Indian Army T- 90 (Bhishma) and T- 72 (M-1) Tanks

[Shashank Nayak]

Not necessarily. You can bring a 60 ton MBT up there if adequate transportation infrastructure is made available.

And as Bleh said, you need a great deal of gun depression if you want to inflict the heaviest amount of damage to the enemy at the lowest damage to your own and you can't have that kind of depression with a 50-ton tank and provide adequate armor protection as well, it's just not possible, not with the current state of our material sciences.

That would mean overhauling our bridges in ladakh again.. many of them have recently been strengthened to be able to transport T-72 / T-90..
Chinese 35 ton light tank is oversold though

 

[ArgonPrime]

That would mean overhauling our bridges in ladakh again.. many of them have recently been strengthened to be able to transport T-72 / T-90..

I know that but the thing is, you need to develop your infrastructure to fit your doctrine and not the other way round.

 

[Swiftfarts]

Superior but not undetectable..
Here is another scenario.. There is a group of armata tanks which are targeted using a large number of airburst fragmentation artillery shells or sub munitions, damaging the sensors or radar.. Then these Armata tanks turrets are targetted by tank fired APFSDS rounds . What happens then, with Afghanit compromised..?

It does use a new generation ERA ( malachit ) as a last resort which can also fit on it's thin turret.
Protection is between 1000 to 1100 mm vs APFSDS and 1200 to 1400 mm vs HEAT, probably higher. So i think it can take care of it even if Afghanit failed & and whole thing has been made modular , even if turret is damaged or compromised ,a new one can be added in short notice with better design. instead of building a whole new tank.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

New Serbian m-84(local version of T-72) upgrade shows a much better era coverage.
View attachment 60320

 

[Swiftfarts]

New Serbian m-84(local version of T-72) upgrade shows a much better era coverage.
View attachment 60320

View attachment 60321

This ERA coverage is far better than anything i have seen , bearing russian T 90M, Proryv. I think few years down the line when our own T 90 are upgraded, we will see something like this with kontakt-5 ERA being replaced by Relikt.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Problem is this type of upgrade is not rocket science. We already have era mk 2. Only thing is that, it should be placed better to give it a better coverage over the T-72 and T-90.As far as engine is concerned, the 750hp engine of the t-72 is uprated to 1000 hp. Sights and electronics can be adopted from the arjun program. However we do need a functioning APS system.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Polish upgraded t-72. It shows additional composite modules in the turret similar to AMAP armour modules developed by IBD for Leaopard 2 revolution and leo 2a7 projects.

 

[Swiftfarts]

Problem is this type of upgrade is not rocket science. We already have era mk 2. Only thing is that, it should be placed better to give it a better coverage over the T-72 and T-90.As far as engine is concerned, the 750hp engine of the t-72 is uprated to 1000 hp. Sights and electronics can be adopted from the arjun program. However we do need a functioning APS system.

How good is ERA Mk2 compared to kontakt-5 ? is it better or just it's copy.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

DRDO claims that ERA mk 2 is comparable or better than Kontackt 5. However even that ERA Mk2 is more than 5 years old. I hope they come up with MK 3 version. As shown here there are multiple reactive elements.

 

[vampyrbladez]

What would be the penetration of APFSDS under mango project . Is it meant for T-72 / T-90s current gun/autoloader ?

Bhai sometimes open the article and read it as well.

The penetration of a BM-42M 'Mango' shell from Russia is 450-510 mm against ERA

The DRDO 125 mm MK2 shell has a penetration of 515-550 mm against ERA.

In the next financial year, this ammunition will be produced in India for which the modernisation of the production facility was going on as noted in the article.

That is why Govt. wants OFB Corporatisation, to prevent fuckups like in 2000s to manufacture faulty shells.

 

[vampyrbladez]

DRDO claims that ERA mk 2 is comparable or better than Kontackt 5. However even that ERA Mk2 is more than 5 years old. I hope they come up with MK 3 version. As shown here there are multiple reactive elements.

If ERA can take on AMK 339 on its own then it has the ability to withstand 450 mm of FSAPDS penetration.

This is similar to the Relikt ERA

 

[Bleh]

Here's something most people don't know.

Possibly the best upgrade concept for T-72/64 series is actually by French GIAT meant for Slovakia. It was to modify (not change) the turret to a Leclerc based model called T-21.

Ultimately nothing came off it, but it was a great design.

How good is ERA Mk2 compared to kontakt-5 ? is it better or just it's copy.

DRDO claims that ERA mk 2 is comparable or better than Kontackt 5. However even that ERA Mk2 is more than 5 years old. I hope they come up with MK 3 version. As shown here there are multiple reactive elements.

By looks off the design it's just a blatant copy of K-5 with more powerful explosive lining.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

If ERA can take on AMK 339 on its own then it has the ability to withstand 450 mm of FSAPDS penetration.

This is similar to the Relikt ERA

AMK339 is the army designation of the Russiam bm 42 Mango round.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

By looks off the design it's just a blatant copy of K-5 with more powerful explosive lining.
[/QUOTE]
I think Kontackt 5 had 1 or 2 reactive elements. Kontakt-5 uses a heavy steel shell, into which the 4S22 reactive element is inserted. Depending on where the tile is used, one or two reactive elements are installed. The 4S22 reactive elements are using more powerful explosive fillers with a TNT equivalency of 0.33 kilograms compared to the 0.28 kilograms of the earlier 4S20 reactive element of Kontakt-1.

