Indian Army: News and Discussion

Deathstar

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Great food for thought

Good read, first point of criticism is unfortunately not just limited to the armed forces but to entire country.
I agree overwhelming with the 2nd point , somewhat not with the 3rd.
And with the counter insurgency point , i felt it rubbed him off when failures of US CT ops were mentioned.
Overall very nice article
 

12arya

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Good read, first point of criticism is unfortunately not just limited to the armed forces but to entire country.
I agree overwhelming with the 2nd point , somewhat not with the 3rd.
And with the counter insurgency point , i felt it rubbed him off when failures of US CT ops were mentioned.
Overall very nice article
ya, that's what i felt too; he was trying to defend the US! And the whole liberal weeping of Kashmir mein rape and murder also was the reason i couldn't fully accept it as an objective read. It pretty rich coming from the US trying to lecture us on HR. what we do in Kashmir pales in comparison to what the US did in war-torn regions or their Guantanamo bay. I find the US moral policing us on Kashmir, to be most revolting!
 

shade

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ya, that's what i felt too; he was trying to defend the US! And the whole liberal weeping of Kashmir mein rape and murder also was the reason i couldn't fully accept it as an objective read. It pretty rich coming from the US trying to lecture us on HR. what we do in Kashmir pales in comparison to what the US did in war-torn regions or their Guantanamo bay. I find the US moral policing us on Kashmir, to be most revolting!
It is a racial trait of the white man since 500 years to lecture the "inferior races" on morality and civilization while turning a blind eye to their own sins, which may be much worse than what the "inferior races" commit.
They were hard-right 100 years ago, they are liberal f4gs now, but this condescending behavior remains the same still.
The white has no right to lecture us about anything.
 

rkhanna

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ya, that's what i felt too; he was trying to defend the US! And the whole liberal weeping of Kashmir mein rape and murder also was the reason i couldn't fully accept it as an objective read. It pretty rich coming from the US trying to lecture us on HR. what we do in Kashmir pales in comparison to what the US did in war-torn regions or their Guantanamo bay. I find the US moral policing us on Kashmir, to be most revolting!
Fair. But that is his perogative. But you are missing the forest for the trees.

Everything he says is debatable but also has a kernal of truth.
 

rkhanna

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The white has no right to lecture us about anything
If we sit wjth our ego. Point out fault in others to reduce the credibility of what they say. Harp on our 6000 year old history. We learn nothing.
 

shade

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If we sit wjth our ego. Point out fault in others to reduce the credibility of what they say. Harp on our 6000 year old history. We learn nothing.
Ok, we have an army of rapist cowards, all should be tried by the Hague for war crimes etc, Happy?
For people like you anything against India is 100% credible and worth "learning" from.
Anything pro-India is "debatable".

My post was specifically about the moral self-righteous hypocrisy of the whites, they have logs in their own eyes but behave like they are saints and go about lecturing foreign countries.
 

rkhanna

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Ok, we have an army of rapist cowards, all should be tried by the Hague for war crimes etc, Happy?
For people like you anything against India is 100% credible and worth "learning" from.
Anything pro-India is "debatable".

My post was specifically about the moral self-righteous hypocrisy of the whites, they have logs in their own eyes but behave like they are saints and go about lecturing foreign countries.
How do you know anything about me? Or what I think about my country?

You have take one point out of many he made and are now driving the discussion to what both you and me can agree is drivel, completely sidestepping the main reason of my posting ghe article on this thread.
 

ezsasa

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Great food for thought

For me Stimson centre itself is a big red flag, they have been promotors of paki narrative on capitol hill for years now. if i am to base my assessment considering this info, i would say if i am CCP and i want to prevent U.S and India forces from joining hands in asia, stimson centre would be one of my go to tools. This is similar to recent chapter written by Ashley tellis for US Army war college where he inserted Hindu nationalism commentary into what was supposed to be a purely military assessment on Indian military strengths.

These pieces are designed to leave a bad taste in the mind of a U.S reader. But when push comes to shove, U.S military leadership will throw all these morality & ideology arguments into dustbin, since they have a history of collaborating with anyone who suits the purpose of the day.
 

Okabe Rintarou

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Great food for thought

Dude, I respect your desire to examine problems within Indian Army and face some hard questions so that we can overcome them. But in this case, the Colonel David Smith whose comments you are depending on is a Pakistani shill.
This guy gave a talk in Stimson Center about this same book. Have a look:-

In case you are not convinced, he gave another talk in Wilson Center about the Pakistan Army "The Quetta Experience":-

Watch him speak about both Indian Army and Pakistan Army. Read between the lines. You'll recognize the actual source of his words.

