Indian Army Artillery

Okabe Rintarou

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We are poor country saar .. titanium is almost 100X the cost of steel. Oh and dat titanium tooling...
Would cost us 50% more per gun compared to Dhanush, at most. That is all. Yeah, its mildly expensive, but looking at the advantages, it might even be a necessary expense given how it simplifies war wastage reserves while increasing firepower of mountain arty.

And its not like every 105 needs to be replaced by 155 ULH either. Earlier Army had to rely on 105 a lot because the infrastructure was extremely poor. Now we are deploying 155mm SPGs like K9 in Ladakh, the need for 155 ULH, especially after M777 will be minimal.

FARP itself slated the need for 155 ULH to be 145 that was fulfilled by M777 deal. So its not as if Army didn't plan for all this. They properly sat and planned this stuff decades ago when the infrastructure that has now been built was being planned.

BTW, when I searched google for Dhanush cost:-
temp meme.png


Side note-
This is why im skeptical on any hypersonic one use weapon... all these will use titanium and will probably bankrupt any country that tries to stock these up in numbers.
??? Titainium is a common aerospace metal regardless. Its not especially related to hypersonic missiles. Those temperatures need ceramic composites.

They probably mean getting rid of the soviet 122s and 130s.. More like a rationalization of medium artillery.
No. FARP was clear that 105 was also to be replaced by 155 wholesale.
 

karn

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Would cost us 50% more per gun compared to Dhanush, at most. That is all. Yeah, its mildly expensive, but looking at the advantages, it might even be a necessary expense given how it simplifies war wastage reserves while increasing firepower of mountain arty.

And its not like every 105 needs to be replaced by 155 ULH either. Earlier Army had to rely on 105 a lot because the infrastructure was extremely poor. Now we are deploying 155mm SPGs like K9 in Ladakh, the need for 155 ULH, especially after M777 will be minimal.

FARP itself slated the need for 155 ULH to be 145 that was fulfilled by M777 deal. So its not as if Army didn't plan for all this. They properly sat and planned this stuff decades ago when the infrastructure that has now been built was being planned.

BTW, when I searched google for Dhanush cost:-
View attachment 173519

The initial deal for 114 guns is expected to cost around Rs.1,600 crore.
India ordered 145 howitzers from the US for $750 million in November 2016.
Not even close .. m777 is true gucci stuff.

BTW, when I searched google for Dhanush cost:-
View attachment 173519
Lolz
 

karn

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??? Titainium is a common aerospace metal regardless. Its not especially related to hypersonic missiles. Those temperatures need ceramic composites.
Perhaps we can take this to another thread ..
The actual heat shield will probably be a carbon carbon ceramic like the agni nose cone but the strength structure will have to be titanium .. steel is too heavy and aluminum will just catch fire.
 

Okabe Rintarou

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Not even close .. m777 is true gucci stuff.


Lolz
M777 for US Army would cost around $3.5 Million. So a domestic Kalyani ULH for us would cost maybe around $3 Million. Dhanush is $2 Million. Not that big a difference.
But more importantly, we won't need a 1:1 replacement of 105 by ULH due to infra upgrades, as I mentioned previously.
 

Rajaraja Chola

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K9s were procured for plains and deserts (western front). In 2020 we tried out K9s in Ladakh (there were multiple firing trials), and found out they are pretty good there as well, and given China's conventional superiority in Ladakh, made it a necessity to deploy them there.

ATAGS, (or any other towed artillery in the Indian Army) is expected to perform on both plains and the Himalayas. While I am aware of excessive trials of ATAGS and in no way giving a free pass to the Indian Army, it makes little sense to pick up every small matter and twist it to look like corruption.

