Indian Army SIG Sauer 716 assault rifle.

[Hari Sud]

Separate units with separate offence and defence duty carry different rifles. That is my understanding of why two rifles were preferred for the Army. Already special forces have an entirely different small arms, but they all start their basic training on INSAS and some times on Lee.

Moreover there is a huge price difference between Sig Sayer and AK103. Also combat these days takes place at 300 to 400 yard. Both these rifles have that range. One will blow the doors of the hinges and other will pierce the door. In either case it is enemy’s nightmare.

The only other nightmare is ammunition supply and resupply. That is Quarter Master’s nightmare.

 

[abingdonboy]

Separate units with separate offence and defence duty carry different rifles. That is my understanding of why two rifles were preferred for the Army. Already special forces have an entirely different small arms,

Nonsense, show me another modern army that has entirely different small arms for their frontline and non-frontline troops (SF not included), only the IA pursues this odd and insane strategy.

What happens with training? During basic training, which rifle will the Jawans train with? If it is Ak 103, then they will have to start all over again when they are issued Sig 716 on the front lines. And then what about Caracal? During a war, when we will have to use all the infantry we have, who will be issued Sig 716 and who will be issued AK's? Can IA give some guarantee that the rest of the troops equipped with AK's will not be engaging in the same intensity combat as those troops with Sig 716's? Will any regiment have a disproportionate number of Sig 716 or Caracal as compared to other regiments? What will that do to perceptions of various regiments?

You are trying to make a logical justifcation for this when there is none, it is all about $$$ for some generals in an offshore bank account and nothing else.

 

[Hari Sud]

Money makes the decisions and how much more taxes are you prepared to pay for a million Sig Sayer purchases.

Nonsense, show me another modern army that has entirely different small arms for their frontline and non-frontline troops (SF not included), only the IA pursues this odd and insane strategy.




You are trying to make a logical justifcation for this when there is none, it is all about $$$ for some generals in an offshore bank account and nothing else.

 

[nongaddarliberal]

Money makes the decisions and how much more taxes are you prepared to pay for a million Sig Sayer purchases.

The Hindu reported that sig Sauer 716 won the assault rifle tender by quoting a price of $990 per rifle and Caracal Car 816 won the carbine tender by quoting $1150 per piece.
We can arm our entire army with 7 lakhs sig Sauer 716 assault Rifles and 4.5 lakhs Caracal car 816 carbines in less than $1.25 billion with spares and services costing extra. And few months ago MOD said that they will equip our military with assault rifle costing a total of $1.9 billion.
Now keep wondering why we are still buying Ak103 rifles.

Please refer to this.

For some reason, when it comes to modernizing the entire infantry including new helmets, rifles and BPJ's, 3-4 billion seems like some insurmountable sum of money that the country can't afford according to our top brass and defence enthusiasts.

 

[binayak95]

The results speak for themselves. Why is the IA sabotaging Arjun in favour of 400 more T90? Why did they frame FRCV to favour the T-14? Where the heck did this AK103 deal come from?

Russia has a LONG history of greasing palms and leveraging their intel services to secure arms deals.

I cannot think of a single defence deal from russia in the last 10 years that was justified, that would have happened if there was a global tender.

Just one - the Vikramaditya deal.

And while it is true that Russkies have had compromised several leaders and officers in the past to get good deals - that is no longer true.

This AK103 deal is HOCUS POCUS. I'll believe it when it is signed.

The IA is going ahead with SIG 716s and CAR 816s. Once they come in, it'll be a matter of months before everyone else starts aping the army (IAF, IN, CAPFs). SIG and Caracal understand this and thus have quoted at cost to break into a major market.

As far as T90s are considered - they have certain advantages over the Arjun in terms of being able to cross the BCD defensive lines of Porkland - Arjun cant because Paki infra cant handle an Arjun.

Having said that- lets see what comes of the Reliance involvement in Arjun project.

 

[rkhanna]

Nonsense. Who is paying you to sell snake oil on this forum. Brits have nothing to offer so what are you selling?

my 2 paisa

@Hari - While abingdonboy is talking about the arjun metaphorically. It can also be taken literally. During Trials in the Mid 2000s the Arjun was getting sabotaged SO much that DRDO out of frustration installed a blackbox so that the Army peeps would back off. This is known fact and on the record. It is also google able and a long discussion on BRF as well.

