Indian Army SIG Sauer 716 assault rifle.

[abingdonboy]

Well lets see what happens.......
If army really adopts a rifle which Russia itself is not using then we're going to need a lot of meditation classes to control our irritation.....
We're getting sigs @$990 per rifle. And if we still going for an old Ak103... Then god save us...

Wait and see? It’s a done deal, it’s onlt a matter of procedural formalities at this point. Have you heard even a single dissenting voice to this deal from any official?

AK103 will be with the IA within the next 18 months you can bet you house on it.

 

[mohitbhagat]

And if you think the IA is going to get anything resembling that, you are dreaming. Imagine the mkst basic AK you can imagine, that is what they are about to order and that is what will serve with the IA in vast numbers until 2040-50.

Imagine that, the basic AK103 will be serving with the IA over 100 years but since it was first produced (1947) when india is the 2nd/3rd largest economy on the planet.

Disappointment doesn’t even begin to cover my feelings on this topic. What a disgrace.

I know they are not going for AK Alfa..... But I always wished it to get adopted, specially when army issued an open tender and Reliance Defense have an agreement to manufacture Ak Alfa in India with Kalasnikov Israel

 

[abingdonboy]

Well the iwi lost in both tenders by Sig & Caracal. And about the UAE carbine.... It's a really good one. People know very less about it but its an excellent weapon... So don't worry about it

I find it hard to believe that IWI would lose both, they have a very close link to the Indian market and have already localised their products.

 

[abingdonboy]

I know they are not going for AK Alfa..... But I always wished it to get adopted, specially when army issued an open tender and Reliance Defense have an agreement to manufacture Ak Alfa in India with Kalasnikov Israel

Yeah well Pappu killed off any chance of that with his fake dramas.

 

[mohitbhagat]

Yeah well Pappu killed off any chance of that with his fake dramas.

It's not about pappu.... Its about g2g deal instead of open tender. We'll get a much better deal and rifle if we go ahead with the open tender. There are a lot of rifles out there who are chambered in 7.62×39 mm

 

[mohitbhagat]

I find it hard to believe that IWI would lose both, they have a very close link to the Indian market and have already localised their products.

Well you can never know I was a bit surprised when I came to know that the rifle which MSRP at $2385 in US civilian market has been offered for $990 per piece. Now imagine the price if we ask them to supply us 6.5 lakhs more

 

[abingdonboy]

Well you can never know I was a bit surprised when I came to know that the rifle which MSRP at $2385 in US civilian market has been offered for $990 per piece. Now imagine the price if we ask them to supply us 6.5 lakhs more

Instead IA will go for
The mlsf costly and inefficient method, small piecemeal orders across 2-3 different OEMs, they have to maximise their kickbacks after all.

 

[abingdonboy]

It's not about pappu.... Its about g2g deal instead of open tender. We'll get a much better deal and rifle if we go ahead with the open tender. There are a lot of rifles out there who are chambered in 7.62×39 mm

If not for Pappu this deal for AKs could’ve gone to
reliance which would’ve been some consolation as it would build up the capacity of a private player. Instead it’s gojng to the same Old OFB. No upsides to this deal.

 

[abingdonboy]

By the way @mohitbhagat where did you see the $990 price? For that price may as well equip the entire army, why bother with the AK-103, how much cheaper can it possibly be? Even the INSAS is around $600-700. If the IA went to a single vendor for 700-800,000 guns the savings would be immense. 100,000 716s and 650,000 AK103s is just going to be needlessly expensive and will create operational issues later down the road.

But of course no one in these offices of power cares about harmomisation or economies of scale.

 

[mohitbhagat]

By the way @mohitbhagat where did you see the $990 price? For that price may as well equip the entire army, why bother with the AK-103, how much cheaper can it possibly be? Even the INSAS is around $600-700. If the IA went to a single vendor for 700-800,000 guns the savings would be immense. 100,000 716s and 650,000 AK103s is just going to be needlessly expensive and will create operational issues later down the road.

But of course no one in these offices of power cares about harmomisation or economies of scale.

The Hindu reported that sig Sauer 716 won the assault rifle tender by quoting a price of $990 per rifle and Caracal Car 816 won the carbine tender by quoting $1150 per piece.
We can arm our entire army with 7 lakhs sig Sauer 716 assault Rifles and 4.5 lakhs Caracal car 816 carbines in less than $1.25 billion with spares and services costing extra. And few months ago MOD said that they will equip our military with assault rifle costing a total of $1.9 billion.
Now keep wondering why we are still buying Ak103 rifles.

 

[mohitbhagat]

If not for Pappu this deal for AKs could’ve gone to
reliance which would’ve been some consolation as it would build up the capacity of a private player. Instead it’s gojng to the same Old OFB. No upsides to this deal.

