Indian Aircraft carriers are sitting ducks against most of today's weapons

[Adioz]

well,
1. 3 AC so so is enough for CHina to police its interest overseas ,including protects its sealane from bothers from regions powers like India.

2.If 3 AC groups were not prevent the bothering, then it would be time to show-hands,instead of police mission.

3.nuke subs/large birds say B2/ICBM are showing-hands weapons, instead of AC.

I disagree with points 1 and 3.
Counter-point 1: 3 ACs mean 2CVBGs operational at once (peacetime). You going to deploy them to your neighbour's backyard (Indian ocean) or keep your own backyard safe (south and east China seas)?
Counter-point 3: ICBM is not an option. Your leaders do not want to go down that road just to protect your SLOCs. ICBMs are a measure of last resort. SSBNs are again, not very effective if the Malacca straits are blocked as there is only one direction from where they can approach. Could you please explain large birds?

I agree with point no. 2.
This is regarding your Wu-14; when developed it can be a lethal weapon and perfect for showing-hands (if it could ever achieve a CEP that Df-21D claims to have).
But this is effective only in war-time as you will not simply launch a Wu-14 if the Navy tries to block Malacca.... right?

 

[no smoking]

China cannot block Indian oil until it blockades a choke-point. The only choke-point is the Persian gulf, which China can never block. If they try doing this near Pakistan, it will simply push the SLOCs south since it is not a choke-point.

Well, they are not trying to block India 100%. All they need to do is sinking couple of India oil tanks on their way back to India ports. What will India do? She will have to move her navy fleet back to those seas to protect her own oil tanks, which means she can't block Andaman anymore.

Andaman (Malacca straits) is a choke-point for China but not for Japan or South Korea as they can make their oil travel through Java sea, then Celebes sea and then straight to them without using the Chinese seas at all.

First of all, that will dramatically increase their shipping cost, is India going to reimburse that?

And a question, what make you think that Chinese can't use the same route? Through Java Sea->Celebes sea and then China sea. What can India do in China sea? Or, even don't go China sea since there are plenty of ports in northern China.

The Chinese cannot emulate that as their cargo would then pass through territory practically controlled by its adversaries. South American oil can also be intercepted by U.S.N. with relative ease.

So, now you admit that India ALONE can't block China. You need South East Asian countries, Russia and USA to help you. Wow!

And why do you think Chinese need to disguise as their cargo? Chinese can simply set up companies in Korea, Japan and Taiwan, buying oil through these companies, which will make their cargo to ship Chinese oil. How you stop that? Oh, yes, you will need Koreans, Japanese and Taiwanese on your side as well.

If you can make that happen, why bother to block Chinese around Andaman?

 

[Adioz]

Well, they are not trying to block India 100%. All they need to do is sinking couple of India oil tanks on their way back to India ports. What will India do? She will have to move her navy fleet back to those seas to protect her own oil tanks, which means she can't block Andaman anymore.

The entire point of having seperate fleets within the navy is that a single action (like the blockade) does not tie down all of its assets. What you are saying is akin to saying that if China attacked India while we were at war with Pakistan, we would have to move the army to our northern borders and remove troops deployed in our western theater of operations.

And a question, what make you think that Chinese can't use the same route? Through Java Sea->Celebes sea and then China sea. What can India do in China sea? Or, even don't go China sea since there are plenty of ports in northern China.

We live in a world where China is perceived as a threat by most countries surrounding it. Then we have the U.S., that is looking for an excuse to nail down China so that it does not rise. We do not need to do anything (apart from blocking Malacca).
The entry to Java sea has Diego Garcia and Australia looking over it.

So, now you admit that India ALONE can't block China. You need South East Asian countries, Russia and USA to help you. Wow!
And why do you think Chinese need to disguise as their cargo? Chinese can simply set up companies in Korea, Japan and Taiwan, buying oil through these companies, which will make their cargo to ship Chinese oil. How you stop that? Oh, yes, you will need Koreans, Japanese and Taiwanese on your side as well.
If you can make that happen, why bother to block Chinese around Andaman?

