Indian Army Artillery

mist_consecutive

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This has to be the best news of this month !

Both are separate requirements for different geographical conditions

Truck mounted howitzers cannot be merged with tracked orders

Also K9 costs 2.5 to 3 times of any 155/52 truck mounted Howitzer & is heavy on logistics as well

Truck mounted howitzers are better suited for mountainous terrain

Ab bhagwan ki daya se... Ladakh has some flat plains... that's why K9 got its space. K9 won't be of use in Kashmir, Kargil, Siachen, UKD, Arunachal etc.
Umm, can you explain the bold part? Apart from the weight factor, is there any other reason? I will think a tracked vehicle will be able to move better on the rocky and steep mountainous surface better.

Truck-mounted howitzers are definitely lightweight but they will have to stick to the beaten path.
 

srutayus

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A lot of hyperventilating based on ignorance here. The 200 armored “wheeled self-propelled guns” with turrets for which the army was eyeing the old Denel G6 20 years ago has been replaced by the tracked one. See original planned numbers here
A much needed and logical step that took too long thanks to our bureaucracy. The -814 truck mounted gun requirement is intact.

9D64A907-A210-4846-BC7E-49FA6A85FBA8.jpeg
 
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srutayus

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A lot of hyperventilating based on ignorance here. The 200 armored “wheeled self-propelled guns” with turrets for which the army was eyeing the old Denel G6 20 years ago has been replaced by the tracked one. See original planned numbers here
A much needed and logical step that took too long thanks to our bureaucracy. The -814 truck mounted gun requirement is intact.

View attachment 133593
 

Hari Sud

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Any guesses why ATAG artillery development is being held up other than long standing weight issue. To me an artillery piece which can dump s shell 45 km is needed more urgently but being delayed for flimsy reasons. Weight becomes a non issue if a piece of artillery from Jalandhar cantonment bombard Lahore. Or from Ferozpur you could bombard Kasur. On Chinese border, a troop of long range guns on the periphery of Chumbi Valley could keep Chinese away, far away. Chinese think that a strong thrust towards Silliguri they could capture that 12 miles neck and choke Indian defences in the east. That is why we need ATAGS to Bomb the enemy away.

Again Indian legally copied Dhanush which has no weight issue is again delayed. If the government factories are incapable of building the right type or the low grade parts sourced indiscriminately from Chinese sources then it should be handed over to the private sector.

This artillery waiting game has continued for long…… it has to be ended soon. That import lobby of Israeli artillery guns has to be shown the door and asked never to return.
 

India Super Power

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Any guesses why ATAG artillery development is being held up other than long standing weight issue. To me an artillery piece which can dump s shell 45 km is needed more urgently but being delayed for flimsy reasons. Weight becomes a non issue if a piece of artillery from Jalandhar cantonment bombard Lahore. Or from Ferozpur you could bombard Kasur. On Chinese border, a troop of long range guns on the periphery of Chumbi Valley could keep Chinese away, far away. Chinese think that a strong thrust towards Silliguri they could capture that 12 miles neck and choke Indian defences in the east. That is why we need ATAGS to Bomb the enemy away.

Again Indian legally copied Dhanush which has no weight issue is again delayed. If the government factories are incapable of building the right type or the low grade parts sourced indiscriminately from Chinese sources then it should be handed over to the private sector.

This artillery waiting game has continued for long…… it has to be ended soon. That import lobby of Israeli artillery guns has to be shown the door and asked never to return.
It's really depressing how our indigenous artillery is being literally destroyed before our eyes and by our own people, the one who are majorly responsible for this is Israeli lobby and I hate them for this particular reason
May God provide a good costumer for atags or let it die peacefully 🙏
We have pushed it to 2025 and it will be pushed further too and atlast old tech no orders condition
 

AVERAGE INDIAN

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Aniruddha Mulay

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Should also merge that 814 wheeled howitzer with this tender itself
We are woefully lacking in 155 mm arty
155 / 39 or 155 /52 mm don't make much difference except in range
Else the projectiles are the same for both guns , we should more of the former type , the earth movers
Merging the requirement for 814 Wheeled SPH with tracked SPH requirement would not be feasible.
A single K9 Vajra costs almost $8 million, with the funds that are currently available, I don't see any more than 300 K9 Vajra operating with the IA.
Also, having a wheeled SPH has its own set of benefits, unlike tracked SPH, which need tractor trailers to carry them to the battlefield, wheeled SPH can go there on their own.
 

