Indian Army Artillery

Love Charger

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Raksha Mantri has unveiled Bharat Forge MaRg 155mm SPG
Army has no requirement of this , mounted gun systems of 155 /52mm calibre are needed in 814 nos , and not in 155 /39 mm calibre , so this thing dead on arrival
 

Kuldeepm952

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Army has no requirement of this , mounted gun systems of 155 /52mm calibre are needed in 814 nos , and not in 155 /39 mm calibre , so this thing dead.
Lol, the army itself asked for this particular mounted version. It's very much alive, there's even an interview somewhere on YouTube mentioning the same. They won't really ask a private firm if they didn't wanted it.
 

Angel of War

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Army has no requirement of this , mounted gun systems of 155 /52mm calibre are needed in 814 nos , and not in 155 /39 mm calibre , so this thing dead on arrival
if so then why would RM himself unveil this gun and that too in the presence of COAS and Chairman of Kalyani Group! Just think about it for a moment
 

doreamon

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Army has no requirement of this , mounted gun systems of 155 /52mm calibre are needed in 814 nos , and not in 155 /39 mm calibre , so this thing dead on arrival
This is mountain artillery . It comes in two version - steel and titanium . India is in need of a mobile light weight mountain artillery for LAC . I think the picture shown is the steel version . Army had asked for this .
 

pipebomb

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This is mountain artillery . It comes in two version - steel and titanium . India is in need of a mobile light weight mountain artillery for LAC . I think the picture shown is the steel version . Army had asked for this .
With road connectivity picking up in eastern sector of LAC where roads are narrow and full of steep hairpin bends, it will out perform any 155 wheeled howitzer. However i don't know much about its loading mechanism.
 
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WolfPack86

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Israel’s ATHOS gun system or Atmanirbhar ATAGS? Defence negative list to finalise next week
New Delhi: Nearly 14 years ago, the Ministry of Defence cleared the proposal for a towed artillery gun system under the ‘Buy and Make’ category that was meant to be the backbone of India’s fire assault. A final decision on this is still awaited.

All eyes are now on the second defence negative import list, which is expected to be out soon, to see if the 155mm x 52 caliber towed artillery gun is on it.

Sources in the defence establishment told ThePrint that the list has been submitted but a physical meeting has not taken place due to the second wave of the Covid-19 pandemic.

The meeting to review and clear the decision is now expected next week.

While the artillery gun was there in the first negative list released on 9 August 2020, and the embargo was to kick in from December 2020, the date was was subsequently changed to December 2021.

With the deal yet to be signed, eyes are on whether the cut-off date will remain or extended again.

The reason for extending the date was that while the indigenous Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS) is being built, a separate process is also on to get similar guns from the global market and making them in the country under the ‘Make in India’ initiative.

This race was primarily between Israel’s Elbit Systems and France’s Nexter, and Elbit’s Autonomous Towed Howitzer Ordnance System (ATHOS) emerged the winner.


The process for acquiring towed guns began in 2001 as part of the Army’s Field Artillery Rationalisation Plan, which had been drawn up in 1999. Multiple requests for proposal (RFPs) were issued. In the last RFP, which was issued under the UPA government, only the two companies mentioned above participated, sources said.

Nearly 14 years ago, the Ministry of Defence cleared the proposal for a towed artillery gun system under the ‘Buy and Make’ category that was meant to be the backbone of India’s fire assault.

Elbit emerged cheaper than Nexter
In March 2019, following what was meant to be an exhaustive ‘Field Trial Cum Evaluation Process’ spread over several years, which saw several ups and downs, Elbit Systems was declared the lowest bidder (L1).

The deal was for the supply of 400 guns and indigenous production of the remainder 1,180 guns by Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), under a full Transfer of Technology (TOT) process.

Sources in the defence establishment said the price of Elbit Systems’ ATHOS was lower by 40 per cent compared to the price of its competitor — Nexter’s Trajan gun.

Sources in know of the bidding process said the cost per gun, which weighs less than 15 tonnes and has a fully automatic loading system, put forward by Elbit was less than Rs 11 crore per piece. This is also significantly lower than the estimated cost of the ATAGS, which is said to be anywhere between Rs 16-18 crore.

