Indian Army SIG Sauer 716 assault rifle.

Lonewarrior

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how is that not related to weapons? SIG SAUER in their cost cutting spree didn't provide rail covers and now they have to cover it with spare camo clothing when in cold or getting gloves which we know often goes with soldiers' pocketmonies instead of being issued as standard...if OFB had done something like this there would be countless rants and jibes over it but apparently SIG SAUER is given benefit of doubt now ?
Because firearm companies are generally not supposed to provide those. The standard vanilla package you get while getting a standard issue rifle is gun, magazine, bayonet, sling and cleaning kit. That's it.
If you want anything extra you must ask for it explicitly.

SIG Sauer didn't provide rail covers, okay fine, they failed on their part that grunts while operating in Kashmir may face this issue.
But what was stopping Army from asking them to provide one? If SIG Sauer can develope a custom DI AR-10 just for our requirements, don't you think they could have supplied grips or even covers?

->Galil ACE, has rail covers and handguards are polymer
->Tavor-7, has rail covers and handguards are polymer
->SIG750, has separately mounted rail sections but handguards are polymer
->OFB R-2 now "Ishapore Assault Rifle :crazy:, has separately mounted rail sections but handguards are polymer
How's it fair to compare aluminium handguard with polymer ones?
 

Johny_Baba

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Because firearm companies are generally not supposed to provide those. The standard vanilla package you get while getting a standard issue rifle is gun, magazine, bayonet, sling and cleaning kit. That's it.
If you want anything extra you must ask for it explicitly.

SIG Sauer didn't provide rail covers, okay fine, they failed on their part that grunts while operating in Kashmir may face this issue.
But what was stopping Army from asking them to provide one? If SIG Sauer can develope a custom DI AR-10 just for our requirements, don't you think they could have supplied grips or even covers?
>But what was stopping Army from asking them to provide one? If SIG Sauer can develope a custom DI AR-10 just for our requirements, don't you think they could have supplied grips or even covers?
because it was not Indian Army which procured them on their terms and trials at all, heck it's very unlikely SIG SAUER even developed it involving the Indian Army

it was our MoD that got involved with them, as some "empowered MoD Committie headed by a senior serving officer" was running this circus and on their side SIG SAUER just upscaled their M400 TREAD series of 5.56 NATO AR into 7.62 NATO one, "took part in the tender and emerged lowest bidder" within just span of some 5 to 6 months lol and MoD happily signed the deal under kathorataa seetharaman's tenure

so again, blaming it on Army when they complain about these issues won't do justice because it was all some afsars + MoD + SIG SAUER trio's doing, not the Army as entity; those trio overlooked many things that an average sainik could face here in their 'emergency procurement' and now there are issues with these

besides i would like to remind again, just because you go overdrive in shielding a maha madharchod comapny like SIG SAUER, that they literally tried to bribe MoD in era of UPA and got their dalla with american wife here jailed over it
and same SIG SAUER got criticised in the US for supplying their armed forces with "modern" P320 pistols//P17 Pistols that fires on their own and ended up injuring many; and SIG SAUER gays claim it got resolved with new batches or whatever but it still happens as this article is from 3 dec 2022, not so old
then entire NGSW-R drama and how promises made but not delivered with that,as i mentioned in past
 

Johny_Baba

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How's it fair to compare aluminium handguard with polymer ones?
? :yawn:
polymer handguards sticking to bare naked hands in cold weather is less likely to happen compared to metallic one, so at least in this regard some issues could have been prevented

We hear about lots of issues on INSAS, but never ever about its polymer handguards sticking in hands of soldiers deployed in Himalayan regions, many of them still patrolling without wearing gloves

btw here is civilian version of M4 provided by FN to US Armed Forces being unboxed
and civilian M16A4 by FN
here they are able to provide it despite 'firearms manufacturers are not supposed to provide those' 🤷‍♂️
likewise their military versions of M16A4 and M4 by FN also come with rail covers supplied in it

in our case MoD + Afsars + SIG SAUER trio just went lazy by mostly going through requirements mentioned on papers and so, like 'bayonet' which despite not intended for SIG M400 Tread in 5.56 NATO when upscaled it to 7.72 NATO as SIG716I they arranged for it - even getting ;Made in Korea; bayonets for that loooool but *somehow* couldn't get a single set of removable rail cover for that rail at bottom...what gives
 