For such a compromised source, we can't really depend on his analysis because we can't know where in his words, the kernel of truth ends and where the subversion begins.


Good read, first point of criticism is unfortunately not just limited to the armed forces but to entire country.
I agree overwhelming with the 2nd point , somewhat not with the 3rd.
And with the counter insurgency point , i felt it rubbed him off when failures of US CT ops were mentioned.
Overall very nice article
You took the words right out of my mouth. But what I find strange about this interview is the fact that the interviewer asked him only about the commonalities between Indian Army and Pakistan Army, not the differences, which should have followed. This was an email interview, so the questions were sent preformed.
 
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Okabe Rintarou

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For me Stimson centre itself is a big red flag, they have been promotors of paki narrative on capitol hill for years now. if i am to base my assessment considering this info, i would say if i am CCP and i want to prevent U.S and India forces from joining hands in asia, stimson centre would be one of my go to tools. This is similar to recent chapter written by Ashley tellis for US Army war college where he inserted Hindu nationalism commentary into what was supposed to be a purely military assessment on Indian military strengths.

These pieces are designed to leave a bad taste in the mind of a U.S reader. But when push comes to shove, U.S military leadership will throw all these morality & ideology arguments into dustbin, since they have a history of collaborating with anyone who suits the purpose of the day.
This guy, Colonel Smith, works at Stimson. And your favourite Kugleman is moderating the pannel on "The Quetta Experience".
 

12arya

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Fair. But that is his perogative. But you are missing the forest for the trees.

Everything he says is debatable but also has a kernal of truth.
I understand y u posted it here and plz don't take this as a personal attack and u r someone whom i respect a lot. This is wat i think abt the study and not about u. And im not part of the response btw u and the other members here.

No, I'm not bro, I accept his fair points; yes we need an upgrade. CDS shud be given real power and also the theatre commands shud be done and maybe we r failures at countering terror, agree on his part abt the inability to question something. I accept all that.

But I completely disagree on his rant on Kashmir rapes and tortures.

Kashmir was a political issue and a political decision came only recently; it had nothing to do with the military tactic.

Yes, rapes have happened, yes soldiers have misbehaved. Also, if they have raped give them the highest punishment; but it's unjust to tag them all as rapists and such! What I don't agree is on his sanctimonious tone.

Unlike, the US army, we don't bomb our way thru Kashmir. Didn't we suffer such high casualty thanx to Kashmiris first policy? Any other state or populace is/was ever given the kind of leeway that Kashmiris were given?

1605100132138.png

Were pandits ever given a fair chance to get even minimum justice? Does he got something to say abt the exodus? No. Not a word. This kind of selective outrage is what I found off-putting in his "study".

Army has gone above and beyond with sadbhavana and what not with Kashmiris. To tag us as some kind of naziz is what I can't accept.
 

12arya

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The Truth about Rising Defence Pensions
Lt Gen Prakash Katoch

There is considerable commotion in media over the rising defence pension outlay which has touched Rs 1.33 lakh crore. There are headlines like “General Rawat Favours Pension Cut, Colonial Bungalows to go Away” as if the two are connected and auction of colonial bungalows will supplement pension bill, defence budget or money for managing cantonments – which will never happen as proceeds will go into union coffers as clarified by the defence minister, now heading Ministry of Finance (MoF). That being a separate issue, rising defence pension outlay no doubt is cause for serious concern.

The hullabaloo is more because of OROP. Not only was OROP granted in 2014 actually a one-time increment in pensions, the BJP-government has gone back on its promise of revision after five years, which was due in 2019. Grounds are being prepared to deny OROP altogether because the Supreme Court has set March 24 for final decision on OROP. Government has been portraying OROP as officer related issue which is obfuscation in the extreme. But what is the truth about rising defence pension outlay?

Ever wondered why the pension bill of civilian-defence employees is not mentioned separately in successive annual demands by the Ministry of Defence (MoD) and eventual allocation? The reason is deliberate – share of civilian-defence pensioners is very high despite smaller numbers compared to military veterans. In MoD’s annual Revenue Budget demands, salaries of Service Personal, Auxiliary TA and civilians are shown separately, but under Pensions, all categories are deliberately clubbed together. More ambiguity is created by stating civilian defence employees are on Natioanl Pension System (NPS).