However, since the bid opened in March 2019 and the completion of the cost negotiation process in July that year, a final decision is pending.

In December last year, the Israeli government also wrote a letter to Defence Minister Rajnath Singh to push for this deal.

However, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has gone on record to oppose any import plans, saying that its ATAGS was better than ATHOS and is the gun of the future.

Elbit’s offer
Earlier last year, the Israeli firm also wrote to the Indian defence authorities, stating that in case they prefer to acquire only the first 400 towed guns, the related cost corresponding to TOT can be deducted from the total contract price.

This was due to a line of thinking in the defence establishment that 400 of these guns (for 20 regiments) can be procured from Elbit to “overcome operational voids in the medium artillery in HAA (High Altitude Area) along the northern borders”.

However, sources said the figures in the RFP cannot be changed in the middle of the process.

In the letter, Elbit Systems had offered the TOT for the future 1,180 guns as an option for India, at the same cost as mentioned in the commercial offer made.

Elbit also said it has finalised the approach and strategy to achieve 70 per cent indigenisation within the contract of the first 400 towed guns, starting from the first guns.

The company’s argument was that the ATHOS is tailored to the special requirements of the Indian Army and it has invested tens of millions of dollars in the design and development of the gun in accordance with Army requirements and in the field trials.

The sources said Elbit also promised to supply the guns much earlier than the contract delivery schedule — the first six guns within 10 months from contract signing, and an additional six guns within 14 months.

According to the Israeli firm, all the remaining guns will be delivered according to an accelerated delivery schedule, which will ensure finalisation of the deliveries not later than 54 months from contract signing, instead of the 72 months stipulated in the draft contract.

In its communications with the Indian defence establishment, Elbit said the ATHOS will end up being an indigenous gun — mass produced, assembled and integrated in India.

Highlighting that it has a joint venture (JV) with Indian firm Bharat Forge, the Israeli company said the technology and design will be fully transferred to the JV and OFB, enabling the ATHOS to be mass-produced in India.

Incidentally, Bharat Forge is also involved with the ATGS development along with the Tata Group.

This report has been updated to reflect that the import embargo date for the artillery gun was extended to December 2021.
 

Prashant12

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What’s behind a massive order for Made-in-India howitzers

A firepower imbalance in a border standoff with China and the need to kickstart indigenous defence industry…. A Rs 10,000 crore order for 200 howitzers could be just what Indian industry needs







The defence ministry has begun moving files to place a repeat order of 200 more 155mm tracked self-propelled howitzers worth over Rs 10,000 crore.


This significant order, to be placed with Larsen & Toubro (L&T) sometime this year, is the largest order placed with an Indian private sector defence firm and is a potential booster dose for the government’s plan to modernise the military, create an industrial defence base and reduce defence imports.

A self-propelled gun is a tank chassis fitted with a howitzer designed to provide firepower to mobile columns. A K9 Vajra weighs 50 tonnes and can fire shells out to over 50 kilometres. L&T had delivered 100 K-9 Vajras for Rs 4,500 crore in partnership with South Korean defence firm Hanwha Defense. The contract was signed in May 2017 and the 100th gun delivered to the army on February 2021. It remains the largest Make in India programmes signed and completed on this government’s watch.
It is also the fastest way for the army to acquire modern artillery systems.

A new order, which could be placed by this year, will see the guns start to roll out of Hazira by 2023 with all deliveries completed before 2028. A large number of these guns will be specially modified with uprated engines to operate in the high altitude cold deserts of Ladakh and Sikkim.

It is not a stretch to believe this massive order could be one of the highlights of Defexpo 2022, the defence ministry’s biennial land and naval systems exhibition. The 12th instalment of Defexpo is to be held in Gandhinagar, Gujarat, between March 10 and 13. It also coincides with the government’s drive to make Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s home state a defence industrial hub.