Nii Stali claims that Kontakt 5 ERA provides protection equivalent to 400-500 mm steel against RPGs and ATGMs, 200-250 mm steel against HEAT tank and artillery ammunition, and reduces the penetration of APFSDS by 20%. This is said to increase the armor protection of the T-72B by factors 1.2 against APFSDS and 1.9-2.0 against shaped charges. Nii Stali also claimed that a T-55 eqiupped with Kontakt-5 ERA is able to resist APFSDS ammunition with up to 400 mm penetration.
Source: https://below-the-turret-ring.blogspot.com/2016/04/explosive-reactive-armor-some-history.html
The DRDO mk2 ERA, from the picture seems to use 4 or more reactive elements. This in addition to the fact that HEMRL can produce much superior explosive compared to TNT (as done by NII Stali in 1980s), puts the ERA Mk2 above Kontact 5, and at least similar or better in performance to Relikit. However, the picture might just be a representative image.

 

[Swiftfarts]

By looks off the design it's just a blatant copy of K-5 with more powerful explosive lining.

I think Kontackt 5 had 1 or 2 reactive elements. Kontakt-5 uses a heavy steel shell, into which the 4S22 reactive element is inserted. Depending on where the tile is used, one or two reactive elements are installed. The 4S22 reactive elements are using more powerful explosive fillers with a TNT equivalency of 0.33 kilograms compared to the 0.28 kilograms of the earlier 4S20 reactive element of Kontakt-1.
View attachment 60342
Nii Stali claims that Kontakt 5 ERA provides protection equivalent to 400-500 mm steel against RPGs and ATGMs, 200-250 mm steel against HEAT tank and artillery ammunition, and reduces the penetration of APFSDS by 20%. This is said to increase the armor protection of the T-72B by factors 1.2 against APFSDS and 1.9-2.0 against shaped charges. Nii Stali also claimed that a T-55 eqiupped with Kontakt-5 ERA is able to resist APFSDS ammunition with up to 400 mm penetration.
Source: https://below-the-turret-ring.blogspot.com/2016/04/explosive-reactive-armor-some-history.html
The DRDO mk2 ERA, from the picture seems to use 4 or more reactive elements. This in addition to the fact that HEMRL can produce much superior explosive compared to TNT (as done by NII Stali in 1980s), puts the ERA Mk2 above Kontact 5, and at least similar or better in performance to Relikit. However, the picture might just be a representative image.

View attachment 60344
[/QUOTE]
If it is so much better than, why are we using it on T 72 and not on T 90? i highly doubt it is as effective as Relikit and nothing more than a copy of kontakt-5.

as mentioned above , it's performance is equal to that of kontakt-5, probably the reason why it's going on T 72 since T 90 already has it's equivalent. we will probably see a Relikit upgrade down the line for T 90. Than DRDO will come up with a Relikit copy and we will go for malachit with Armata .

 

[Swiftfarts]

Relikit can defeat M829A3 DU rounds, which was designed specifically to deal with kontakt-5.
no way DRDO manage to build one on it's own. Russians would have offered something better in no time. US latest M829A4 might probably has a data link since it's break away tip can be propelled forward using small explosive charge to make sure ERA is triggered and plates cleared before DU round hit. It's is designed specifically to deal with Relikit. But Russians already have move to malachit and Hard kill APS like Afghanit.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

The ERA MK2 clearly has 4 or more reactive elements (as evident from the schematic shown in the DRDO document). Hence clearly it is not a copy of Kontact 5. As far as performance is concerned, DRDO has only mentioned that it has similar performance to Kontack 5. Also, mentioned is that it can be fitted to T-72, T-90 and Arjun. It is being currently fitted on upgraded T-72 and will also feature on Arjun mk1A.

 

[Swiftfarts]

The ERA MK2 clearly has 4 or more reactive elements (as evident from the schematic shown in the DRDO document). Hence clearly it is not a copy of Kontact 5. As far as performance is concerned, DRDO has only mentioned that it has similar performance to Kontack 5. Also, mentioned is that it can be fitted to T-72, T-90 and Arjun. It is being currently fitted on upgraded T-72 and will also feature on Arjun mk1A.

Relikt is twice as effective as K-5. So if ERA Mk2 has similar performance to K-5 , than it is not Relikt .VT-4 FY4 ERA is licensed copy of Relikt ( i am skeptic about this though, but it might be true ). It will be a headache if pukes went for it in numbers.
time to go for Armata.

Look like we are going to be the first foreign customer. Milk the holy cow, russian style

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

I highly doubt that Russia will transfer era tech to China. India has signed TOT license agreement for T-90 still hasn't still got the technology for kontact 5, 125 mm gun or its composite armour.

 

[Swiftfarts]

I highly doubt that Russia will transfer era tech to China. India has signed TOT license agreement for T-90 still hasn't still got the technology for kontact 5, 125 mm gun or its composite armour.

I doubt that to, but what if FY4 ERA turn out to be Relikt copy ?
all of our T 90 would be at a disadvantage and would have to be upgraded with new autoloader and gun in order to use longer penetrator to deal with it.
Better to look for armata. It meets all our FRCV requirements and is superior to anything out there.