NPS was to be implemented for civilian-defence employees from 2004 but there is large number pensioner who retired before 2004. Contribution during service remains 10% for NPS but government contribution was hiked from 10% to 14% of employee pay plus dearness allowance in July 2017 – GoI F No. 20/07/2017-PR signed by Under Secretary Abhay Garg in his letter to All India Defence Employees Federation dated March 18, 2019. The same letter of July 2017 also promised: payment of compensation for non-deposit of NPS contribution during 2004-2012; providing tax deduction to contributions made under Tier-II NPS up to 1.5 lakhs, and; increase in tax exemption for lump-sum withdrawal on exit from 40% to 60% making total withdrawal exempt from IT.

Civilian-defence employees have continued to enjoy NFU and those retiring before 2004 also received OROP with annual actualization, while military is denied both. All this meant higher pay and pensions for civilian-defence employees and larger government contribution in NPS, in addition to faster promotions. But expansion and upgrades were also engineered with cunning

Restructuring of AFHQ-CS under MoD was done by misrepresenting facts to government; posts of seven new principal directors, in addition to the four existing ones, and 36 new directors were sanctioned without any functional requirement expressed by the military. Army representation saying, “Creation of these unwanted/surplus posts is not only a violation of PMO’s directive on ‘minimum government and maximum governance’, but also a drain on public funds and recurring loss to the state” was ignored despite the restructuring also creating functional problems.

Defence Estate (DE), whose disbandment was recommended by CGDA in 2010 citing it most corrupt part of MoD, was empowered further and granted NFU with retrospect from 2016 by Defence Minister (now FM) Nirmala Sitharaman concurrent to her drive to take over defence land. Section Officer (SO) Entry was stopped by government in Central Secretariat Group B cadre in 2003 based on recommendations of a government-appointed committee. AFHQ-CS instead of discontinuing SO Entry, increased intake from 20% to 50% with AFHQ-CS officers attending meetings with DoPT and UPSC officials stating SO Entry is required by Service HQ without Service HQ even knowing about it. There were also reports that in these meetings sone AFHQ-CS officers faked as military officers.

41 Ordnance Factories have 200 plus Joint Secretary-level officers (Major General equivalent) while civilians in MES have 11 HAG-grade officers (Lieutenant General equivalent). Against 14.5 lakh Armed Forces personnel, there are 5.85 lakh civilian-defence employees – ridiculous ratio of 1:4 and on an average one serving or retired civilian-defence employee costs five times that of their military counterparts. MoD is loathe to reveal pension share of civilian-defence employees but considering the foregoing civilian-defence employees are likely consuming anything from 40% to 42% of overall defence pensions – civilian-defence pensioners being about 22% compared to some 78% military pensioners. MoD even spends more than Rs 1000 crore annually on pay and allowances of attached MoF personnel.

Yet the military is painted the villain and focus is on culling military veterans – even attacking categories of disability pensions while the CAPF, civil-defence employees and other government services continue to receive the same. The CDS is talking of increasing the service age to 58 which at best is stopgap with attendant pros and cons but who is to address the bloating civilian-defence budget?

Despite successive Central Pay Commissions and Parliament recommending transfer and absorption of military personnel after their military service into government organizations and departments where their unique skills, training, discipline and strengths can be optimally used, government has lacked the will due dependence on bureaucracy and obstruction by vested lobbies. The Defence Minister needs to take a call on this and alternatively examine establishing aan exclusive military veteran organization (MVO) for specific tasks. At the same time the Defence Minister would do well to examine this ridiculous ratio of 1:4 – 14.5 lakh military personnel against 5.85 lakh civilian-defence employees.

Combatizing civilian-defence employees is one option, the other being retiring military personnel at young age be given the option of TA-isation and serve in lieu of civilian-defence employees. MoF personnel attached with MoD earn deputation allowance and should be paid salary/ pension from MoF, not MoD. Moving the Department of Defence Production (DoPD) from MoD to the Ministry of Commerce and Industry has been projected by many scholars in the past. This has not happened because of the nexus between the MoD bureaucrats with the DRDO-DPSUs-OFB, because of which the governmental defence-industrial sector is in the current state with patchy success. Moving DoPD out would reduce the strain on the defence budget and improve efficiency. Similarly, with the CDS talking about veterans every second day, the Department of Ex-Servicemen (DESW) should be downsized and merged in the Department of Military Affairs.