Aniruddha Mulay

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Any guesses why ATAG artillery development is being held up other than long standing weight issue. To me an artillery piece which can dump s shell 45 km is needed more urgently but being delayed for flimsy reasons. Weight becomes a non issue if a piece of artillery from Jalandhar cantonment bombard Lahore. Or from Ferozpur you could bombard Kasur. On Chinese border, a troop of long range guns on the periphery of Chumbi Valley could keep Chinese away, far away. Chinese think that a strong thrust towards Silliguri they could capture that 12 miles neck and choke Indian defences in the east. That is why we need ATAGS to Bomb the enemy away.

Again Indian legally copied Dhanush which has no weight issue is again delayed. If the government factories are incapable of building the right type or the low grade parts sourced indiscriminately from Chinese sources then it should be handed over to the private sector.

This artillery waiting game has continued for long…… it has to be ended soon. That import lobby of Israeli artillery guns has to be shown the door and asked never to return.
ATAGS will be forced down the throat of the Indian Army, one way or the other, there is no aspect which will change that, its now only a question of when.
Multiple proposals of the import of Athos 2052 has been shot down multiple times by the MoD and the recent closure on import of 155/52 towed artillery only ensures that.
 

JohnWick

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ATAGS will be forced down the throat of the Indian Army,
It's kinda sad that even when their is a possible two front war scenario looming the Indian Army is still busy derailing Indigenous weapon that will give them a clear edge in conflict, shows where the priorities of the IMPORT ARMY truly is.

PS Israeli PM Bennett Likely To Visit India As Two Nations Celebrate 30 Years Of Diplomatic Ties, i have a feeling he will most likely be shilling for ATHOS during this meeting.
 

THESIS THORON

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iNorthernerOn9

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I don't have any links/sources to prove my claim.

But, according to what I have heard... The FARP(Field Artillery Rationalization Plan) has been revised & the requirement of Towed Artillery has been brought down to 700-800 & the requirement of truck mounted howitzers increased to 1500-1600 & requirement of air-transportable ultra light Artillery increased to 500.

So the possibility of ATAGS getting orders is bleak.(has a chance only if it gets truck mounted)

I know it will hurt many... but logically in future short & swift conflict the role of towed Artillery is questionable... Anything that is stationary or slow is a liability.

Also truck mounted howitzers are of 3 types: manual, Semi-automatic & fully automatic(my own classification based on videos😌)

In the fully automatic ones... no crew has to get down on ground for operations... example: Swedish Archer

Example of semi automatic: French Caesar-2

Out of the 1600 truck mounted howitzers as mentioned above... 400 would be 155/39 & 1200 of 155/52

At last... For those happy with ATHOS cancelation... there is something called ATMOS
 
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Hari Sud

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I don't have any links/sources to prove my claim.

But, according to what I have heard... The FARP(Field Artillery Rationalization Plan) has been revised & the requirement of Towed Artillery has been brought down to 700-800 & the requirement of truck mounted howitzers increased to 1500-1600 & requirement of air-transportable ultra light Artillery increased to 500.

So the possibility of ATAGS getting orders is bleak.(has a chance only if it gets truck mounted)

I know it will hurt many... but logically in future short & swift conflict the role of towed Artillery is questionable... Anything that is stationary or slow is a liability.

Also truck mounted howitzers are of 3 types: manual, Semi-automatic & fully automatic(my own classification based on videos😌)

In the fully automatic ones... no crew has to get down on ground for operations... example: Swedish Archer

Example of semi automatic: French Caesar-2

Out of the 1600 truck mounted howitzers as mentioned above... 400 would be 155/39 & 1200 of 155/52

At last... For those happy with ATHOS cancelation... there is something called ATMOS
You may be quite right. The mobile artillery is now the favoured piece. The things favouring ATAGS is …… how far it can dump its shell. That 48 km distance is very good. It qualifies better than all the mobile artillery pieces.
 

AVERAGE INDIAN

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if the problem is soo big then why does-not goi sack these chandigharfags.
these as*soles have deep roots, it's upto IB and PMO to take Action. if you want to know more bellow article is a good read old but lot of valid points

 

The Shrike

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Re wheeled howitzers the US Army recently concluded a "Shoot-off" evaluation of including all the major offerings and has decided not to go with any one of them, instead develop a new system. would be interesting to know their findings.
https://www.thedefensepost.com/2022/01/11/us-army-truck-mounted-howitzer/
The evaluation saw national and international participants demonstrating their systems, including BAE Systems’ ARCHER, Elbit Systems of America’s ATMOS Iron Sabre, Nexter’s Caesar, AM General’s Brutus, and the NORA B-52 M21 system.
 