Until last year, the army had planned to order only one more K9 regiment. How then did this become a humongous 10 regiments? One reason, clearly, was China’s military deployment, which began in eastern Ladakh in May 2020.
The army’s five existing regiments of Vajras (each regiment has 18 guns, not counting the two in reserve) were acquired not for the mountains, but to operate with the Indian army’s three strike corps ranged across the plains of the Punjab and the semi-deserts of Rajasthan. The People’s Liberation Army deployment and the subsequent activation of the entire northern and eastern borders saw the army scramble to acquire modern artillery. Late last year, three K9s were moved up into eastern Ladakh on a trial basis. A senior artillery officer in the Udhampur-based Northern command was a key mover behind this unusual deployment. The guns drove up from Leh to the forward areas of eastern Ladakh on their own power (instead of a tank transporter-trailer), demonstrating their ability to operate independently. What seemed to have been forgotten was that these guns had been originally designed to operate in South Korea, a rugged mountainous country with a hostile neighbor and with climatic conditions that could mimic those of eastern Ladakh. The Indian army K9s, however, still needed to be modified with a special low temperature kit in the field with L&T engineers. The range tables and the software that guided these guns was modified, again in the field, by the engineers. The guns are believed to have performed exceedingly well, which strengthened their case for more guns.

“If you don’t have at least 10 more regiments of self-propelled artillery, you will fall short all over the border,” says Lt General P Ravi Shankar, former Director General Artillery.
The army’s own howitzer acquisitions were going nowhere. Its insistence on acquiring 400 ‘Athos’ towed howitzers from Israeli firm Elbit were repeatedly rebuffed by the MoD and the case finally closed late last year. The MoD argued, correctly it would seem, that imports would kill indigenous howitzer capabilities developed over the years by a range of private and public sector developers. Seen from the army’s point of view, the two most promising indigenous artillery systems are yet to deliver. Design defects on the Dhanush, an indigenous version of the FH-77B Bofors, have jeopardised an army order for 114 guns. The DRDO-designed Advanced Towed Array Gun System (ATAGS), built indigenously by Tata Defense and Bharat Forge, is yet to clear army trials. The army believes it could take these guns at least until 2025 to pass its stringent trials.
The army hence cannibalised its requirement for nine regiments of wheeled howitzers—a 155 mm howitzer mounted on a 6x6 armoured vehicle—to make way for the K9s. The wheeled howitzer programme was one of five different types of howitzers projected after the Kargil War and whose requirement was accepted by the government. Around 3,000 new guns were to be procured in the towed, wheeled and tracked (on a tank chassis, like the K-9) mounted gun systems (on a truck chassis) and ultra-light howitzer categories. Only the mounted gun systems and the wheeled howitzers are to be acquired. The second category now seems to have been scrapped.

What’s behind a massive order for Made-in-India howitzers - India Today Insight News
 

Marliii

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What’s behind a massive order for Made-in-India howitzers

A firepower imbalance in a border standoff with China and the need to kickstart indigenous defence industry…. A Rs 10,000 crore order for 200 howitzers could be just what Indian industry needs







The defence ministry has begun moving files to place a repeat order of 200 more 155mm tracked self-propelled howitzers worth over Rs 10,000 crore.


This significant order, to be placed with Larsen & Toubro (L&T) sometime this year, is the largest order placed with an Indian private sector defence firm and is a potential booster dose for the government’s plan to modernise the military, create an industrial defence base and reduce defence imports.

A self-propelled gun is a tank chassis fitted with a howitzer designed to provide firepower to mobile columns. A K9 Vajra weighs 50 tonnes and can fire shells out to over 50 kilometres. L&T had delivered 100 K-9 Vajras for Rs 4,500 crore in partnership with South Korean defence firm Hanwha Defense. The contract was signed in May 2017 and the 100th gun delivered to the army on February 2021. It remains the largest Make in India programmes signed and completed on this government’s watch.
It is also the fastest way for the army to acquire modern artillery systems.

A new order, which could be placed by this year, will see the guns start to roll out of Hazira by 2023 with all deliveries completed before 2028. A large number of these guns will be specially modified with uprated engines to operate in the high altitude cold deserts of Ladakh and Sikkim.

