Indian Army Armored Vehicles

p2prada

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If 85% is made in India as you say, then the time of three years is simply too long. This is also surprising that the government cannot plan acquisitions properly so that unnecessary delays are avoided.
Next you will say 9 months is too long for a baby to be born.

I can assure you that a Tata or Mahindra or and even an Eicher Motors can make a far better tank much faster than HVF any day.
You have no knowledge about the military to give me any assurances.

Even their FICV quality is not guaranteed. Military equipment is an entirely different cup of tea compared to civilian vehicles. Civilian vehicles survive only in some conditions and only for a few years. You need a fitness certificate in just 15 years. Tanks are expected to remain in service for 50 years while operating in varied conditions. TATA/Mahindra etc have ZERO experience in building real military equipment. All they have done is build some trucks. They are decades too early to start building tanks.

Even if you give them a tank project they won't take it up.
 

sgarg

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Next you will say 9 months is too long for a baby to be born.



You have no knowledge about the military to give me any assurances.

Even their FICV quality is not guaranteed. Military equipment is an entirely different cup of tea compared to civilian vehicles. Civilian vehicles survive only in some conditions and only for a few years. You need a fitness certificate in just 15 years. Tanks are expected to remain in service for 50 years while operating in varied conditions. TATA/Mahindra etc have ZERO experience in building real military equipment. All they have done is build some trucks. They are decades too early to start building tanks.

Even if you give them a tank project they won't take it up.
Have you ever visited a public sector company? I doubt you have.

What is "special" about military engineering. You are so proud of your knowledge. OK let us discuss point by point.

I am mesmerized by your statements. You said 85% of the tank is built in India. This means the vendors, machines, and manpower is in place. Then you say it take 3 years to assemble the materials. Can you explain why?
 

sgarg

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Have you ever visited a public sector company? I doubt you have.

What is "special" about military engineering. You are so proud of your knowledge. OK let us discuss point by point.

I am mesmerized by your statements. You said 85% of the tank is built in India. This means the vendors, machines, and manpower is in place. Then you say it take 3 years to assemble the materials. Can you explain why?
Tata/Mahindra know how to build things. They have management maturity and industrial maturity.
 

sgarg

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This might help understand tank manufacture, upgrades and maintenance and what it involves.

Main Battle Tank - M1, M1A1, and M1A2 Abrams
Mr Ray, please do not stand in p2prada category.

Everybody knows the socialist governments of India reserved defence for the public sector. Private sector was never allowed to manufacture equipment.

Tata does not make tanks because they have not been allowed.

If somebody says that Tata cannot design a tank, I can understand. But only a fool can say Tata cannot build a tank. There is a huge difference between designing and manufacturing.
 

Ray

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A range of facilities feed into HVF's T-90S production line. Two OFB factories in Kanpur build the gun and breach block. Another in Jabalpur builds the recoil system, while another one in Tiruchiralapplli fabricates the 12.7 millimetre air defence gun. The sophisticated thermal imaging sights and gunner's sights come from OFB's Opto-Electronics Factory in Dehradun. The gun stabilizer, which allows the tank to fire accurately while moving, comes from Bharat Electronics Ltd.

Within Avadi, HVF builds major components of the T-90S: the hull, turret, transmission, gearbox and the running gear. Another OFB facility next door, Engine Factory, Avadi, builds the tank's 1000 HP engine. Thousands of minor parts are outsourced to local industry: electrical items, cables, starter generator, instrument panel, hardware and rubber components. According to OFB's Jain, the T-90S has been 70% indigenised; this will increase to 80% next year.

Bringing together all this parts takes 30 months. Then HVF assembles them into a tank.
 

Ray

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Mr Ray, please do not stand in p2prada category.

Everybody knows the socialist governments of India reserved defence for the public sector. Private sector was never allowed to manufacture equipment.

Tata does not make tanks because they have not been allowed.

If somebody says that Tata cannot design a tank, I can understand. But only a fool can say Tata cannot build a tank. There is a huge difference between designing and manufacturing.
Are you aware how much it would take to lay the assembly lines and stations to manufacture a tank?
Are you aware that in the US without Congress funding, no weapon can be designed/manufactured/maintained/upgraded et al by the commercial vendor?