WolfPack86

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What’s behind a massive order for Made-in-India howitzers
The defence ministry has begun moving files to place a repeat order of 200 more 155mm tracked self-propelled howitzers worth over Rs 10,000 crore.

This significant order, to be placed with Larsen & Toubro (L&T) sometime this year, is the largest order placed with an Indian private sector defence firm and is a potential booster dose for the government’s plan to modernise the military, create an industrial defence base and reduce defence imports.

A self-propelled gun is a tank chassis fitted with a howitzer designed to provide firepower to mobile columns. A K9 Vajra weighs 50 tonnes and can fire shells out to over 50 kilometres. L&T had delivered 100 K-9 Vajras for Rs 4,500 crore in partnership with South Korean defence firm Hanwha Defense. The contract was signed in May 2017 and the 100th gun delivered to the army on February 2021. It remains the largest Make in India programmes signed and completed on this government’s watch.

It is also the fastest way for the army to acquire modern artillery systems.

A new order, which could be placed by this year, will see the guns start to roll out of Hazira by 2023 with all deliveries completed before 2028. A large number of these guns will be specially modified with uprated engines to operate in the high altitude cold deserts of Ladakh and Sikkim.

It is not a stretch to believe this massive order could be one of the highlights of Defexpo 2022, the defence ministry’s biennial land and naval systems exhibition. The 12th instalment of Defexpo is to be held in Gandhinagar, Gujarat, between March 10 and 13. It also coincides with the government’s drive to make Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s home state a defence industrial hub.

Until last year, the army had planned to order only one more K9 regiment. How then did this become a humongous 10 regiments? One reason, clearly, was China’s military deployment, which began in eastern Ladakh in May 2020.

The army’s five existing regiments of Vajras (each regiment has 18 guns, not counting the two in reserve) were acquired not for the mountains, but to operate with the Indian army’s three strike corps ranged across the plains of the Punjab and the semi-deserts of Rajasthan. The People’s Liberation Army deployment and the subsequent activation of the entire northern and eastern borders saw the army scramble to acquire modern artillery. Late last year, three K9s were moved up into eastern Ladakh on a trial basis. A senior artillery officer in the Udhampur-based Northern command was a key mover behind this unusual deployment. The guns drove up from Leh to the forward areas of eastern Ladakh on their own power (instead of a tank transporter-trailer), demonstrating their ability to operate independently. What seemed to have been forgotten was that these guns had been originally designed to operate in South Korea, a rugged mountainous country with a hostile neighbor and with climatic conditions that could mimic those of eastern Ladakh. The Indian army K9s, however, still needed to be modified with a special low temperature kit in the field with L&T engineers. The range tables and the software that guided these guns was modified, again in the field, by the engineers. The guns are believed to have performed exceedingly well, which strengthened their case for more guns.


“If you don’t have at least 10 more regiments of self-propelled artillery, you will fall short all over the border,” says Lt General P Ravi Shankar, former Director General Artillery.

The army’s own howitzer acquisitions were going nowhere. Its insistence on acquiring 400 ‘Athos’ towed howitzers from Israeli firm Elbit were repeatedly rebuffed by the MoD and the case finally closed late last year. The MoD argued, correctly it would seem, that imports would kill indigenous howitzer capabilities developed over the years by a range of private and public sector developers. Seen from the army’s point of view, the two most promising indigenous artillery systems are yet to deliver. Design defects on the Dhanush, an indigenous version of the FH-77B Bofors, have jeopardised an army order for 114 guns. The DRDO-designed Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS), built indigenously by Tata Defense and Bharat Forge, is yet to clear army trials. The army believes it could take these guns at least until 2025 to pass its stringent trials.

The army hence cannibalised its requirement for nine regiments of wheeled howitzers—a 155 mm howitzer mounted on a 6x6 armoured vehicle—to make way for the K9s. The wheeled howitzer programme was one of five different types of howitzers projected after the Kargil War and whose requirement was accepted by the government. Around 3,000 new guns were to be procured in the towed, wheeled and tracked (on a tank chassis, like the K-9) mounted gun systems (on a truck chassis) and ultra-light howitzer categories. Only the mounted gun systems and the wheeled howitzers are to be acquired. The second category now seems to have been scrapped.
 