Also, 300 K9s are utterly inadequate. We should be moving towards more SPH not towed artilleries. We need at least 500 to balance both Pakistan and China. But I guess we will see more emergency purchases when the hell breaks loose finally.
Plan is 300.
 

karn

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M777 for US Army would cost around $3.5 Million. So a domestic Kalyani ULH for us would cost maybe around $3 Million. Dhanush is $2 Million. Not that big a difference.
But more importantly, we won't need a 1:1 replacement of 105 by ULH due to infra upgrades, as I mentioned previously.
Dhanush is more like 1.3 million no ?
Anyways ..
Who does not want this



And .. 105s can be airlifted by mil 17s .
On the titanium point ... our steel industry is way more developed than the titanium one.. I'm sure there is a cost to getting the kalyani 155 ulh ready (we have not yet seen a kalyani ULH speak yet).. A cost that will ultimately reflect in the per unit cost surely.
 

Johny_Baba

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All the indegiously developed artillery in one frame.

Row wise
1. ATAGS
2. ULH
3. OFB Truck Mounted Dhaunsh/Dhanush on Wheels
4.Garuda 105
5.Bharat 52


View attachment 173581
more,
DRDO's truck mounted 105mm, it's just IFG 105mm on a Truck but yeah 🤷‍♂️
1664386525015.png


MGS 155mm/39 Cal truck mounted gun from Baba Kalyani
1664386611179.png
 

another_armchair

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OFB and DRDO did a copy pasta of the Bofors 155/39 and morphed it into Dhanush(Bofors) 155/45.

What would it take to make a Bofors 155/52 and standardize it instead of going incrementally up the ladder?

We have the original designs which were part of the deal with Bofors. With more than one player showcasing capability in the big guns arena, the time is ripe instead of going through the rigmarole of test-reject-test-reject float RFI ... test .. push for G2G deal unless it suits the agenda of a certain bunch of people.
 

karn

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OFB and DRDO did a copy pasta of the Bofors 155/39 and morphed it into Dhanush(Bofors) 155/45.

What would it take to make a Bofors 155/52 and standardize it instead of going incrementally up the ladder?

We have the original designs which were part of the deal with Bofors. With more than one player showcasing capability in the big guns arena, the time is ripe instead of going through the rigmarole of test-reject-test-reject float RFI ... test .. push for G2G deal unless it suits the agenda of a certain bunch of people.
Umm atags ? It's not incremental .. The ability to have a larger chamber is significant. The only system that outranges the atags is an american SPH that will probably stick its barrel in the dirt if it went over a speed bump.

Extended_Range_Cannon_Artillery_(ERCA)_during_a_test_March_30_at_U.S._Army_Yuma_Proving_Ground.jpg
 

another_armchair

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Umm atags ? It's not incremental .. The ability to have a larger chamber is significant. The only system that outranges the atags is an american SPH that will probably stick its barrel in the dirt if it went over a speed bump.

View attachment 173588
My take was instead of FH-77B clone in 155/45, they could've attempted a 155/52 cal and ended the entire debate. They had the drawings and designs in place. All it required was funds from Gobermint to take this project to its logical conclusion.

But but... they chose the ATAGS path and the end user is dragging their feet over the project and eyeing the Elbit Athos.

It resulted in a lose-lose for us when we are staring at the possibility of a 2 front war and our mil-ind complex is far from top-notch for any such eventually with reserves barely in a position to supplement a SNAFU 'all hands on the deck' moment.

Apologies if my post was phrased poorly. Blame it on my poor knowledge of the English language.
 

Aditya Ballal

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My take was instead of FH-77B clone in 155/45, they could've attempted a 155/52 cal and ended the entire debate. They had the drawings and designs in place. All it required was funds from Gobermint to take this project to its logical conclusion.

But but... they chose the ATAGS path and the end user is dragging their feet over the project and eyeing the Elbit Athos.

It resulted in a lose-lose for us when we are staring at the possibility of a 2 front war and our mil-ind complex is far from top-notch for any such eventually with reserves barely in a position to supplement a SNAFU 'all hands on the deck' moment.