The Defence Minister needs to stand up for the military for inclusion in Group ‘A’ services, NFU, allowances gone lower than CAPF, OROP and disability pensions. The belief that there will be no war has made the government look askance at the military. The J&K Allowance for military is far below that of CAPF and police. Same is the case of other allowances including the Siachen allowance vis-à-vis hazard allowance for CAPF/police at Leh or Guwahati – giving the impression that Armed Forces are considered necessary evil. Demonizing officers is downright idiotic given their proven record of sacrifices. Either NFU should be granted to Armed Forces or discontinued for other government services.

Recall in December 2017, Army Chief (now CDS) General Bipin Rawat had expressed alarm at apparent politicization of the Army saying that military should be kept away from politics. His statement held significance as 91.5% of officers engaged in counter-insurgency operations cited disgust for corrupt polity as a major reason for the slumping morale. The study ‘Psychological Aspects of Counter-Insurgency Operations’ published in the Armed Forces Medical Journal’ also said that 61.4% non-commissioned officers and soldiers cited the same reason for their low morale.

Veteran Major General Samay Ram writes in his book ‘Stress, Suicides and Fratricides in the Army’ that the “Army has to shoulder the main burden of not only containing the militancy but also of carrying out development work since the civil administration is either defunct or unwilling/reluctant to play its part of (sic) carrying out developmental work.”

Bearing down for cutting down on military’s pension must also be viewed in the backdrop of the move to hike pay 4-5 times of lower judiciary and the Prime Minister announcement in July 2019 of a Rs 3000 monthly pension benefiting three crore shopkeepers and traders who never retire and never cease to make profit many fold.

Little wonder a former Army Chief publicly stated that army is no more the preferred option for youth. Ignoring the ground truth would be tragic notwithstanding the rhetoric of a reporter asking a commander how is the josh and get the reply on expected lines that everything is tickety-boo.
 

12arya

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Sleeper cells in the army...Absolutely frightening!


UP Police, Military Intel Bust Army Recruitment Scam; ISI Involvement Suspected


In a shocking development, the UP Police along with the Military Intelligence (MI) has tracked down a racket that allegedly assisted several youths to get jobs in the army based on fake documents in the last two years, Times of India reports.

An ex-serviceman, two police officials and five others have been involved in this conspiracy. The investigating team suspects that Pakistan’s spy agency ISI or other anti-national elements might have inducted their men into the army through this racket. The retired soldier, one of the police officers and three other people have been arrested in this case.

The racket was active in four districts of UP and 21 people have landed jobs in the army through this method. The Intelligence Bureau (IB) has been roped in by the state police as the reverification process of all candidates who made it into the armed forces through this scam from January 2019.

“I have ordered reverification of all the successful candidates in Bareilly, Pilibhit, Budaun and Shahjahanpur. We have also asked the IB and other security agencies to join the investigation. I am monitoring the case and coordinating with all the agencies,” said Rajesh Pandey, DIG OF Bareilly range.

The five accused: Suresh Som, Hukum Singh, Paramveer Singh, Mukesh Kumar and police constable Manveer Singh were arrested from a rented apartment in Banda area, Shahjahanpur.

“Suresh Som was a havildar in 26 Rajput Regiment and retired in February 2010. Our Bareilly unit is thoroughly investigating the case with police. A separate internal investigation is also going on. The possibility of the involvement of anti-national groups like ISI cannot be ruled out as Som had leaked inside information to recruit the candidates on fake document,” stated an MI officer from Bareilly.

He said that the intelligence team is examining the antecedents of the concerned 21 candidates currently. However, he fears that the number of individuals who illegally benefited from this racket could shoot up as the investigation proceeds. Police constable Moolchand and an individual named Arvind Kumar are the other two accused and they are on the run as of now.

S Anand, senior superintendent of police (SSP) of Shahjahanpur, has revealed that the arrested police official Manveer Singh exploited his position and used to approve the fake documents of the candidates. “It is a very big scam. Data of 21 candidates, shortlisted in the army through fake documents and showing them as residents of Bareilly division, has been found so far,” the SSP said in a press conference.

Anand added, “We have seized 23 fake stamps of government offices and village heads. Several forged mark-sheets and other fake documents were also recovered from the accused. We are trying to find out the total number of candidates who were recruited through fraudulent means. This is a matter related to national security and no one will be spared.”