Hari Sud

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What’s behind a massive order for Made-in-India howitzers
The defence ministry has begun moving files to place a repeat order of 200 more 155mm tracked self-propelled howitzers worth over Rs 10,000 crore.

This significant order, to be placed with Larsen & Toubro (L&T) sometime this year, is the largest order placed with an Indian private sector defence firm and is a potential booster dose for the government’s plan to modernise the military, create an industrial defence base and reduce defence imports.

A self-propelled gun is a tank chassis fitted with a howitzer designed to provide firepower to mobile columns. A K9 Vajra weighs 50 tonnes and can fire shells out to over 50 kilometres. L&T had delivered 100 K-9 Vajras for Rs 4,500 crore in partnership with South Korean defence firm Hanwha Defense. The contract was signed in May 2017 and the 100th gun delivered to the army on February 2021. It remains the largest Make in India programmes signed and completed on this government’s watch.

It is also the fastest way for the army to acquire modern artillery systems.

A new order, which could be placed by this year, will see the guns start to roll out of Hazira by 2023 with all deliveries completed before 2028. A large number of these guns will be specially modified with uprated engines to operate in the high altitude cold deserts of Ladakh and Sikkim.

It is not a stretch to believe this massive order could be one of the highlights of Defexpo 2022, the defence ministry’s biennial land and naval systems exhibition. The 12th instalment of Defexpo is to be held in Gandhinagar, Gujarat, between March 10 and 13. It also coincides with the government’s drive to make Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s home state a defence industrial hub.

Until last year, the army had planned to order only one more K9 regiment. How then did this become a humongous 10 regiments? One reason, clearly, was China’s military deployment, which began in eastern Ladakh in May 2020.

The army’s five existing regiments of Vajras (each regiment has 18 guns, not counting the two in reserve) were acquired not for the mountains, but to operate with the Indian army’s three strike corps ranged across the plains of the Punjab and the semi-deserts of Rajasthan. The People’s Liberation Army deployment and the subsequent activation of the entire northern and eastern borders saw the army scramble to acquire modern artillery. Late last year, three K9s were moved up into eastern Ladakh on a trial basis. A senior artillery officer in the Udhampur-based Northern command was a key mover behind this unusual deployment. The guns drove up from Leh to the forward areas of eastern Ladakh on their own power (instead of a tank transporter-trailer), demonstrating their ability to operate independently. What seemed to have been forgotten was that these guns had been originally designed to operate in South Korea, a rugged mountainous country with a hostile neighbor and with climatic conditions that could mimic those of eastern Ladakh. The Indian army K9s, however, still needed to be modified with a special low temperature kit in the field with L&T engineers. The range tables and the software that guided these guns was modified, again in the field, by the engineers. The guns are believed to have performed exceedingly well, which strengthened their case for more guns.


“If you don’t have at least 10 more regiments of self-propelled artillery, you will fall short all over the border,” says Lt General P Ravi Shankar, former Director General Artillery.

The army’s own howitzer acquisitions were going nowhere. Its insistence on acquiring 400 ‘Athos’ towed howitzers from Israeli firm Elbit were repeatedly rebuffed by the MoD and the case finally closed late last year. The MoD argued, correctly it would seem, that imports would kill indigenous howitzer capabilities developed over the years by a range of private and public sector developers. Seen from the army’s point of view, the two most promising indigenous artillery systems are yet to deliver. Design defects on the Dhanush, an indigenous version of the FH-77B Bofors, have jeopardised an army order for 114 guns. The DRDO-designed Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS), built indigenously by Tata Defense and Bharat Forge, is yet to clear army trials. The army believes it could take these guns at least until 2025 to pass its stringent trials.

The army hence cannibalised its requirement for nine regiments of wheeled howitzers—a 155 mm howitzer mounted on a 6x6 armoured vehicle—to make way for the K9s. The wheeled howitzer programme was one of five different types of howitzers projected after the Kargil War and whose requirement was accepted by the government. Around 3,000 new guns were to be procured in the towed, wheeled and tracked (on a tank chassis, like the K-9) mounted gun systems (on a truck chassis) and ultra-light howitzer categories. Only the mounted gun systems and the wheeled howitzers are to be acquired. The second category now seems to have been scrapped.
‘What is wrong with ATAGS and Dhanush. The Israeli import is out of question hence the Army should concentrate on local products.
 

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