Indian Army SIG Sauer 716 assault rifle.

NoobWannaLearn

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Defense Ministry Decides Not To Reorder American SIG716 Assault Rifles
Due to various ‘snags’ that had surfaced with earlier imports of an equal number of similar weapon systems a year before, India’s Ministry of Defence (MoD) has decided against signing the Rs 700-crore repeat order it approved in late 2020 for 72,400 ‘Patrol’ Sig Sauer assault rifles from the US for its military.

Following several “operational glitches” that surfaced soon after they were issued to Indian Army units deployed along the Line of Control in Kashmir and on counter-insurgency operations in the region from December 2019 onwards, official sources told The Wire that the supplementary procurement of SIG716 7.6251 mm rifles had been abandoned.

The army received 66,400 SIG716 rifles, the Indian Air Force (IAF) received 4,000, and the Indian Navy’s Garud Special Forces received the remaining 2,000 weapon systems.

According to industry officials, the SIG716 rifles had “operational flaws” such as “jamming” while shooting locally produced 7.62 mm cartridges, which were not as effective as imported ammunition, which had been procured in limited quantities but had since been consumed.

When shot, these indigenous ammunition are said to have caused “barrel bulges” in several guns, rendering them useless. These bulges developed after a cartridge failed to exit the rifle after shooting, allowing the subsequent round to build up immense pressure due to the confined air inside the barrel, causing it to bulge, shatter, or even explode entirely.

In comparison to Russian Kalashnikov AK-47 variations or the indigenously manufactured Indian Small Arms System (INSAS) 5.5645 mm assault rifles that Indian Army forces had used for decades, the native ammunition created more recoil or kickback in the weapons.

Burst-mode firing allowed the shooter to fire a predetermined number of rounds – usually two or three – at a target with a single pull of the trigger on a semi-automatic handgun like the SIG716, for example.

Additionally, local changes to the SIG76 rifles were reportedly required, such as changing the grip to provide a tighter grip by putting a ‘wooden handle’ under the 457.2 m long barrel, similar to the innovation the army had previously implemented on AK-47s.

According to recent media reports, certain army units have modified SIG716s with these ‘grips,’ as well as bipods, to provide the rifle more stability against canting. The trajectory of the bullet can be affected by a ‘cant mistake.’

Above all, the rifles lacked optical day, night, holographic, and even basic LED-powered reflex’red-dot’ sights, as the MoD had decided against acquiring these critical auxiliary add-ons, which are essential for precisely aligning targets in conflict zones at ranges ranging from 100m to 700m, based on IA advice.

In skirmish regions, for example, the latter battery-operated sight provides users with a ‘point of aim’ in the shape of an illuminated red dot, a phenomena often seen in action movies; their absence rendered the user fully or partially blind.

Furthermore, without any of these sights to establish a virtual image of the desired target, the shooter was forced to close one eye to make his target, robbing him of vital peripheral vision that may mean the difference between life and death on the battlefield.

The day and night sights, on the other hand, were more advanced and, depending on their magnifications and sophistication, more expensive to import, costing upwards of Rs 50,000 each, for which the MoD had obviated their procurement. It had previously reasoned that indigenous replacements were less expensive.

Several local manufacturers have displayed several sights for eventual attachment onto the SIG716s at the Army War College in Mhow, Madhya Pradesh, in recent months, some of which were under examination and awaited shortlisting to make the rifles operationally more effective.

The IA and the MoD declined to comment on the SIG716s, but many in the military were dissatisfied with the import.

“It is outrageous that a new weapon system acquired at significant cost required to be locally modified before being fully deployed,” a senior IA officer remarked, “because these purchases were processed by an empowered MoD committee headed by a senior military officer.”

It exposed not only errors in the army’s qualitative requirement (QR) formulations for the rifle, but also in the MoD’s entire acquisition procedures, he said, declining to be identified because of the sensitivity of the subject.

The worst aspect, according to another procurement officer, is that no one will ever be held accountable for the blunder. “Acquisitions through MoD empowered committees tended to short-circuit established procedures, resulting in procurement flaws that, in turn, harmed operational efficiency,” he said, asking anonymity.

Over the years, successive parliamentary defence committees and oversight groups such as the Comptroller and Auditor General have chastised the IA’s QR gaffes, leading in a slew of purchases being cancelled or committed, like spacecraft, to indefinite motion, jeopardising force modernization.