AUSTERLITZ

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Ukraine war shows the well aimed single shot battle rifle tactics are not really that suitable.You expose yourself for a few seconds and pour lead.And fuck the rifle if it jams.AK is still top tier in such conditions.Especially the new chinese rifle doesnt even have burst fire capability,its semi-automatic or full auto going with their doctrine of mass,swamping and saturation fire.SIGs would get overwhelmed if the chinese got within 200 yds.Thats why you need 203s.Despite criticism army made a good choice.AK 12 was flop in ukraine,the ak103 and variants have been preferred.
 

Lonewarrior

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>But what was stopping Army from asking them to provide one? If SIG Sauer can develope a custom DI AR-10 just for our requirements, don't you think they could have supplied grips or even covers?
because it was not Indian Army which procured them on their terms and trials at all, heck it's very unlikely SIG SAUER even developed it involving the Indian Army

it was our MoD that got involved with them, as some "empowered MoD Committie headed by a senior serving officer" was running this circus and on their side SIG SAUER just upscaled their M400 TREAD series of 5.56 NATO AR into 7.62 NATO one, "took part in the tender and emerged lowest bidder" within just span of some 5 to 6 months lol and MoD happily signed the deal under kathorataa seetharaman's tenure

so again, blaming it on Army when they complain about these issues won't do justice because it was all some afsars + MoD + SIG SAUER trio's doing, not the Army as entity; those trio overlooked many things that an average sainik could face here in their 'emergency procurement' and now there are issues with these

besides i would like to remind again, just because you go overdrive in shielding a maha madharchod comapny like SIG SAUER, that they literally tried to bribe MoD in era of UPA and got their dalla with american wife here jailed over it
and same SIG SAUER got criticised in the US for supplying their armed forces with "modern" P320 pistols//P17 Pistols that fires on their own and ended up injuring many; and SIG SAUER gays claim it got resolved with new batches or whatever but it still happens as this article is from 3 dec 2022, not so old
then entire NGSW-R drama and how promises made but not delivered with that,as i mentioned in past
Hey Man...no one's shielding SIG here. I'm well aware with the fact that SIG has a long history of corruption, no need to remind me. Hell even in NGSW every company came up with innovative solutions to meed Army's demand, some CT some polymers; and SIGs solution was simply sTeEl AmMo.

My point's very simple
- How is aluminium handguard getting too cold a manufacturer'e problem? Don't you think the most cutting edge KAC LAMG won't suffer from this problem? Ask SIG for rail covers, buy aftermarket grips, provide gloves...why scrutinize the gun?
- Another problem was ammo...but I guess that problem too has been resolved now given we now make NATO spec ammo
- Last but perhaps the elephant in the room; recoil. Are you sure we provide "good" training to regular grunts to handle AR-10s? Even here in DFI there a pic of a soldier and you can clearly see how he's shouldering it.

SIG Sauer is a firm deep in sh*t. DI rifles have their own shortcomings. There're fair indications that the deal was rigged. AR-10 will have more recoil than AR-15. That 6061 on the handguard can definitely get too cold to handle...agreeing on everything.

But why make such a fuss about a problem that can be solved by some aftermarket parts?
Throw a LPVO or even an ACOG, some good foregrip and a supressor on those SIGs...now you tell me, what other gun currently in our service can match it's performance?
 

Lonewarrior

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? :yawn:
polymer handguards sticking to bare naked hands in cold weather is less likely to happen compared to metallic one, so at least in this regard some issues could have been prevented

We hear about lots of issues on INSAS, but never ever about its polymer handguards sticking in hands of soldiers deployed in Himalayan regions, many of them still patrolling without wearing gloves

btw here is civilian version of M4 provided by FN to US Armed Forces being unboxed
and civilian M16A4 by FN
here they are able to provide it despite 'firearms manufacturers are not supposed to provide those' 🤷‍♂️
likewise their military versions of M16A4 and M4 by FN also come with rail covers supplied in it

in our case MoD + Afsars + SIG SAUER trio just went lazy by mostly going through requirements mentioned on papers and so, like 'bayonet' which despite not intended for SIG M400 Tread in 5.56 NATO when upscaled it to 7.72 NATO as SIG716I they arranged for it - even getting ;Made in Korea; bayonets for that loooool but *somehow* couldn't get a single set of removable rail cover for that rail at bottom...what gives
😏
If you want anything extra you must ask for it explicitly.
 