Apologies if my post was phrased poorly. Blame it on my poor knowledge of the English language.
Prototype of a 52 caliber Dhanush already exists
1664389560268.jpeg
1664389574289.jpeg
1664389588673.jpeg
 

karn

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My take was instead of FH-77B clone in 155/45, they could've attempted a 155/52 cal and ended the entire debate. They had the drawings and designs in place. All it required was funds from Gobermint to take this project to its logical conclusion.

But but... they chose the ATAGS path and the end user is dragging their feet over the project and eyeing the Elbit Athos.

It resulted in a lose-lose for us when we are staring at the possibility of a 2 front war and our mil-ind complex is far from top-notch for any such eventually with reserves barely in a position to supplement a SNAFU 'all hands on the deck' moment.

Apologies if my post was phrased poorly. Blame it on my poor knowledge of the English language.
I think us common folk are unaware of the testing procedure in any military.
1. I honestly believe that the press releases about test being conducted successfully "with all parameters met"
are lies .. I have literally never heard of a press release going like .. "xyz" was found wanting in the test so not completely successful. (except that barrel bursting which was only revealed later)
2. These long drawn testing phase is normal in any military. The american M1299 howitzer is speaking right now .. but the americans don't expect service induction before 2024.
3. I think the mango people would be shocked by how long it takes for "testing" of a simple family car hatchback .
 
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Blademaster

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My take was instead of FH-77B clone in 155/45, they could've attempted a 155/52 cal and ended the entire debate. They had the drawings and designs in place. All it required was funds from Gobermint to take this project to its logical conclusion.

But but... they chose the ATAGS path and the end user is dragging their feet over the project and eyeing the Elbit Athos.

It resulted in a lose-lose for us when we are staring at the possibility of a 2 front war and our mil-ind complex is far from top-notch for any such eventually with reserves barely in a position to supplement a SNAFU 'all hands on the deck' moment.

Apologies if my post was phrased poorly. Blame it on my poor knowledge of the English language.
Drawings are not enough. You need expertise in metallurgy because when you increase the barrel length, the pressure changes and it has an effect on the barrel and you need experience in metallurgy to accommodate the changes in pressure. That's what Kalyani Bharat Forge brought to the table.
 

WolfPack86

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Indian Army plans to add 200 more K9-Vajra Artillery Guns

Indian Army is planning to initiate a process under which it plans to buy 200 more Made in India K-9 Thunder Self-Propelled tracked artillery guns. The Army has also planned to buy winter kits that are fine-tuned for winter climatic conditions along LAC in eastern ladakh.

According to news published by the Indian Defense Research Wing, this will be the second batch of orders that will be executed by the L&T as the army also has additional plans for a third batch order of 100 more guns. Indian Army has procured 100 units of South Korean K-9 Thunder Self-Propelled tracked artillery guns in 2017 that were all delivered in 2021, due to which production line of these guns has been lying idle since then.

The winter kits has nine components and systems that will allow it to withstand and operate in the icy winter conditions of the Eastern Ladakh since the original lot purchased earlier in the first batch was to be deployed on the western border in dry humid conditions of the Thar Desert.

On 25 March 2012, South Korean president Lee Myung-bak and the Indian Prime Minister, Manmohan Singh signed MOU to strengthen the economy and military exchanges. On 29 March 2012 at DEFEXPO, Samsung Techwin and Larsen & Toubro announced their partnership to produce the K9 Thunder in India. As per the agreement, Samsung Techwin will transfer key technologies, and the vehicle will be manufactured under license in India using 50 per cent of the domestic content such as FCS and communication system.

Two units of K9 were sent to Thar Desert, Rajasthan for firing and mobility test, and competed against Russian 2S19. Operated by Indian military personnel, the K9 fired 587 Indian ammunitions including Nub round and drove a total distance of 1,000 km. Maintenance test was conducted at Pune, EMI (electromagnetic interference) test at Chennai, and technical environment test was held in Bengaluru until March 2014. K9 Thunder achieved all ROC set by Indian military while the Russian counterpart failed to do so. Hanwha Techwin (previously Samsung Techwin) later told in an interview that the Russian engine performance dropped when the air density is low and in high temperature, the placement of the engine also resulted in the center of the mass located at the rear, making the vehicle difficult to climb high angles. On the other hand, K9 benefitted from automatic control system of the engine, providing the optimum performance based on given condition automatically—this was one of the decisive reason why India selected K9 over 2S19.