For example, in early 2012, Parliament’s Standing Defence on Defence revealed that 41 of the army’s tenders for various equipment had been withdrawn or discontinued in the previous 18 months, primarily due to ‘over ambitious’ QRs.

To emphasise this point, Manohar Parrikar, the late Indian defence minister, said in 2015 at a public occasion in New Delhi that some of the Indian military’s QRs were straight out of “Marvel comic books” and thus unrealistic.

Former defence minister Nirmala Sitharaman approved the purchase of the Sig Sauer gun in late January 2019, after the US company’s proposal was the lowest of three competing suppliers for the deal. Sig Sauer had bid $ 990 each SIG716—each weighing 4.2 kg with a range of roughly 600 metres and a magazine capacity of 20 rounds—while rival Abu Dhabi’s Caracal International had priced its CAR817 rifle at $1,200 per piece, and Israel Weapon Industries had bid $1600 per ACE1 model.

The SIG716s were provided within the specified term of 12 months, in compliance with FTP regulations, under which the tender was concluded.The procurement of an additional 72,400 SIG 716s was approved by the Ministry of Defense in late September 2020.

The SIG716s were designed to be a “stop gap” replacement for the INSAS 5.56x45mm rifles that entered IA service in the mid-1990s, but were deemed “operationally deficient” by the agency in early 2010 for a variety of reasons.

During the time between the first SIG716 consignment purchase and the first SIG716 consignment purchase, the MoD and the IA wasted nearly five years chasing a contract for 66,000 multi-calibre assault rifles, which again fell victim to the force’s QR overreach.

Incredibly, the IA’s Infantry Directorate required them to shift from 5.56x45mm to 7.62x51mm by just replacing their barrel and magazine in their submission for the projected multi-calibre assault weapons. The tender was cancelled in 2015 when all four competing providers were unable to meet the IA’s QRs.

Following that, the MoD tried the ‘Atmanirbhar’ or indigenous route to meet its rifle needs, but the IA rejected the Excalibur 5.56x45mm rifle, which was little more than an upgrade of the INSAS model developed locally by the then state-owned Ordnance Factory Board, leaving the MoD with no choice but to rely on imports.

After addressing several problems ailing the tender since 2019, the MoD sealed a Rs 5,124 crore deal with Russia to license-build 6,71,000 Kalashnikov AK-203 assault weapons at Korwa near Amethi in Uttar Pradesh, mostly for the IA, but also for the IAF, IN, and paramilitaries.

The contract involved the direct import of 20,000 AK-203 rifles with collapsible stocks from Russia for the IA for $1100 each, as part of a bilateral Inter-Governmental Agreement.

However, the Ak-203 contract, which was supposed to start production in March 2022, is still in jeopardy, thanks to US-led sanctions placed on Russia for its invasion of Ukraine two months ago_Official sources believe the agreement will be postponed indefinitely, if not completely abandoned.

In a separate step, the Ministry of Defence added assault weapons to a list of 310 military products that India will no longer import and instead obtain domestically.

As a result, it granted licences to five local defence contractors, including Adani Defence (Ahmedabad), SSS Defence (Bangalore), Jindal Defence (Delhi), and Optic Electronic India (Noida), to produce assault rifles through joint ventures with overseas original equipment manufacturers, effectively halting all Sig Sauer imports. ENDS







India cancels repeat order for 72,400 US assault rifles due to operational problems
The Defence Ministry has cancelled repeat order for purchase of 72,400 ‘Patrol’ Sig Sauer assault rifles from the US for its Armed Forces. Now, the government will look to purchase similar rifles through ‘Make in India’ initiative which is being promoted to give boost to domestic defence industries, said Ministry sources.
Are bahot purana news he uske bad dusra news or aa gaya
 

GLD1980

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Fellas, are the reports of the 716I having issues true or is this just a rumor or excuse to move off American reliance and shift production to India? Can anyone with actual knowledge please clarify?

ETA...
I think it's a positive for India id this is true but I own a 716I and for my knowledge I would like to know if any issues with the platform.
 

Lonewarrior

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Fellas, are the reports of the 716I having issues true or is this just a rumor or excuse to move off American reliance and shift production to India? Can anyone with actual knowledge please clarify?