The SSP further declared, “One of the accused constables, Manveer, had accepted a bribe of Rs 52,000 from the accused for the verification of a candidate. The accused were getting huge amounts of money for the recruitment. The involvement of ISI or some other anti-national forces behind this racket cannot be denied.”
 

ezsasa

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We don't know if IA purchased the full set of ECWCS, but this video seems to show the full set issued to U.S army.
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US Army Extended Cold Weather Clothing System (ECWCS) and how Soldiers actually use it
 

rkhanna

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We don't know if IA purchased the full set of ECWCS, but this video seems to show the full set issued to U.S army.
===========
US Army Extended Cold Weather Clothing System (ECWCS) and how Soldiers actually use it
The Source is idrw . Suggest looking for MOD press releases
 

Shashank Nayak

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Thats why I said or I should have said it is a politically corrupt stunt, show the country you’re buying AK-203 and you end up buying semi modified AK-103 for the Army but you’ll ask votes for AK-203.
Nope.. it does not matter if Modi gave Army AK 103 OR AK 203..he will still get the most votes..
 

12arya

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Guided Pinaka nearing completion: The lethal rocket system India has deployed at its Pak, China borders.
The Guided Pinaka is the next step in the weapon platform's evolution turning it from a rocket system into a missile system that will, reportedly, help reduce collateral damage.


The Guided Pinaka weapons system being tested in Chandipur, Odisha.

The Guided Pinaka weapons system being tested in Chandipur, Odisha. | Photo Credit: Twitter

Key Highlights
  • In August, the Ministry of Defence announced that it had entered into contracts with Bharat Earth Movers Ltd, Tata Power Company Ltd and Larsen & Toubro for the acquisition of the six additional Pinaka Regiments

  • Capable of firing 12 rockets within just 40 seconds, a single battery of six launchers can raze to the ground an area roughly spanning 1000 meters by 800 meters

  • Tests for the Guided Pinaka were conducted in March and December 2019
India's indigenously-developed Pinaka rocket system has been the DRDO's focus of attention over the last week. In August, the Indian Army announced that it was planning to raise an additional six regiments of the system, and last week the DRDO successfully test-fired its Enhanced Pinaka Mk-1. Now, officials from the DRDO have noted that the development of the Guided version of the Pinaka, with nearly double the original range, is close to completion.

Named after Lord Shiva's bow, the Pinaka was first conceptualised as far back as 1981 in response to the Indian Army's need for a long-range artillery weapons system. After encountering some roadblocks, development of the system began in 1986 with a budget of Rs 26.47 crore.

The system proved its effectiveness during the 1999 Kargil War and has since undergone several upgrades, with a dedicated Pinaka Multi-barrel rocket launcher (MBRL) regiment raised in 2000. In August, the Ministry of Defence announced that it had entered into contracts with Bharat Earth Movers Ltd, Tata Power Company Ltd and Larsen & Toubro for the acquisition of the six additional Pinaka Regiments at a reported cost of Rs 2,580 crore.

What gives Pinaka its edge?
As an MBRL, the Pinaka weapon system is comprised of six launcher vehicles, each carrying 12 rockets accompanied by six loader-replenishment vehicles, two command post vehicles equipped with a fire control computer and a DIGICORA MET radar. Each of the launchers can work autonomously and is controlled by a separate computer.

The launch system is made up of two pods mounted side-by-side on Tatra launcher vehicle. The launcher has the capability to fire all its rockets simultaneously, or individually in different directions. It can operate in autonomous, standalone, remote or manual mode.

Pinaka's rockets can also be fitted with a whole range of warheads from pre-fragmented high explosives, to anti-tank bomblets, to anti-tank minelet warheads, to anti-personnel mines. The pre-fragmented warhead is said to cause around 25 to 30 per cent more damage to enemy targes than conventional warheads.
Capable of firing 12 rockets within just 40 seconds, a single battery of six launchers can raze to the ground an area roughly spanning 1000 meters by 800 meters. The original version of the Pinaka – Mark 1- had a range of 40km. However, the upgraded Mark II version can fire rockets up to distances of 70 and 80 km.

The Guided Pinaka system has a reported range of 75km, along with an integrated navigation, control and guidance system to improve precision and extend its range. The navigation system is aided by the Indian Regional Navigation Satellite System (IRNSS).

Tests for the Guided Pinaka were conducted in March and December 2019. The new system is the next step in the Pinaka's evolution turning it from a rocket system into a missile system that will, reportedly, help reduce collateral damage.

The Indian Army plans to use the Pinaka Mk-1, the enhanced Mk-1 as well as the Guided Pinaka as part of its artillery arsenal.
 

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