@abingdonboy agree and understand the sentiment but Real Politik requires also that we greese the Russian Palm (and that will always be the Achilles Heel of the country) - Without these small nonsensical tenders we will never get access to What we REALLY want - S-400 / Akull IIs, Gorshkovs, - Capital Items that no other country will sell us.

For everything else we have pretty much gone western . Rafale, P-8s, Drones, Chinooks, Apaches, Etc etc

 

[mohitbhagat]

Just one - the Vikramaditya deal.

And while it is true that Russkies have had compromised several leaders and officers in the past to get good deals - that is no longer true.

This AK103 deal is HOCUS POCUS. I'll believe it when it is signed.

The IA is going ahead with SIG 716s and CAR 816s. Once they come in, it'll be a matter of months before everyone else starts aping the army (IAF, IN, CAPFs). SIG and Caracal understand this and thus have quoted at cost to break into a major market.

As far as T90s are considered - they have certain advantages over the Arjun in terms of being able to cross the BCD defensive lines of Porkland - Arjun cant because Paki infra cant handle an Arjun.

Having said that- lets see what comes of the Reliance involvement in Arjun project.

The thing is that the negotiations with sig and Caracal has just started and will take time. Anyone who have a decent knowledge about firearms will want sig & Caracal to supply and arm our entire military. But we Indians are known to take stupid decisions specially when it comes to the infantry and our soldiers

 

[mohitbhagat]

Please refer to this.

For some reason, when it comes to modernizing the entire infantry including new helmets, rifles and BPJ's, 3-4 billion seems like some insurmountable sum of money that the country can't afford according to our top brass and defence enthusiasts.

We're talking about arming around 1.5 million soldiers in our military with equipments that is supposed to stay there for 2 decades. And $4 billion is not too much money. Our soldiers deserve every single penny of it.

 

[mohitbhagat]

Separate units with separate offence and defence duty carry different rifles. That is my understanding of why two rifles were preferred for the Army. Already special forces have an entirely different small arms, but they all start their basic training on INSAS and some times on Lee.

Moreover there is a huge price difference between Sig Sayer and AK103. Also combat these days takes place at 300 to 400 yard. Both these rifles have that range. One will blow the doors of the hinges and other will pierce the door. In either case it is enemy’s nightmare.

The only other nightmare is ammunition supply and resupply. That is Quarter Master’s nightmare.

Not just two rifles. Don't forget about the carbines chambered in 5.56 nato.
As far as sig & ak are compared sig have quoted a very good price which will further come down if we ask them to supply 6.5 lakhs of them. Also sigs price is not absurd but it's quality and performance deserves the price tag.
Armies around the world don't just issue different caliber weapons to different branches but they more of just issue different barrel length which can be carbine, assault or marksmen rifle length

 

[mohitbhagat]

Separate units with separate offence and defence duty carry different rifles. That is my understanding of why two rifles were preferred for the Army. Already special forces have an entirely different small arms, but they all start their basic training on INSAS and some times on Lee.

Moreover there is a huge price difference between Sig Sayer and AK103. Also combat these days takes place at 300 to 400 yard. Both these rifles have that range. One will blow the doors of the hinges and other will pierce the door. In either case it is enemy’s nightmare.

The only other nightmare is ammunition supply and resupply. That is Quarter Master’s nightmare.

Not just two rifles. Don't forget about the carbines chambered in 5.56 nato.
As far as sig & ak are compared sig have quoted a very good price which will further come down if we ask them to supply 6.5 lakhs of them. Also sigs price is not absurd but it's quality and performance deserves the price tag.
Armies around the world don't just issue different caliber weapons to different branches but they more of just issue different barrel length which can be carbine, assault or marksmen rifle length

 

[mohitbhagat]

Separate units with separate offence and defence duty carry different rifles. That is my understanding of why two rifles were preferred for the Army. Already special forces have an entirely different small arms, but they all start their basic training on INSAS and some times on Lee.

Moreover there is a huge price difference between Sig Sayer and AK103. Also combat these days takes place at 300 to 400 yard. Both these rifles have that range. One will blow the doors of the hinges and other will pierce the door. In either case it is enemy’s nightmare.

The only other nightmare is ammunition supply and resupply. That is Quarter Master’s nightmare.