Lonewarrior

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Ukraine war shows the well aimed single shot battle rifle tactics are not really that suitable.You expose yourself for a few seconds and pour lead.And fuck the rifle if it jams.
Except the fact that there's very little amount of battle rifles in Ukraine and even lesser are equipped with powered optics. So despite being a battle rifle it's real-world performance comes down to that of an assault rifle.

Special operations units are quite happy with their tweaked out battle rifles.
AK is still top tier in such conditions.
Nope.
In case of Ukraine or such situations, AK is unfortunately the only solution. From training to maintenance to perhaps the most important ammo; everything is centred around AK.

If this wasn't the reason then you wouldn't have seen the AK-AR abomination the Ukrainians were trying to develop just before the war. It's all because they can only manufacture AK ammo.
SIGs would get overwhelmed if the chinese got within 200 yds.
Well that's the whole point of SIGs; eliminating them way before they can get in 200yds
 

Johny_Baba

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Hey Man...no one's shielding SIG here. I'm well aware with the fact that SIG has a long history of corruption, no need to remind me. Hell even in NGSW every company came up with innovative solutions to meed Army's demand, some CT some polymers; and SIGs solution was simply sTeEl AmMo.

My point's very simple
- How is aluminium handguard getting too cold a manufacturer'e problem? Don't you think the most cutting edge KAC LAMG won't suffer from this problem? Ask SIG for rail covers, buy aftermarket grips, provide gloves...why scrutinize the gun?
- Another problem was ammo...but I guess that problem too has been resolved now given we now make NATO spec ammo
- Last but perhaps the elephant in the room; recoil. Are you sure we provide "good" training to regular grunts to handle AR-10s? Even here in DFI there a pic of a soldier and you can clearly see how he's shouldering it.

SIG Sauer is a firm deep in sh*t. DI rifles have their own shortcomings. There're fair indications that the deal was rigged. AR-10 will have more recoil than AR-15. That 6061 on the handguard can definitely get too cold to handle...agreeing on everything.

But why make such a fuss about a problem that can be solved by some aftermarket parts?
Throw a LPVO or even an ACOG, some good foregrip and a supressor on those SIGs...now you tell me, what other gun currently in our service can match it's performance?
Good so now you agree this post by you isn't entirely accurate
- Trained units are very happy with SIGs.
- Untrained units are complaining about recoil.
- OFB made ammunitions were causing some issues but currently OFB too makes NATO spces ammo.
- All procurement people from army's side want SIGs.
- All procurement people from government's side are kind of unresponsive about SIGs.
- "Some" people are trying to push AK-203 in place of SIGs.

That's all what's happening regarding SIGs.
now please don't blame the army over issues that they did not create; put that blame at right place on right people
the only reason i'm arguing is not over SIG716i being good or bad, it is what it is but you said ;aal waz well; while truth was different and that is only what i was trying to counter
 

AUSTERLITZ

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Except the fact that there's very little amount of battle rifles in Ukraine and even lesser are equipped with powered optics. So despite being a battle rifle it's real-world performance comes down to that of an assault rifle.

Special operations units are quite happy with their tweaked out battle rifles.

Nope.
In case of Ukraine or such situations, AK is unfortunately the only solution. From training to maintenance to perhaps the most important ammo; everything is centred around AK.

If this wasn't the reason then you wouldn't have seen the AK-AR abomination the Ukrainians were trying to develop just before the war. It's all because they can only manufacture AK ammo.

Well that's the whole point of SIGs; eliminating them way before they can get in 200yds
You wont be able to eliminate them before 200yds as you cant afford top tier telescopic sights on all your rifles while also investing in thermals because of the size of the army.If they get close or terrain forces that or its an hilltop assault or trench clearing SIG would be hopeless.Better to go AK with increased DMRs and sniper rifles for long range firepower.War will be won with drones,airpower,artillery,and EW .
 