ETA...
I think it's a positive for India id this is true but I own a 716I and for my knowledge I would like to know if any issues with the platform.
Imported Ammo = SIG going 😃
OFB Ammo = SIG going 😞

Sorry for using such highly technical terms, but it's the whole issue with SIGs...just like it's been with those Negevs...and the MP9s...and those MP5s too
 

Love Charger

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Fellas, are the reports of the 716I having issues true or is this just a rumor or excuse to move off American reliance and shift production to India? Can anyone with actual knowledge please clarify?

ETA...
I think it's a positive for India id this is true but I own a 716I and for my knowledge I would like to know if any issues with the platform.
Good morning
All defense news sources would have covered this news of sig sauer moving production to India.
No not even a remote possibility.
 

GLD1980

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By shift production to India I meant your own rifle design, tooling and production.

What is OFB Ammo? Indian MOD in country supplier?

So can anyone elaborate? What type of ammo and what type of problems?
 

Lonewarrior

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By shift production to India I meant your own rifle design, tooling and production.

What is OFB Ammo? Indian MOD in country supplier?

So can anyone elaborate? What type of ammo and what type of problems?
Yup
OFB or Ordnance Factories are government run defence companies, something similar to say Springfield Armory in US or Tula in Russia

Up until very recently OFB's were making only their own specific variants of ammo. Like we were having an ammo called "5.56 INSAS", dimensionally similar to 5.56x45mm NATO but having slightly different pressure curve. For everything from 9mm to 7.62x51mm we rarely followed any international specs like SAAMI, CIP or NATO; coz we never had a large export market.

The two of the most common problems faced by OFB ammo are; either very low/high bolt velocity or carbon build-up.
 

Kuldeepm952

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By shift production to India I meant your own rifle design, tooling and production.

What is OFB Ammo? Indian MOD in country supplier?

So can anyone elaborate? What type of ammo and what type of problems?
As people with contacts say, OFB ammo is high pressure Lmg rounds but not sure about any other issue, though I am skeptic on this whole faulty ammo issue
Yup
OFB or Ordnance Factories are government run defence companies, something similar to say Springfield Armory in US or Tula in Russia

Up until very recently OFB's were making only their own specific variants of ammo. Like we were having an ammo called "5.56 INSAS", dimensionally similar to 5.56x45mm NATO but having slightly different pressure curve. For everything from 9mm to 7.62x51mm we rarely followed any international specs like SAAMI, CIP or NATO; coz we never had a large export market.

The two of the most common problems faced by OFB ammo are; either very low/high bolt velocity or carbon build-up.
Is this really true though, OFB ammo was used in both Mags as well as FALs for decades and isn't it IAs fault to go for a gun which is not modified for indian made bullets, doesn't this really reflects on poor emergency procurement procedures. So how true is that statement aside from some reporting by media and you also know about certain unknown sources issue and the media which cannot tell difference between mortar and howitzer. Also the point of some export ammo by OFB told as fine in YouTube. Or is it the fact that Sigs need more maintenance that AKs and Insas.
Any official statement regarding this, conflicting reports from various sources doesn't helps at all. I have always been skeptic about this ammo thing, too much divergence among different sources and conclusions.
This brings me to conclusion that either the ammo is faulty or the IA had no hindsight and poorly chose a rifle which was not even tested extensively on local ammo and as of then there are no alternatives to procure ammo from so really what is going on.
 

Lonewarrior

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As people with contacts say, OFB ammo is high pressure Lmg rounds but not sure about any other issue, though I am skeptic on this whole faulty ammo issue

Is this really true though, OFB ammo was used in both Mags as well as FALs for decades and isn't it IAs fault to go for a gun which is not modified for indian made bullets, so how true is that statement aside from some reporting by media and you also know about certain unknown sources issue and the media which cannot tell difference between mortar and howitzer. Also the point of some export ammo by OFB told as fine in YouTube. Or is it the fact that Sigs need more maintenance that AKs and Insas.
Any official statement regarding this, conflicting reports from various sources doesn't helps at all. I have always been skeptic about this ammo thing, too much divergence among different sources and conclusions.
Both MAG and FAL were made in India. So despite being a copy there is a fair chance that those were tweaked to suit Indian ammunition. Or perhaps those itself were manufactured out of specs in the first place and then to suit them we started manufacturing out of spec ammunition.
These theories become more probable when we take a closer look at SLR; despite being just another FAL it's different from others. It uses elements from both "inch pattern" and "millimetre pattern" FALs.