In September 2015, the Indian Ministry of Defense selected Hanwha Techwin and Larsen & Toubro as preferred bidder to supply 100 K9 Vajra-T to the Indian Army after K9 outperformed 2S19 Msta-S and passed two-year trial. On 6 July 2016, India agreed in purchasing 100 K9 Vajra-T for $750 million. On 29 March 2017, The Government of India approved budget of $646 million for purchasing 100 K9 Vajra-T. A formal contract of $310 million was signed between Hanwha Techwin and Larsen & Toubro in New Delhi on 21 April. Hanwha Techwin will supply first 10 K9 Vajra-T, and 90 will be license produced in India by Larsen & Toubro.

K9 Vajra-T consist 14 major Indian manufactured systems, 50% of component by value, which include Nub ammunition capable FCS and its storage, communication system, and environment control and NBC protection system. Additional systems were installed such as GPS (Gunner’s Primary Sight) for direct firing capability, and South African APU, which was proven for desert operation—Korean APU was under development phase during Indian trial. The vehicle’s overall design was modified to suitable for operation in desert and high temperature condition, including the change of firing rate to 3 rounds in 30 seconds.

In February 2020, media reported that IIT Madras along with IIT Kanpur, Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE) and Research Centre Imarat (RCI) are working on redesigning an existing 155 mm shell using ramjet propulsion that can cover 60 km+ range. It will be compatible with K9 Vajra-T. The shell will use precision guidance kit for trajectory correction. IIT Madras is ensuring that Munitions India can manufacture the shells.

The 100th vehicle was delivered to the Indian Army on 18 February 2021, completing the contract ahead the schedule.


In May 2021, it was reported that India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation is working with Larsen & Toubro on a light tank using the K9 chassis with 105mm or 120mm gun system to counter China’s Type 15 tank. The light tank variant was opted out as the estimated vehicle weight exceeded 30 t, limiting the places to operate.

The Indian Army planned ordering an additional 40 K-9 Vajra-T from Larsen & Toubro as of 2021 after completion of high altitude trials at Ladakh under cold climatic conditions. India is also looking to export the K9 Vajra-T variant to third countries in collaboration with South Korea and industry partners.

After satisfactory performance at high altitude terrain, Ministry of Defence (MoD) is getting ready to place repeat order of 200 K9 Vajra-T worth ₹9,600 crore. The proposal for first 100 units was cleared on 27 September 2022. The new batch will equip enhanced engine suited for high altitude operation, and is expected to complete delivery by 2028.
 

The Shrike

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This news of all 105 being replaced by 155 is more than a decade old and was part of the field artillery rationalization plan. I think its got more to do with maintenance of war wastage reserves on a shoe string budget. So while the 105 mounted gun system is being given some attention, I am not sure if the Army is actually interested in it. I do agree that heavy mortars are needed especially in mountains. But why can't ULH 155mm do the job of the 105mm?
105 will always be lighter/smaller and have lesser logistic footprint for ammo etc than a 155 - and in some scenarios the compromise with range and destructive power vs 155mm will be well worth it.
247B889D-99C0-4953-B9A5-6EFDB891AEAB.png

On a more serious note FARP itself was was formulated after Kargil war (IIRC), where they found that 105mm rounds did not have the “punch”. But IMO the Army may have learnt the wrong lesson from it, future conflicts were very unlikely to be like Kargil. They doubled down on 155mm towed artillery vs SP artillery and completely missed the bus on loitering munitions, longer range rockets/SRBMs (only waking up now).
 

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