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Okabe Rintarou

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So pinakas won't be in artillery now?
WTF are we doing? What about Theater Commands? So what now? A Theater Commander has to phone up C-in-C Missile Command to get a fcukin' time critical interdiction done? The entire idea behind theater commands was to ensure that we don't do the integration in wartime, rather we do it in peacetime.
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Please tell me this is not an operational "Command" but an administrative construct? Please?
 

binayak95

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WTF are we doing? What about Theater Commands? So what now? A Theater Commander has to phone up C-in-C Missile Command to get a fcukin' time critical interdiction done? The entire idea behind theater commands was to ensure that we don't do the integration in wartime, rather we do it in peacetime.
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Please tell me this is not an operational "Command" but an administrative construct? Please?
Arreh yeh Wolven Analysis ke baaton pe matt nacho.

All operational taskings will be under theatre commands with dedicated units of all types attached there in, inclusive of long range indirect fire.
 

phndr

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WTF are we doing? What about Theater Commands? So what now? A Theater Commander has to phone up C-in-C Missile Command to get a fcukin' time critical interdiction done? The entire idea behind theater commands was to ensure that we don't do the integration in wartime, rather we do it in peacetime.
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Please tell me this is not an operational "Command" but an administrative construct? Please?
It is supposed to be Indian equivalent to Chinese PLA Rocket Force. Bipin Rawat mooted this one year ago before his untimely demise. What needs to be seen is how the new CDS will raise it this time, whether as a separate military command or as a military fighting branch (like PLARF).

Obviously the Theater Commander will have operational command over all units allotted to his command.


 
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Okabe Rintarou

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It is supposed to be Indian equivalent to Chinese PLA Rocket Force. Bipin Rawat mooted this one year ago before his untimely demise. What needs to be seen is how the new CDS will raise it this time, whether as a separate military command or as a military fighting branch (like PLARF).

Obviously the Theater Commander will have operational command over all units allotted to his command.


This is folly and I wrote about it back then:-

I seriously hope they don't mean a fourth service arm. What now? Army-Navy-AirForce-RocketForce? That would be beyond stupid. If they go ahead with that, I'd completely lose my confidence in current military leadership.

A new force is required when a new domain of warfare opens up. So we can have a Space Force or a Cyber Force, as those are new domains. But a Rocket Force? Thinking of something this retarded would require one to snort some ganja. Yes snort, not smoke. Deep artillery strikes are almost the same as air interdiction and neither of these are a new "domain" of warfare.

So assuming that they don't mean a new force, and only mean a new tri-services organization, lets dive into the reasons for the IRF as espoused by the article:-
  1. Reason 1: As a symmetric counter to PLARF, to embrace stand-off warfare.
    • Having a systematic counter to an enemy capability can be accomplished without copying the enemy's exact command structure.
    • IAF, IN and IA already have embraced stand-off warfare. The modernization is the limiting factor, not doctrinal inertia.
    • Naturally, commanders on the ground have to stay grounded to reality. The reality is that Indian Armed Forces don't have a lot of stand-off weaponry in stock. Which forces ground commanders to not take rely on this capability in their plans too often.
  2. Reason 2: To centralize them under one C2, instead of having them distributed across services.
    • Fair reason, but is it practical?
    • Will one organization decide the number of missiles procured for Navy ships or Air Force jets? No. Only missiles fired from ground based SSM launchers will be decided by this organization.
    • Which ground based missile launchers don't fall under the Army? The Coastal Defence Batteries of the Navy and the Air Force's missile units.
    • So isn't the obvious solution of the problem to put all ground-based SSM launchers under command of the Army? But nope, because turf wars. Bull$hit! We are creating theater commands, if we still can't resolve turf wars over such issues, theaterization itself is unlikely to succeed since it entails more turf wars than just one SSM launcher control issue.
  3. Reason 3: Indian Army's concept of depth of Operational Area is less.
    • Seriously? You create a new force for this?
    • Can be simply done by placing all SSM units under the theater commander, if you are that concerned about lower level commanders at Corps or Div level not having ISR assets to persecute targets that deep behind the front. Or are you telling me that the Theater Commander wouldn't have that depth perception? In that case, prepare the white flag, we aren't winning in that case.
  4. Reason 4: An Indian Rocket Force can help fosterenforce Theaterization
    • My God! Are we in such dire straits that we now have to resort to such methods to resolve turf wars?
    • Is the current CDS unable to implement his mandate otherwise?
    • If we have use such tricks to force the three services to work together, we had better drop the idea of Jointness altogether.
    • A similar concept was created in Andaman Nicobar Command, thinking it would "foster jointness". Did jack all in real life. So if we do this "Rocket Force" nonsense to "foster theaterization", it would be similarly ineffective.
  5. Reason 5: "A section of the bureaucracy remains skeptical about investing beyond a point in what it sees as “fixed assets,” i.e. vectors that it believes can only ever be used in a major war"
    • Really? I don't see well-equipped Infantry and Special Forces despite the fact that they are used even in peacetime, let alone wartime. If the babus really believe the aforementioned reason, then why is the average Infantry soldier still walking around in a flak jacket?
    • If we have to change military administrative and oeprational structures due to whims of babus who've never attended a single military course (yeah I notice the irony), then we had better stop thinking about military reforms and reform the babus first instead.
If you really truly want a doctrinal shift and focus on a Rocket Force, what really needs to happen is all ground-launched SSM beyond a specific range be removed from the administrative control of the Regiment of Artillery, Air Force and Naval Coastal Batteries and place them in a separate "Regiment of Missiles". A clear range needs to be defined for this, probably should be the range beyond the operational depth considered by a Corps during planning. Position of MLRS needs to be made clear. And then, the Theater Commander needs to be granted control of the assets of the Regiment of Missiles in his theater, and he needs to place these assets under another commander in the Theater HQ that looks after ALL deep strikes beyond a Corps' depth perception.