Is TATA capable of stand alone manufacture?

Would TATA or any other be willing to embark on military weaponry manufacturer without a guaranteed order?

Would the military accept unproved weaponry?

Food for thought.
 

Ray

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Ray

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To destroy the supply logistics and transportation of Indian ground forces up to the LAC, the PLA plans include rocket artillery massed fire-assaults combined with air strikes. To war-game out such a theatre, the PLA conducted its first joint Army-Air Force live-fire exercise on the Qinghai-Tibet plateau simulating the higher altitudes of the Himalayas in 2010.7 Interestingly, the Chinese military transported combat equipment for the exercise using the Qinghai-Tibet railroad, which was a first. The PLA and the PLAAF (PLA Air Force) followed up in 2011 with live-fire exercises on the lower plateau and higher mountains on the Qinghai-Tibet Plateau. For example, the PLAAF assets deployed in the Shigatse air base such as Su-27SKs, Su-27UBKs and J-10s engaged in air sorties in coordination with ground-based radar.8 Again a closer look at the level of PLAAF component in these exercises were limited to roughly platoon sized detachments reflecting the absence of offensive strike and power projection air capabilities in the TAR. But certainly these exercises threw up a lot of smoke and noise intended for the Indians who had their ears pressed to the ground not far away.

The real component of China's operational strategy vis-à-vis India at the border are its missiles deployed to the Tibetan vicinity. China replaced its old liquid fueled, nuclear capable CSS-3 intermediate range ballistic missile with "more advanced CSS-5 MRBMs". Intercontinental missiles such as the DF-31 and DF-31A have been deployed by China at Delingha, north of Tibet. China has also deployed the solid fuelled DF-21 in Delingha with a range of 2, 150 kms, which is within striking distance of Delhi (2, 000 kms from Delingha). The DF-21 can be launched from either a 13 or 15 metres diameter pad difficult to detect by satellites because of its mobility. Missiles can also escape detection since they are housed in underground tunnels. Such tunnels exist in Yatung, in the Chumbi valley, close to Sikkim.9



Motorized Capability
Tibet offers a flat surface which augments motorized mobility, which China has exploited fully. China has deployed Main Battle Tanks (MBT) and infantry combat vehicles in Tibet for defensive purposes in case there is a future conflict with India. As well as the mountainous region opposite Northeast India, MBTs have been hauled up and positioned along the LAC. On August 18, 2013, the Tibet Military Command (TMC) of the PLA conducted a wartime river-crossing support drill organized by an engineer regiment in the waters of the Yarlung Tsangpo River. The regiment conducted the drill with new-type heavy pontoon bridge equipment.10

The PLA's ace card is however it's Construction Corps workforce, a highly efficient and disciplined force that can roll out metaled roads during war. Gravel roads on the LAC enable better water drainage during the monsoons as well as avoids Indian radar, which the PLA has taken full advantage of, having the quick capability of converting gravel roads to black topped. The PLA has an edge over the Indian Army at the LAC since it is not tasked to maintain a constant physical vigil, rather content with the usage of networked and remotely-controlled surveillance systems. These surveillance capabilities are augmented with strategically built barren flat ground patches along the LAC to serve as helipads for deploying Rapid Reaction Forces (RRF) whenever required.

The RRF, also called the 'Resolving Emergency Mobile Combat Forces (REMCF)' is the PLA's rapid strike force. The airborne RRF are strategically located within TAR and can be rapidly deployed within 48 hours on the LAC through the network of medium-lift and attack helicopters. The PLA deployment on the LAC opposite Arunachal Pradesh is drawn from the General Army bases in Chengdu and Yunnan. Interestingly, the flanking maneuvers of airborne units combined with jungle warfare training of the PLA units have been strategized to unleash the localized blitzkrieg effect. These efforts are vindicated by dual-use airports near the LAC at Shigatse Pingan and Ngari Gunsa in addition to Lhasa, Nyingchi, and Qamdo airports.11 The surface transportation backbone in the TAR include highways, the railway line and oil pipeline from Gormo to Lhasa, the eastern highway from Chengdu to Lhasa and the western highway running along the LAC though Aksai Chin.