Not just two rifles. Don't forget about the carbines chambered in 5.56 nato.
As far as sig & ak are compared sig have quoted a very good price which will further come down if we ask them to supply 6.5 lakhs of them. Also sigs price is not absurd but it's quality and performance deserves the price tag.
Armies around the world don't just issue different caliber weapons to different branches but they more of just issue different barrel length which can be carbine, assault or marksmen rifle length

 

[Hari Sud]

Mohitbhagat

So many posts all saying nothing but nonsense .

Try summarize them into one.

 

[nongaddarliberal]

my 2 paisa

@Hari - While abingdonboy is talking about the arjun metaphorically. It can also be taken literally. During Trials in the Mid 2000s the Arjun was getting sabotaged SO much that DRDO out of frustration installed a blackbox so that the Army peeps would back off. This is known fact and on the record. It is also google able and a long discussion on BRF as well.

@abingdonboy agree and understand the sentiment but Real Politik requires also that we greese the Russian Palm (and that will always be the Achilles Heel of the country) - Without these small nonsensical tenders we will never get access to What we REALLY want - S-400 / Akull IIs, Gorshkovs, - Capital Items that no other country will sell us.

For everything else we have pretty much gone western . Rafale, P-8s, Drones, Chinooks, Apaches, Etc etc

Assuming the Ak103 deal was only to grease Russian palms, we could have ordered 200,000 for our police forces. What was the requirement to make it the standard rifle of the Indian army? This cannot be considered a small nonsensical tender. It is literally the primary weapon the Indian soldier will fight with.

 

[mohitbhagat]

Assuming the Ak103 deal was only to grease Russian palms, we could have ordered 200,000 for our police forces. What was the requirement to make it the standard rifle of the Indian army? This cannot be considered a small nonsensical tender. It is literally the primary weapon the Indian soldier will fight with.

India have the biggest paramilitary force in the world. They could have bought a million rifles

 

[mohitbhagat]

Mohitbhagat

So many posts all saying nothing but nonsense .

Try summarize them into one.

Yeah if you'll notice you'll find its the same post that got posted multiple times due to technical errors. And even after reading the same thing 3 times you're not able to get what I'm saying then there's nothing to talk with you

 

[devhensh]

Just one - the Vikramaditya deal.

And while it is true that Russkies have had compromised several leaders and officers in the past to get good deals - that is no longer true.

This AK103 deal is HOCUS POCUS. I'll believe it when it is signed.

The IA is going ahead with SIG 716s and CAR 816s. Once they come in, it'll be a matter of months before everyone else starts aping the army (IAF, IN, CAPFs). SIG and Caracal understand this and thus have quoted at cost to break into a major market.

As far as T90s are considered - they have certain advantages over the Arjun in terms of being able to cross the BCD defensive lines of Porkland - Arjun cant because Paki infra cant handle an Arjun.

Having said that- lets see what comes of the Reliance involvement in Arjun project.

Good conclusion and summarization, in a thread, where same information is being repeated again and again....

Thus, without going into politics or blaming Indian Army, i would say this is a very very good deal(if they manage to finalize the SIG 716 Gen 2 and Caracal 816)...
To me what is paramount is that the Indian Soldiers and officers get the best of best..

I can write pages about the virtues about these two guns , but one main point which nobody mentioned is that SIG is a complete systems provider. There are very few companies like SIG, which produce each and everything related to firearm systems.....I would just mention two....OPTICS and BARREL...both are one of the best in world.......and these are two areas which distinguish a very good rifle from a good/average rifle..... Just imagine buying rifles from say Koreans and getting optics from Americans/ Germans at premium...now everything can be part of a negotiated package !!!

The Caracal rifle was designed by the guys who deisgned the HK 416, and some very knowlegeable people say that it's even better than HK 416 specially in sand and dusty environvents.....at the offered price, it's a steal ! and i come from a Country / state which has one of highest gun ownership and knowledgebase (even by US standards)

Thus without writing more,I am attaching two review links from a very knowledgeable firarms expert and an author of boof black rilfes....enjoy !

 

[devhensh]

Another advantage of choosing the combination, of these two rifles is that, both these are AR10 / AR 15 style rifles, with almost identical manual of arms and ergonomics, so minimum retraining for troops....Anybody who had fired an AR15 can fire another AR15 of another brand blindfolded(believe me, i know).......Also, AR15 styling/ergonomics, is so good that even the latest russian AK12 / Ak 15 rifles have just copied them (exteriors)....