When I say "ALL", I mean that one commander (who reports directly to the Theater Commander) should be responsible for planning not just precision fires from SSMs, but also Air Interdicition and any long range drone swarm strikes. As a result he will work closely with the Theater SEAD/DEAD offense planner and the Theater level ISR assets. There will be a turf war between Air Force and Army for this position. To avoid that give this position to an Air Force officer and create a similar position for Close Air Support (called Battlefield Air Support in Indian parlance) and give that position to an Army Officer.
WTF? Why? I seriously hope that Gen Rawat's statement was taken out of context. I almost can't believe he would do this. Maybe he said something along the lines of "We are also developing our Rocket Forces to counter China's PLARF".
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I don't see any reason for separating Rocket Artillery and Missile Units from the Regiment of Artillery. These assets are already concentrated in Artillery Divisions. They need similar SATA assets, which again falls under Regiment of Artillery. So what now? Are we going to separate Guns and Rockets/Missiles and SATA as well into different Arms of the Army? Even if he is envisaging a doctrinal shift, there is no need for separate Arms. He can simply raise Artillery Formations that are all Rocket Heavy and are available to each IBG, maybe in form of a Composite Rocket Battalion with two batteries of Pinaka and one battery of Smerch/Pinaka 2. Make it part of the Artillery brigade of each IBG.
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What purpose does this achieve?
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No not Armoured Corps. Rocket Arty is part of Regiment of Artillery. Mostly found in our four Artillery Divisions.
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What Soviets did was termed "manuever by fire." Indian Army does the same using its Artillery Divisions that are heavy on Rocket and Missile assets. No need for a separate force.
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Just raise dedicated Rocket Artillery or Missile formations tied to long range SATA assets for counter-battery against the PLA Rocket Force. No need to create own separate Rocket Force even if we acquire 100 new Rocket Regiments for this.
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PLA having a separate Rocket Force is mostly a legacy issue for them. Would be foolish to blindly copy. More importantly, we need a separate Command (forget having a separate force) for Special Operations, Cyber and Space. Right now we only got agencies for these. That is where the priorities should lie.
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Just to clarify, "Agency" means headed by a 2-star rank, "Command" means headed by 3-Star rank and "Force" means headed by a Four Star rank (Basically a new Service Branch). Which is why when the tweet quotes General Rawat as saying "a new dedicated Rocket Force", I think its something taken out of context. General Rawat would have to be crazy to suggest an "Indian Rocket Force" as a new Service Arm of the Indian Armed Forces.

Thankfully, I was partially correct that it won't be a new "Force", but a Command doesn't make me feel happy either. Unless, its as you say that the Theater Commander will have operational control while the so-called "Missile Command" takes care of administration, procurement, capability planning and doctrinal evolution, readiness and training, etc.
 

Knowitall

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IFVs of Dot on Target Division practice floatation and canal crossing with full battle load.
View attachment 174074View attachment 174075View attachment 174076View attachment 174077
Kharga Sappers are carrying out bridging practice with the state of art indigenous Sarvatra Assault Bridge in high altitude terrain of Ladakh.
View attachment 174078View attachment 174079View attachment 174080View attachment 174081
I hope we replace these tin cans called BMP's ASAP or else we are in for a rude awakening.
 

karn

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This is folly and I wrote about it back then:-


Thankfully, I was partially correct that it won't be a new "Force", but a Command doesn't make me feel happy either. Unless, its as you say that the Theater Commander will have operational control while the so-called "Missile Command" takes care of administration, procurement, capability planning and doctrinal evolution, readiness and training, etc.
A positive is that this will remove duplication of effort between IA and IAF
 

NutCracker

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My mama used to work there.. Jabalpur has Ordinance factory , Vehicle factory , Topkhana factory and Ordinance Depot too.. Dont know why they dont pay proper attention to such city. Always being ignored.
 

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