Policy Insights
Three critical policy insights can be drawn from China's intrusions across the LAC and military development in TAR and neighboring areas.

First, China's repeated intrusions are bolstered by its rapid military infrastructure development in its own border regions.

Second, China feels compelled to showcase its military presence to India across the LAC due to its own "vulnerability perception" and lack of political legitimacy in Tibet. China is deeply suspicious about the intentions of the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan-Government in Exile in India. China interprets India's support to the Dalai Lama as a long term Indian strategic objective to free Tibet from China. Hence, any increase in Indian military presence near the LAC is viewed, not only as Indian assertiveness on the border but also connected to plausible Indian plans to provide support to a restive Tibetan population in Tibet.

Third, the US "pivot to Asia" policy has only made China more aggressive with regard to its territorial claims as is seen by its unilateral declaration of an "Air Defence Identification Zone (ADIZ)" over the disputed islands in the East China Sea. The new President Xi Jinping is apparently following an aggressive Chinese posture with regard to its territorial claims. India must therefore remain alert to the fact that escalation across the LAC is likely despite the BDCA. Moreover, India must game out the likely security consequences if China decides to suddenly impose a similar unilateral ADIZ over Arunachal Pradesh.

Chinese intrusions across the LAC | Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses
 

Zebra

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TATA is already offering FMBT under buy and make catagory, What is important here is TATA can make MBT and IFV but cannot design them, TATA, Mahindra and others are simply under Buy and Make catagory ..
Can they make type 10 MBT? Under buy and make category. ;)
 

Kunal Biswas

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Sir, The photos shows Chinese part of Tibet which have plenty of flat surface and large valleys but here is Indian roads and terrain ..


Leh Tibet .

Arunachal pradesh

Sikkim areas
^^ Tanks have to be mobile to transfer from one valley to another by roads only, Any vehicle weight 48 - 50tons cannot move or maneuver over these roads, There are selected areas where tanks above 40 tons can operate but can be only transported via Air in Our case, The deployment of T-72 and T-90 are only in these areas, Besides the engines are not design to operate in these altitudes ..


Only light tanks can move these areas ..
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Chinese Light tank and Assault Guns ..



Recently a new light tank appeared in China. First pictures of the new tank appeared back in 2010. The whole project is being kept in secrecy. There were no official comments regarding this new tank. It's Designation is also unknown. It was developed specially for mountainous terrain, such as Tibet, jungles and river regions. Other sources report, that this tank is already in service with Chinese Army. The new tank has an entirely new design. It weights about 30-35 t. Mobility is the key factor of this new machine. It is intended mainly for reconnaissance and infantry support operations. It will operate in terrains that are not accessible to heavier main battle tanks. It might be also used by airborne troops. It is worth noting that the Indian T-72 or T-90 main battle tanks can not go high in to the mountains. At high altitudes air becomes thin and their engines start to loose power. So high in the mountains the new Chinese tank should not encounter any heavily-armored opponents.
Source : http://www.military-today.com/tanks/new_chinese_light_tank.htm

^^ Chinese are focus on making their own light tank, They know the terrain and the limitation they have on their MBT like Type-96 as the same we have with our T-72/90 and Arjuns ..

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100mm assualt guns


The PTL02 is armed with a 100-mm high-pressure smoothbore gun, developed from the Type 86 towed anti-tank gun. It fires APFSDS, HEAT and HE rounds. Vehicle carries 30 rounds for the main gun. This gun can engage lightly armored vehicles, however is unable to destroy modern main battle tanks
.

As of now Such vehicles can operate over Indian infrastructure and terrain, We have no equivalent to these vehicles ..

===================

@Kunal

TRISHUL: Weapons Deployed Inside TAR For On-Going PLA Exercises

What will be the staying power of Light Tanks in TAR?
 
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Ray

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@Kunal,

I have operated on both sides of the LAC as it pertains to us.

Without getting into details, on the western side, there are adequate tank runs of operational import.

On the Eastern side, it may not be in the classical tank manoeuvring space.

Now, if we are to operate in TAR, what chance has the Light Armour when confronted with the Chinese MBT or heavier tanks?

And if they come in, with their MBTs/heavier tanks than their Light tanks, what chance has any Light Tank that we deploy have?

What tanks are there in the Eastern Sector?