WolfPack86

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Army uses ‘jugaad’ to turn the American SiG 716 into a mean rifle for soldiers at LoC
Poonch/Bhimber Gali (J&K): It took some ‘jugaad‘, but the American SiG 716 rifle has finally become a formidable choice of weapon for India’s soldiers after it was equipped with ‘eyes’ to operate in the dark, given better grip and the ability to turn it into a light machine gun.


The 7.62×51 mm SiG 716 G2 Patrol assault/battlefield rifles first reached the Line of Control (LoC) in December 2019 after India bought the weapons from the US under emergency procurement. However, it took soldiers some time to get used to the arms.

Several factors were behind this, but primary among them was the fact that Indian soldiers were used to the ever dependable 7.62×39 mm AK-47s and the basic 5.56×45 mm INSAS rifle that was inducted in the early 1990s, sources in the defence establishment told ThePrint.

Also, the American rifle has a higher recoil. The SiG 716 has a higher calibre and is meant to shoot-to-kill at a distance of 600 metres, unlike the INSAS which has a lower range and is not designed to kill at longer distances. The AK-47 also fires a smaller round.

There was also the issue of the rifle sights — the optical device meant for the rifle was not bought to keep the cost down. This effectively made the rifle “almost blind” when operating the dark.

Ammunition was also a concern. While the Americans sold the rifle at a cheaper cost, the ammunition was expensive and hence this meant that a limited quantity was bought.

“A company might sell a rifle at a particular cost. But it makes better money through ammunition and servicing just like a car company does,” another source said.

The grip of the rifle was another stumbling block. Indian soldiers were used to the shorter barrel of the AK-47s for operations, which gave them better grip. In fact, troops had even fixed wooden handles beneath the barrel to improve the grip.

However, when it came to the SiG 716, the rifle did not come with any additional equipment than the standard issue.

All of these issues were addressed by making tweaks.

The Army had, in total, bought over 1.4 lakh of these rifles under two separate contracts.
 

vishnugupt

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Army uses ‘jugaad’ to turn the American SiG 716 into a mean rifle for soldiers at LoC
Poonch/Bhimber Gali (J&K): It took some ‘jugaad‘, but the American SiG 716 rifle has finally become a formidable choice of weapon for India’s soldiers after it was equipped with ‘eyes’ to operate in the dark, given better grip and the ability to turn it into a light machine gun.


The 7.62×51 mm SiG 716 G2 Patrol assault/battlefield rifles first reached the Line of Control (LoC) in December 2019 after India bought the weapons from the US under emergency procurement. However, it took soldiers some time to get used to the arms.

Several factors were behind this, but primary among them was the fact that Indian soldiers were used to the ever dependable 7.62×39 mm AK-47s and the basic 5.56×45 mm INSAS rifle that was inducted in the early 1990s, sources in the defence establishment told ThePrint.

Also, the American rifle has a higher recoil. The SiG 716 has a higher calibre and is meant to shoot-to-kill at a distance of 600 metres, unlike the INSAS which has a lower range and is not designed to kill at longer distances. The AK-47 also fires a smaller round.

There was also the issue of the rifle sights — the optical device meant for the rifle was not bought to keep the cost down. This effectively made the rifle “almost blind” when operating the dark.

Ammunition was also a concern. While the Americans sold the rifle at a cheaper cost, the ammunition was expensive and hence this meant that a limited quantity was bought.

“A company might sell a rifle at a particular cost. But it makes better money through ammunition and servicing just like a car company does,” another source said.

The grip of the rifle was another stumbling block. Indian soldiers were used to the shorter barrel of the AK-47s for operations, which gave them better grip. In fact, troops had even fixed wooden handles beneath the barrel to improve the grip.

However, when it came to the SiG 716, the rifle did not come with any additional equipment than the standard issue.

All of these issues were addressed by making tweaks.

The Army had, in total, bought over 1.4 lakh of these rifles under two separate contracts.
The art of UN Generals.

Foreign weapons:- buy > tweak > trial > induct

Local weapons:- tweak > trials > glaring problems > tweak > trials > more teething problems > more trials > emergency procurement > foreign weapons
 

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