/attack jets. But for APC’s and troop transports, if we still want the best of the best Of the best of the best, then IA will always be = Import Army, not Indian Army.

 

[another_armchair]

I would not call it a TATA ka dabba. You have no idea of what’s it’s capable of. Why such hate towards Indian products mate? Remember the pneumatic suspension made for the Arjun tank is indian? Superb suspension.

Let me give you a small story. There’s a wonderful company called TONBO imaging in Bangalore. The awesome army acquisitions team had no clue they existed even though TONBO had apparently reached out numerous times to them.
IA spec ops happened to train with US SF who pointed out to them The TONBO products being used by them. That is when our awesome acquisition team paid attention to TONBO. There are numerous small scale entities like this that could provide extremely capable systems and subsystems for the Defence forces needs. The issue is there exists no mindset with the Defence forces to identify , encourage and show interest in ‘potential’ game changing technologies inside the country. With a talent pool of engineers who lead some of the best projects for machine learning, AI, drone technologies, cyber security, Chip design in the US, we do not know how to utilize a homegrown system, or adapt it for our needs.

That problem plagues Indian Army the most.

IN evolved decades ago. IAF is playing catch up. IA is still in shavasana.

 

[Bhadra]

Strykers or humvees won’t move well in 12 feet of snow either.

The solution to that would be then a platform like the BMP2 or, a platform like the VAJRA that is readily available.

That is why Indian Army had concluded long back that they need only tracked vehicles for Indian terrain...
WHAP are required for -
UN Missions
MOUT
Air transportation
Maybe amphibious operations ..

At this moment of crisis WHAPS even in Depsang do not compare well with tracked BMP2.

 

[fire starter]

Jai Shri Ram...

And then TATA ka Dabba with that Tonbo and out of the world Indian technologies fitted inside have to match Stryker capabilities and price...
Match it and take it..

Strykers come in tens of configurations including fitted with 105mm Turret mounted gun... and TOW missile launchers..

And there is no famous "economy of scale" there as the maximum quantity required would be 150... Stykers can be supplied immediately out of US stocks which exist in more than 5000.
There is no provision for rejecting L1 under Indian Financial regulations..

 

[AmitG]

What should I say...

Those are requirements of DPP and financial rules of GoI which are framed by CAG of India that single vendor purchases will not be carried out. There has to be competitive bidding and many proposals have to be examined and compared..
All Financial transaction of Goi has to be carried out according to Finacial Rules and MoD is not any exception..
Why badmouth MoD on that issue which is not their making... How will MoD reach on a fair price? Is TATA Dodh Ka Nahya that they will not quote exorbitant price. That way we will revert back to the "Ambassador" era.

The Child is still in father's mind and mothers desire and people have started lobbying on unprincipled grounds..

Wasn’t there a provision included recently that allowed single vendor situations if the product was local? I am pretty sure I read something of that sort. As far as the Stryker goes even the US army is looking for a new platform. Not to say that the Stryker is not a good platform. India cannot afford to keep on buying foreign stuff. We will never be able to really compete with China if we do not develop our own platforms and purchase them in numbers. Numbers have a quality of their own.

 

[patriots]

 

[WolfPack86]

Indian Army To Acquire New Armoured Vehicles For Ladakh; Tata Competes Against US’ Stryker and Humvee
The Indian Army is looking to choose from three different vehicles including the indigenous Tata Wheeled Armoured Protection along with American Stryker Infantry Combat Vehicle and Humvee to provide highly mobile armoured protection vehicles to its soldiers in high altitude terrains like Eastern Ladakh.

The Indian Army has a need for armoured infantry combat vehicles for quick movement of troops in the Eastern Ladakh area where the Chinese have deployed their armoured personnel carriers in large numbers. The force is looking at the three options which include the Tata WhAP and the American Stryker and Humvee, defence sources told ANI.

The options are being evaluated by the force at the moment and a decision in this regard would be taken soon, they said. Sources said during the evaluation process, the indigenous platform would certainly have preference over the foreign products in meeting the requirements of the Army.


Tata WhAP, which has been co-developed with a DRDO laboratory, has undergone several trials in recent times including high altitude tests. However, it has still not entered service and its American counterparts Humvee and Stryker have been part of the American defence forces for decades.


The Strykers and Humvee are reportedly capable of being dropped from transport aircraft including the C-130J and the C-17s which are also operated by the Indian Air Force. Vehicles that can be air-dropped are always a benefit since it is impossible to drive them through the treacherous terrain of the Himalayan mountains.