And what chance has Chinese Light tanks in the Eastern or Western Sectors?
 
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Kunal Biswas

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Sir, Today`s tanks are equipped with Addon armors, Which can be mounted when needed at field facility making it to withstand bigger caliber shells ..

These tanks also have armament same as MBTs that is in 120mm, These light tanks are also armed with Active and passive protection system to deflect and confuse enemy anti-tank missiles ..

Over all, If their is an encounter, The light tank of today can hold its ground ..

Now, if we are to operate in TAR, what chance has the Light Armour when confronted with the Chinese MBT or heavier tanks?

And if they come in, with their MBTs/heavier tanks than their Light tanks, what chance has any Light Tank that we deploy have?
====================

Sir, Chinese light tank can operate in both sectors, Chinese are testing their light tank in Tar for sometime now since 2010, besides deployment of Type-96, On Indian part its T-72 and T-55, BMP-2 ICV is an exception which can move through narrow roads, It weight is lot lesser hence can go to most roads design for vehicles ..

What tanks are there in the Eastern Sector?

And what chance has Chinese Light tanks in the Eastern or Western Sectors?
 

Ray

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It is worth noting that the Indian T-72 or T-90 main battle tanks can not go high in to the mountains. At high altitudes air becomes thin and their engines start to loose power. So high in the mountains the new Chinese tank should not encounter any heavily-armored opponents.
Note the ignorance of the statement in bold.

Marketing at best.

These tanks also have armament same as MBTs that is in 120mm, These light tanks are also armed with Active and passive protection system to deflect and confuse enemy anti-tank missiles ..

Over all, If their is an encounter, The light tank of today can hold its ground ..
Having a same calibre tank main gun does not in anyway give protection.

Now if a light tank of today can hold its ground in any encounter, isn't it daft to have heavier tanks at greater costs and negative logistic & operational flexibility being manufactured?

Let us not get enamoured because the US has manufactured the Stryker. Stryker was for a special purpose.
 
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Ray

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Sir, They are operating but modified and their are limitation ..
Even B Vehicles are modified to cater for the High Altitude and so are the tanks.

There is no limitation that I noticed when I was there, and to be frank, I was there is a position where if things went wrong, my head would roll and I would be damned if I would allow my head to go so cheap.

Everything, including humans lose efficiency in High Altitude except the locals. Machines can be boosted but not with that efficiency the humans.

But this requires an answer
Now if a light tank of today can hold its ground in any encounter, isn't it daft to have heavier tanks at greater costs and negative logistic & operational flexibility being manufactured?
 

Kunal Biswas

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Sir, These light tanks with Addons can take direct hits from MBTs, Without Addon they don't stand much, But addons have their limitations too ..

Such addons are not strong as a MBT`s composite Armour as its very heavy due to heavier metals, Hence Addons are lighter made of mainly composites and can take hits but their protection is not strong as an MBT`s ..

Now if a light tank of today can hold its ground in any encounter, isn't it daft to have heavier tanks at greater costs and negative logistic & operational flexibility being manufactured?[/B].
 

sgarg

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Are you aware how much it would take to lay the assembly lines and stations to manufacture a tank?
Are you aware that in the US without Congress funding, no weapon can be designed/manufactured/maintained/upgraded et al by the commercial vendor?

Is TATA capable of stand alone manufacture?

Would TATA or any other be willing to embark on military weaponry manufacturer without a guaranteed order?

Would the military accept unproved weaponry?

Food for thought.
Bharat Forge built artillery and Tata built artillery without orders from Army. Food for thought.

You have no idea how much local industry has progressed. You need to go visit modern Indian factories.

You will be surprised by the progress made by civilian industry.

The fact is that the government sector is seriously behind private industry's capability.

We are talking manufacturing here, not design. Let DRDO design a tank and give to Tata for manufacturing.

Who will pay for the tank - obviously government will pay.

If HFV can build a tank, sure a Tata can too.

If you ask the private company to pay for the tank; I would reverse the question to you - who pays the price of the tank when HVF builds it? Is HVF paying for the tank?
 

sgarg

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The economics for building an equipment does not change just because it is built by government sector.

When the factory is inefficient, the whole cycle of production and improvement suffers.
 

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