Its not about pappu. It's about ofb and our babus. Ofb wants to keep manufacturing weapons as long as it can with tot and without any R&D of its own. It's because of the ofb that we're buying Ak103 so that to keep them alive.
Also Kalasnikov wanted to manufacture Ak103 with adanis not Reliance

 

[abingdonboy]

The Hindu reported that sig Sauer 716 won the assault rifle tender by quoting a price of $990 per rifle and Caracal Car 816 won the carbine tender by quoting $1150 per piece.
We can arm our entire army with 7 lakhs sig Sauer 716 assault Rifles and 4.5 lakhs Caracal car 816 carbines in less than $1.25 billion with spares and services costing extra. And few months ago MOD said that they will equip our military with assault rifle costing a total of $1.9 billion.
Now keep wondering why we are still buying Ak103 rifles.

When is the most sensible and obvious move made? When does India ever leverage its mammoth demand for discounted rates like every other customer does?

 

[abingdonboy]

Its not about pappu. It's about ofb and our babus. Ofb wants to keep manufacturing weapons as long as it can with tot and without any R&D of its own. It's because of the ofb that we're buying Ak103 so that to keep them alive.
Also Kalasnikov wanted to manufacture Ak103 with adanis not Reliance

OFB doesn’t care if they make AK103 or AK15. Pappu made the Reliance/Ambanis toxic for the foreseeable future.

Who knows how the AK103 was selected but of course the SC is busy looking into
The non-existent scam of the malt advanced jet India has ever procured but has never ONCE raised their voice on these suspicious and needless deals with Russia that get signed every year.

 

[nongaddarliberal]

There is so much white noise that i dont know what to make of it. But I dont think the Sig and Carbine orders will be limited to 72K and 94K. I believe when the General meant Infantry he meant the Strike and Holding Corps not just the men sitting on the IB and LOC

Because if you are right then that means our logistic chain has to content with

5.56mm ammo
7.62/50 Ammo
7.62/39 ammo
9mm ammo
.50Cal ammo

Spare Parts / barels etc for all the guns and not just maintaining production quality but also running the ammo up and down the mountains / valleys and deserts and marshlands and try to get the right ammo to the right unit at the right time in a flexible battlefield where units will be working together.


Anybody see the sheer stupidity in that?

Yes, I also see the sheer stupidity of that. But I'm not assuming anything. I just stated what the official orders are, and what they imply

 

[mohitbhagat]

He's the leader of opposition and it's his job to ask questions and create ruckus every time he could. That's what the opposition does in India every single time.
Kalasnikov wanted to manufacture Ak103 with Adanis. The govt told them if they want to pre-select their partner then they will have to come through tender process in which RFI was issued and asked for any rifle chambered in 7.62×39 mm round. So the Russians to make sure they get this tender agreed to make a joint venture with ofb

OFB doesn’t care if they make AK103 or AK15. Pappu made the Reliance/Ambanis toxic for the foreseeable future.

Who knows how the AK103 was selected but of course the SC is busy looking into
The non-existent scam of the malt advanced jet India has ever procured but has never ONCE raised their voice on these suspicious and needless deals with Russia that get signed every year.

 

[mohitbhagat]

When is the most sensible and obvious move made? When does India ever leverage its mammoth demand for discounted rates like every other customer does?

Then how will the babus, ministers and some corrupt military personnel will get rich

 

[Hari Sud]

Then how will the babus, ministers and some corrupt military personnel will get rich

You are imagining too much. Congress Party is history. People are afraid to ask for kickback. But conspiracy theorists are not dead. They are alive and well in this forum.

 

[abingdonboy]

You are imagining too much. Congress Party is history. People are afraid to ask for kickback. But conspiracy theorists are not dead. They are alive and well in this forum.

The results speak for themselves. Why is the IA sabotaging Arjun in favour of 400 more T90? Why did they frame FRCV to favour the T-14? Where the heck did this AK103 deal come from?

Russia has a LONG history of greasing palms and leveraging their intel services to secure arms deals.

I cannot think of a single defence deal from russia in the last 10 years that was justified, that would have happened if there was a global tender.

 

[Hari Sud]

The results speak for themselves. Why is the IA sabotaging Arjun in favour of 400 more T90? Why did they frame FRCV to favour the T-14? Where the heck did this AK103 deal come from?

Russia has a LONG history of greasing palms and leveraging their intel services to secure arms deals.

I cannot think of a single defence deal from russia in the last 10 years that was justified, that would have happened if there was a global tender.

Nonsense. Who is paying you to sell snake oil on this forum. Brits have nothing to offer so what are you selling?

 

[nongaddarliberal]

What happens with training? During basic training, which rifle will the Jawans train with? If it is Ak 103, then they will have to start all over again when they are issued Sig 716 on the front lines. And then what about Caracal? During a war, when we will have to use all the infantry we have, who will be issued Sig 716 and who will be issued AK's? Can IA give some guarantee that the rest of the troops equipped with AK's will not be engaging in the same intensity combat as those troops with Sig 716's? Will any regiment have a disproportionate number of Sig 716 or Caracal as compared to other regiments? What will that do to perceptions of various regiments?