I NEVER implied the blockade was going to be enough to completely block Chinese oil. Even the U.S.N. can't do that. We need popular vote on our side. We have it.
Chinese will definitely try and disguise their ships. And they might try the fake company route. But then what are intelligence agencies for? To prevent that from happening by identifying Chinese disguised vessels and busting the fake company.
We only need covert help from Korea and Japan. They do not need to go to war with China overtly. They are already at war covertly with China.
Overtly, we only need one ally, the U.S. who should be perfectly delighted at such a proposition.

 

[no smoking]

The entire point of having seperate fleets within the navy is that a single action (like the blockade) does not tie down all of its assets. What you are saying is akin to saying that if China attacked India while we were at war with Pakistan, we would have to move the army to our northern borders and remove troops deployed in our western theater of operations.

Well, my point is India doesn't have the necessary number to do the 2 jobs at the same time.

We live in a world where China is perceived as a threat by most countries surrounding it.

So what? None of them is going to join a war against China unless China push them into the war.

And we are also living in a world where India is perceived as a threat by most countries surrounding it.

Then we have the U.S., that is looking for an excuse to nail down China so that it does not rise. We do not need to do anything (apart from blocking Malacca).
The entry to Java sea has Diego Garcia and Australia looking over it.

Americans was already there since the end of WW2 while Chinese battleship can be barely seen until today. I just wonder who they are really staring at.

I NEVER implied the blockade was going to be enough to completely block Chinese oil.

Even the U.S.N. can't do that. We need popular vote on our side. We have it.

No, India can't block at all simply because you don't have necessary power to cover such a huge area.
And NO, U.S.N can do it. They can block China's sea transportation.
And no, you don't have the popular vote because there is no such vote.

Chinese will definitely try and disguise their ships. And they might try the fake company route. But then what are intelligence agencies for? To prevent that from happening by identifying Chinese disguised vessels and busting the fake company.
We only need covert help from Korea and Japan. They do not need to go to war with China overtly. They are already at war covertly with China.

Yes, of course, their national leaders told you face to face, right? What else did they tell you? The colour of their underwear?

Overtly, we only need one ally, the U.S. who should be perfectly delighted at such a proposition.

Well, American is not that stupid. They will simply sell you weapons to keep you fighting until the last drop of India blood. Think about Afghanistan and Vietnam.

 

[Victor3]

so what is your solution then?

 

[no smoking]

so what is your solution then?

My solution? Playing the chicken and let others to do the job for you: Chinese won't come to India Ocean in next 20-30 years and Americans are moving their forces into west Pacific to contain Chinese. You have a golden opportunity t set up the real dominance in your neighbourhood. All you need to do is: don't force No1 and No2 power to focus on you and let them to kill each other.

 

[grampiguy]

There is a better way. Join the No. 1 force in the world as a key partner and crush the no. 2 power to ground. That way, the oppressed people of a totalitarian dictatorship i.e. Force No. 2, will be free and true peace will prevail in the world of democracies ;-)))

Power to the Democratic "QUAD".

 

[Adioz]

Well, my point is India doesn't have the necessary number to do the 2 jobs at the same time.
So what? None of them is going to join a war against China unless China push them into the war.
And we are also living in a world where India is perceived as a threat by most countries surrounding it.
Americans was already there since the end of WW2 while Chinese battleship can be barely seen until today. I just wonder who they are really staring at.
No, India can't block at all simply because you don't have necessary power to cover such a huge area.
And NO, U.S.N can do it. They can block China's sea transportation.
And no, you don't have the popular vote because there is no such vote.
Yes, of course, their national leaders told you face to face, right? What else did they tell you? The colour of their underwear?
Well, American is not that stupid. They will simply sell you weapons to keep you fighting until the last drop of India blood. Think about Afghanistan and Vietnam.