It is not a stretch to believe this massive order could be one of the highlights of Defexpo 2022, the defence ministry’s biennial land and naval systems exhibition. The 12th instalment of Defexpo is to be held in Gandhinagar, Gujarat, between March 10 and 13. It also coincides with the government’s drive to make Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s home state a defence industrial hub.

Until last year, the army had planned to order only one more K9 regiment. How then did this become a humongous 10 regiments? One reason, clearly, was China’s military deployment, which began in eastern Ladakh in May 2020.
The army’s five existing regiments of Vajras (each regiment has 18 guns, not counting the two in reserve) were acquired not for the mountains, but to operate with the Indian army’s three strike corps ranged across the plains of the Punjab and the semi-deserts of Rajasthan. The People’s Liberation Army deployment and the subsequent activation of the entire northern and eastern borders saw the army scramble to acquire modern artillery. Late last year, three K9s were moved up into eastern Ladakh on a trial basis. A senior artillery officer in the Udhampur-based Northern command was a key mover behind this unusual deployment. The guns drove up from Leh to the forward areas of eastern Ladakh on their own power (instead of a tank transporter-trailer), demonstrating their ability to operate independently. What seemed to have been forgotten was that these guns had been originally designed to operate in South Korea, a rugged mountainous country with a hostile neighbor and with climatic conditions that could mimic those of eastern Ladakh. The Indian army K9s, however, still needed to be modified with a special low temperature kit in the field with L&T engineers. The range tables and the software that guided these guns was modified, again in the field, by the engineers. The guns are believed to have performed exceedingly well, which strengthened their case for more guns.

“If you don’t have at least 10 more regiments of self-propelled artillery, you will fall short all over the border,” says Lt General P Ravi Shankar, former Director General Artillery.
The army’s own howitzer acquisitions were going nowhere. Its insistence on acquiring 400 ‘Athos’ towed howitzers from Israeli firm Elbit were repeatedly rebuffed by the MoD and the case finally closed late last year. The MoD argued, correctly it would seem, that imports would kill indigenous howitzer capabilities developed over the years by a range of private and public sector developers. Seen from the army’s point of view, the two most promising indigenous artillery systems are yet to deliver. Design defects on the Dhanush, an indigenous version of the FH-77B Bofors, have jeopardised an army order for 114 guns. The DRDO-designed Advanced Towed Array Gun System (ATAGS), built indigenously by Tata Defense and Bharat Forge, is yet to clear army trials. The army believes it could take these guns at least until 2025 to pass its stringent trials.
The army hence cannibalised its requirement for nine regiments of wheeled howitzers—a 155 mm howitzer mounted on a 6x6 armoured vehicle—to make way for the K9s. The wheeled howitzer programme was one of five different types of howitzers projected after the Kargil War and whose requirement was accepted by the government. Around 3,000 new guns were to be procured in the towed, wheeled and tracked (on a tank chassis, like the K-9) mounted gun systems (on a truck chassis) and ultra-light howitzer categories. Only the mounted gun systems and the wheeled howitzers are to be acquired. The second category now seems to have been scrapped.

What’s behind a massive order for Made-in-India howitzers - India Today Insight News
Is this true?
 

Love Charger

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Should also merge that 814 wheeled howitzer with this tender itself
We are woefully lacking in 155 mm arty
155 / 39 or 155 /52 mm don't make much difference except in range
Else the projectiles are the same for both guns , we should more of the former type , the earth movers
 

iNorthernerOn9

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Should also merge that 814 wheeled howitzer with this tender itself
We are woefully lacking in 155 mm arty
155 / 39 or 155 /52 mm don't make much difference except in range
Else the projectiles are the same for both guns , we should more of the former type , the earth movers

Both are separate requirements for different geographical conditions

Truck mounted howitzers cannot be merged with tracked orders

Also K9 costs 2.5 to 3 times of any 155/52 truck mounted Howitzer & is heavy on logistics as well

Truck mounted howitzers are better suited for mountainous terrain

Ab bhagwan ki daya se... Ladakh has some flat plains... that's why K9 got its space. K9 won't be of use in Kashmir, Kargil, Siachen, UKD, Arunachal etc.
 
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