As for the exported ammunition, it started very recently. Moreover, it's a NATO spec ammunition with imported powder.

As for the maintenance part, in armies we don't have this concept of x rifle needs more maintenance than y rifle. It's more of x army focuses more on maintenance than y army.
A soldier in any good army is required to clean his or her rifle after each session at range; no matter if it's an AK or 716.
 

Kuldeepm952

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Both MAG and FAL were made in India. So despite being a copy there is a fair chance that those were tweaked to suit Indian ammunition. Or perhaps those itself were manufactured out of specs in the first place and then to suit them we started manufacturing out of spec ammunition.
These theories become more probable when we take a closer look at SLR; despite being just another FAL it's different from others. It uses elements from both "inch pattern" and "millimetre pattern" FALs.

As for the exported ammunition, it started very recently. Moreover, it's a NATO spec ammunition with imported powder.

As for the maintenance part, in armies we don't have this concept of x rifle needs more maintenance than y rifle. It's more of x army focuses more on maintenance than y army.
A soldier in any good army is required to clean his or her rifle after each session at range; no matter if it's an AK or 716.
Any idea why this ammo issue is coming at all, logically Sigs should have been tested extensively with in service ammo considering that local ammo quality remains same. If not logic dictates that there should not be any issue at all unless IA present ammo stock differs highly in performance which is a major issue and major procurement quality flaw for any army in the world or it had long decided to procure new ammo for Sigs which is not performing well. Or maybe soldiers are just using company level MMG ammo as they hardly know the diff.

Anyway such issues should not come now, haven't we already had many ammo issues in past as well, for how long will this continue. Hopefully we should be seeing the diversification of ammo supply for IA soon enough as many private cos have entered. Surprisingly even OFB have hold hands with Nammo.
 
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Lonewarrior

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Any idea why this ammo issue is coming at all, logically Sigs should have been tested extensively with in service ammo considering that local ammo quality remains same. If not logic dictates that there should not be any issue at all unless IA present ammo stock differs highly in performance which is a major issue and major procurement quality flaw for any army in the world or it had long decided to procure new ammo for Sigs which is not performing well. Or maybe soldiers are just using company level MMG ammo as they hardly know the diff.

Anyway such issues should not come now, haven't we already had many ammo issues in past as well, for how long will this continue.
Enjoy...

 

GLD1980

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So is it the rifle or the Ammo? If the SIG was using NATO spec ammo would you still have a problem?

If not, it sounds like your ammo is seriously the issue. Good luck fellas.
 

Kuldeepm952

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Bhai samajh gya ab ache se, matlab ga*nd fati padi h. Yha puri daal hi kaali h.
Holy sh*t, even AK ammo is imported, overall seems a lil bit exaggerated but even if half is true, then RIP in war.
Hopefull SSS, SMPP, solar munitions and other cos start getting orders soon.
 

vishnugupt

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Bhai samajh gya ab ache se, matlab ga*nd fati padi h. Yha puri daal hi kaali h.
Holy sh*t, even AK ammo is imported, overall seems a lil bit exaggerated but even if half is true, then RIP in war.
Hopefull SSS, SMPP, solar munitions and other cos start getting orders soon.
How easily they fooling you.

This is a blatant lie India import AK ammunition. This tweet is an excuse to import Ammunition for Sig riffle and make India dependent for bullets.

Instead of admitting mistakes UN generals propagating lies.

Now UN generals are planning another RFI for 5.56*45 carbine which will also need imported ammunition.
 

GLD1980

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How easily they fooling you.

This is a blatant lie India import AK ammunition. This tweet is an excuse to import Ammunition for Sig riffle and make India dependent for bullets.

Instead of admitting mistakes UN generals propagating lies.

Now UN generals are planning another RFI for 5.56*45 carbine which will also need imported ammunition.
I know there were probably better options than the 716I for India but compared to what you had and the shit they could have gotten you it's a great rifle.

What is it that the Soldiers want...?
A completely different weapon system?
Ammo that functions properly in the 716I?
Or do you wish that the entire rifle and ammo contract should be made in India?
 

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