My solution? Playing the chicken and let others to do the job for you: Chinese won't come to India Ocean in next 20-30 years and Americans are moving their forces into west Pacific to contain Chinese. You have a golden opportunity to set up the real dominance in your neighbourhood. All you need to do is: don't force No1 and No2 power to focus on you and let them to kill each other.

You think China and U.S. are blind? Have they not already taken note of Indian Navy's modernization?
They will not kill each other. Remember the cold war? They are going to fight proxy wars using countries near them and will try to prevent a direct confrontation for as long as possible.
Exactly!!! We have a golden opportunity NOW to modernize our forces because the dragon is only going to grow stronger with time. Rather you want us to play weak, not modernize our forces, and not draw attention?

No, India can't block at all simply because you don't have necessary power to cover such a huge area.
And NO, U.S.N can do it. They can block China's sea transportation.
And no, you don't have the popular vote because there is no such vote.

You say we don't have popular vote? Are you trying to say that a military alliance that U.S. is trying to forge to contain China will never actually work?
And NO U.S.N. CANNOT single-handedly block Chinese oil. Why? Because they need to block the straits of Malacca, Sunda and Lombok which will effectively involve an alliance with ASEAN. Their trade is significantly affected.

So what? None of them is going to join a war against China unless China push them into the war.

You just said that India needs to stop drawing attention and let the Chinese and Americans battle it out. Aren't you contradicting yourself?

Yes, of course, their national leaders told you face to face, right? What else did they tell you? The colour of their underwear?

Do you disagree that Japanese and Taiwanese intelligence agencies will rather help India than China? They cannot sit by idly.

 

[no smoking]

There is a better way. Join the No. 1 force in the world as a key partner and crush the no. 2 power to ground. That way, the oppressed people of a totalitarian dictatorship i.e. Force No. 2, will be free and true peace will prevail in the world of democracies ;-)))

Power to the Democratic "QUAD".

Unfortunately, none of these 2 is stupid as you think. No 1 and No 2 are trying their best to avoid a total war which is the only way your strategy can work. Furthermore, both No 1 and No 2 are keeping an eye on India when they are kept busy in west pacific, that is why Pakistan is still receiving weapons and money from these 2 countries.

 

[no smoking]

You say we don't have popular vote? Are you trying to say that a military alliance that U.S. is trying to forge to contain China will never actually work?

No, US is not rying to forge a military alliance. You two just want to take a free ride with the other side.

And NO U.S.N. CANNOT single-handedly block Chinese oil. Why? Because they need to block the straits of Malacca, Sunda and Lombok which will effectively involve an alliance with ASEAN. Their trade is significantly affected.

No, USAN doesn't need the cooperation from Aseans on blocking Chinese. They have their own navy bases in Middle East and Indian Ocean. And none of these Asian countries has enough power to challenge that.

You just said that India needs to stop drawing attention and let the Chinese and Americans battle it out. Aren't you contradicting yourself?

How I contracted myself?

Do you disagree that Japanese and Taiwanese intelligence agencies will rather help India than China? They cannot sit by idly.

First of all, you have to realise we are talking about an India-China war, not a war between China and USA, these countries bear no obligation to help India. So, it depends on how much India could offer for their to give up billions dollars profit from oil transportation to China. Basically, Chinese could just buy oil from Japan publically, Japanese can't reject it unless she declare an embargo on China, which in return will risk her over 300 billions trade with China each year. I don't think India can compensate that.

For Taiwanese, you my have to prepare something worse.

In 1962, it was ROC guaranteed PRC that she wouldn't attack during Sino-India war;
In 1970s, it was ROC again provided water supply to Chinese warships which were fighting Vietnamese;
Even today, ROC and PRC navies are still helping each other against other Asian countries in South China Sea.