 

[binayak95]

Another advantage of choosing the combination, of these two rifles is that, both these are AR10 / AR 15 style rifles, with almost identical manual of arms and ergonomics, so minimum retraining for troops....Anybody who had fired an AR15 can fire another AR15 of another brand blindfolded(believe me, i know).......Also, AR15 styling/ergonomics, is so good that even the latest russian AK12 / Ak 15 rifles have just copied them (exteriors)....

PLus add the huge aftermarket accessories that are available for AR-15s - from triggers to scopes to buttstocks - to barrels, flashlights, foregrips, the list is endless. about damn time we had moved onto the AR-15 platform in my opinion.

 

[smestarz]

@mohitbhagat IA is one of the most confused army in the world when it comes to what it really needs.
IT is the army whose top brass are confused about what calibre they want, We had very reliable FN FAL which was 7.62 and because there was a trend to go for 5.56 all over the world, they went for 5.56 calibre without really understanding their need is different than other countries needs. Even the Americans had made a mistake going for 5.56 mm. calibre, After the war, The Americans wanted to insist on their calibre.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EM-2_rifle#NATO_standardisation
India is also very undecided.
7.62 X 51 is powerful and has good ballistics, but its too powerful for full auto
5.56 is not that powerful and does not have great stopping power, but is controllable in full auto, and can carry more in combat than 7.62 X 51. The Russian 7.62 x 39 is good round and there are in big quantity. Its lighter round than 7.62 X 51 but has issue with full auto control
Then there are rounds like 6.8 Grendel, which are possibly best of both the worlds.

So its best that IA decides which round or rounds it needs for its applications and then go for rifle which possibly can fire both (with changes of barrel and part receiver) Such weapons are known to be there.
There are news about OFB Kalantak on which IA was undecided. For CQB, OFB had developed 5.65 x 33 round, and this round has good characteristics,. but IA then is unsure about both the weapon and the round.

Also if you get time, do read about this

Multi Calibre Individual Weapon System (MCIWS)

 

[mohitbhagat]

@mohitbhagat IA is one of the most confused army in the world when it comes to what it really needs.
IT is the army whose top brass are confused about what calibre they want, We had very reliable FN FAL which was 7.62 and because there was a trend to go for 5.56 all over the world, they went for 5.56 calibre without really understanding their need is different than other countries needs. Even the Americans had made a mistake going for 5.56 mm. calibre, After the war, The Americans wanted to insist on their calibre.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EM-2_rifle#NATO_standardisation
India is also very undecided.
7.62 X 51 is powerful and has good ballistics, but its too powerful for full auto
5.56 is not that powerful and does not have great stopping power, but is controllable in full auto, and can carry more in combat than 7.62 X 51. The Russian 7.62 x 39 is good round and there are in big quantity. Its lighter round than 7.62 X 51 but has issue with full auto control
Then there are rounds like 6.8 Grendel, which are possibly best of both the worlds.

So its best that IA decides which round or rounds it needs for its applications and then go for rifle which possibly can fire both (with changes of barrel and part receiver) Such weapons are known to be there.
There are news about OFB Kalantak on which IA was undecided. For CQB, OFB had developed 5.65 x 33 round, and this round has good characteristics,. but IA then is unsure about both the weapon and the round.

Also if you get time, do read about this

Multi Calibre Individual Weapon System (MCIWS)

It's too late now to discuss about adopting new caliber. It's not easy to just switch to another caliber otherwise western countries would have already done it. Yes you are right when you said we just blindly copied the west for 5.56 nato. We could have easily upgraded our SLRs and could have adopted 5.56 in place of our sterling carbines. Also when 5.56 was adopted there was no problem about the insurgency which became more intense after 1990s. It's our long experience with them which has realized us that it doesn't have the sufficient stopping power when facing mujahideens.
About new caliber the new 5.56 nato ie m855a1 has more is superior in accuracy, armor penetrating and also much larger would channel than the older m855 rounds. This new m855a1 is going to be new nato standard ammo.
About ofb.... They simply have not reached the level of sophistication and advancement in which you can adopt their weapons for a modern military leave alone for a military of the future. MSMC is good as a smg but not as a carbine.