Presently, the Indian Army uses a large number of Russian-origin BMP infantry combat vehicles, which are used by the Mechanised Infantry regiments of the Indian Army in deserts, plains, and high altitude locations.


Since the Sino-India standoff at Ladakh is being tipped to extend into winters, the armies of both countries are bolstering their defensive capabilities and procuring new military equipment. Although the violence has ended, tensions between New Delhi and Beijing remain high as ever.

Indian Army To Acquire New Armoured Vehicles For Ladakh; Tata Competes Against US' Stryker and Humvee

The Indian army has a requirement for armoured vehicles since the Sino-India standoff at Ladakh is being to drag onto the winter. TATA, American Stryker and Humvee are amongst the contenders but under the 'aatmanirbhar bharat mission', the deal could likely go to TATA.

eurasiantimes.com

 

[Assassin 2.0]

 

[WolfPack86]

DRDO"s WhAP vs AMERICAN StryKER | Army to choose from Tata, American Stryker and Humvee for APC

 

[WolfPack86]

Indian Army Considering TATA WhAP Armoured Vehicle For Eastern Ladakh
The Indian Army is currently looking for an armoured vehicle to be used in high altitude areas like Eastern Ladakh. For this, it has shortlisted three vehicles, including an indigenous vehicle. According to IANS report, the army is currently considering TATA Wheeled Armoured Protection (WhAP) vehicle along with Humvee and America Stryker Infantry Combat vehicle. The vehicle is reportedly required for quick movement of troops in Eastern Ladakh area where the Chinese army is already using several armoured vehicles for its troops.



It is being reported that the indigenous TATA WhAP has higher chances of being commissioned as compared to the other two vehicles. TATA WhAP has been co-developed with a DRDO (Defence Research and Development Organisation) laboratory and has been rigorously tested to perform in extreme conditions, including high altitude areas. It is based on TATA Defence Combat Wheeled Armoured Amphibious Platform and gets Amphibious Drive Mode as well as independent suspension with hydro-pneumatic struts. TATA WhAP can carry around 10 to 12 personnel and be used as a reconnaissance vehicle, infantry carrier, or logistics carrier.

However, the vehicle has never been in service before. The Humvee and American Stryker armoured vehicles, on the other hand, have served extensively in the US defence forces. So, it needs to be seen if the Indian army will go for WhAP as opposed to the other armoured vehicles.



In case you didn't know, TATA Motors has had a long association with the armed forces and has supplied several armoured and combat vehicles. The Indian army is currently using especially made Safari Storme as patrolling vehicle in many parts of the country.

Indian Army Considering TATA WhAP Armoured Vehicle For Eastern Ladakh

TATA WhAP has been co-developed with a DRDO laboratory and has been rigorously tested to perform in extreme conditions, including high...

www.indiandefensenews.in

 

[Bhadra]

Right. And when relations between the two countries sour, we can beautifully park the strykers in Their comfy deep storage due to unavailability of spares. Win win scenario. Yay!!

Understanding the need for attack helos, heavy lift transport and even fighter/attack jets. But for APC’s and troop transports, if we still want the best of the best Of the best of the best, then IA will always be = Import Army, not Indian Army.

That is a poor statement on Indian industrial capacity and capabilities rather than Indian Army.

Our 100 years of investment in OFB factories, PSUs , DPSUS and 90 DODO labs was social justice and positive action activities that can not even produce foreign rifle parts.

When it comes to Vehicle technology TATA Motors is a B grade company where investors also do not like to park the money but it is OK for the Indian Army to park the lives of the soldiers with third-class products. TATA Motors is the biggest supplier of Trucks and vehicles to all three Services but they have shown no inclination towards innovation and improvement in quality. They could never supply the quality of a Tatras or Volvo in a heavy load carrier. Their business model continues to be Birla's "Ambassador" car supply model.

When it comes to Indian Army, they are too small a fry in the Supply Chain of MoD and GoI. When it comes to importing, I bet half of the parts in this so-called TATA vehicle would be Chinese... I am equally sure that 80 percent of items in your house are of foreign origins including tiles fitted on the floor.

On TATA Whap I am only asking for a competitive selection as mandated by Rules... why are you barking up a wrong tree.. Indian Army is not a traunt boy to pick up whatever they want from Chor Bazar.