 

[Victor3]

My solution? Playing the chicken and let others to do the job for you: Chinese won't come to India Ocean in next 20-30 years and Americans are moving their forces into west Pacific to contain Chinese. You have a golden opportunity t set up the real dominance in your neighbourhood. All you need to do is: don't force No1 and No2 power to focus on you and let them to kill each other.

they will have a look on india too. point is usa and china cant fight lot of enemy at once. so my proposal will be that all countryes in the asian space to play for own. have own programs of weapon create own powerfull economy and own interests in zone. if are troubles you just threaten that you ally with all small countryes in zone and no care for china and usa wich despite the fact they are powerfull they are less in number and they dont have so much natural resources on their land

 

[sabari]

as for "navelblocked by india",pls check the range of DF21/DF21D..
if DF21/DF21D can make the red/yellow areas "No-go Zone" of USA AC group, it will be one to India navy.
View attachment 5751

Df 21
Df UOTE="badguy2000, post: 1067655, member: 334"]as for "navelblocked by india",pls check the range of DF21/DF21D..
if DF21/DF21D can make the red/yellow areas "No-go Zone" of USA AC group, it will be one to India navy.
View attachment 5751[/QUOTE]

Df 21 will be easy to detect and the time at which it reach the target the ship would have sailed away to some other place

 

[Yumdoot]

Why are people able to believe :
1) that an ASAT weapon can target a satellite in orbit,
2) that a orbiting HTK weapon can target a fast moving missile or even
3) that a ground based missile can target a small warhead,

while at the same time disbelieving that a AShBM can hit a lousy lumbering buffalo.

Guess a CBG lives by the principle of '1 ghazi equal to 10 hindus'. :biggrin2:

Or is it a case of no permission granted by Americans to believe such a thing is possible.

 

[DFI_COAS]

some guys mocked for starting this thread.Look how it turned out!

 

[Yumdoot]

defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/chinas-combined-arms-saturation-attack-video.70074/


This thread has a video that I had watched yesterday and I was waiting for US chamchas to say something. I don't think they are going to, now. They are too blinded by their love for US to see what the rest of the world is doing.

Anyhow for Indians who are less interested in US well being and more interested in Indian well being, and who are not going to allow their judgement suffer because of the rather stupid thread title - These Anti-Ship BMs are going to be worked upon by India too and the video at 2:32 shows how it works. Implying thereby that this is how it will work for India too. We are all used to seeing the porpoise maneuver. That is what the two super powers had revealed. Now obviously this long and detailed video did not come out of china without some kind of oversight by the 'authorities'. And if this hunch is right then perhaps, China has just revealed one step further from the bland, porpoise maneuver.

Notice at 2:32 the multiple and highly controlled small attitude controls (just enough to beat the ABMs-merely a few hundred meters worth of maneuvers) shown for the anti-ship RVs. Also notice the RVs are show racing towards a CBG in full speed motion and that too hitting almost all the CBG flotilla including he irritating Aegis classes.

Hope you know what could be made to happen if we Indians start to love ourselves and our own projects instead of loving the americans, like some of us (suffering from an education in convent/public schools) do.

Have no doubt the Americans and Russians already have this in their inventories in various forms. Let us not get carried away to the point that we convince ourselves of the futility of a good idea merely based on the prejudice of some.

 

[DFI_COAS]

Sorry folks! This post was a troll bait but I've read something relevant to this thread.
https://www.rt.com/usa/333356-us-aircraft-carriers-useless/

 

[garg_bharat]

I agree that an aircraft carrier based strategy of IN is flawed.

It is better to have more number of frigate size ships.

More submarines definitely.

A sea denial strategy is better as india cannot viably engage in sea control.

 

[garg_bharat]

With extensive satellite surveillance 24x7, it is very difficult to hide large ships.

Smaller ships can control their radar and visible signatures much better.

Protecting aircraft carrier is big headache.

I think better to invest in longer range aircraft and more airbases.