Indian Aircraft carriers are sitting ducks against most of today's weapons

[DFI_COAS]

I spent more than 4 days of research on Naval warfare in today's world and I've concluded one thing.Aircraft carriers are totally obsolete.Pardon me for not writing a big essay on this issue.But I'll give you a brief idea on why I reached this conclusion.



Case 1 - Dong-Feng 21

Currently Indian navy do not have any counter measures against such weapons.Once China decides to use it then we all can say RIP our IACs.
Speed,Accuracy and with the help of China's current military navigation satellites it won't miss the moving or stationary targets.

Case 2 - Pakistan Missiles(preemptive strikes)

Again China's military navigation satellites can easily track the moving IAC battle groups and can successfully destroy it.None of the countermeasures in our arsenal can defend against 10s of missiles at a time.Again RIP to our IACs


Case 3 - Rogue fishing boats and trawlers

If all goes well an enemy combat boat(it can either be a fishing boat or a trawler in disguise) full of heavy explosives and combatants can damage an IAC.The chances of that happening are slim but still this cannot be ruled out.


Case 4 - Attacks similar to USS Cole bombing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Cole_bombing
Hope you'll read it.

Case 5 - Undercover agents in our IACs

Who knows how many Pak/Chinese agents are on our IAcs!
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/12/0...legedly-gave-undercover-agent-info-on-how-to/

tl;dr Indian Aircraft Carrirers are doomed.


Before posting reply.Remember this

Pakistan is rogue nation which has a history of carrying out terrorist activities and denying them.It has no honur.It has no ethics.It exists for the sole purpose of wiping out India and it's cultural history from the Asian continent.Every one of us should take this fact into consideration before planning/giving opinions on Indian and Pakistan issues.


Some Helpful Links:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_of_the_Indian_Navy
http://www.wired.com/2012/03/killing-chinas-carrier-killer/
http://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/2w6lw2/til_that_in_1972_some_of_aircraft_carrier_uss/
http://www.lowyinterpreter.org/post/2014/08/22/Nuclear-weapons-and-Pakistans-naval-strategy.aspx
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/12/0...legedly-gave-undercover-agent-info-on-how-to/
https://www.quora.com/How-daunting-...-protected-by-a-typical-deployed-strike-group

 

[DFI_COAS]

Destroying an Indian Aircraft carrier and its supporting strike group gives the enemy tremendous morale boost to win the war.After losing 1000s of Indian Sailors and most of the naval power in a short period of time, do you really think we will be able to continue the war? and at the same time it can also destroy the overall morale of remaining Indian Military forces and the entire Republic of India.May it might be the start of Indian Balkanization?Who knows!

 

[ezsasa]

Destroying an Indian Aircraft carrier and its supporting strike group gives the enemy tremendous morale boost to win the war.After losing 1000s of Indian Sailors and most of the naval power in a short period of time, do you really think we will be able to continue the war? and at the same time it can also destroy the overall morale of remaining Indian Military forces and the entire Republic of India.May it might be the start of Indian Balkanization?Who knows!

Welcome and please introduce yourself in members section.

 

[Srinivas_K]

An Aircraft Career is not a single ship it is a part of a group which consists of many ships, sub marines, fighter jets, satellites and air borne radars.

Plus there are doctrines which will guide the CBG's to engage, it is not as simple as operating a single ship.

Regarding DF 21 and other missiles CBGs do have counter measures like air defense missiles.

Chinese have to launch a missile to attack aircraft career and there is enough time to detect and eliminate the threat using ABM's.

Secondly if Chinese launch the DF 21 against Indian aircraft career then it is a signal that both the nations are waging full fledged war which may result in nuclear exchange, I doubt things will go that far.

So under Nuclear umberella Aircraft career is a good means to project India's power, So India should build more sophisticated Aircraft careers that are comparable to US Nimitz class.

 

[DFI_COAS]

Welcome and please introduce yourself in members section.

:biggrin2: May be tomorrow ! (united we stand divided we fall)

 

[jackprince]

I spent more than 4 days of research on Naval warfare in today's world and I've concluded one thing.Aircraft carriers are totally obsolete.Pardon me for not writing a big essay on this issue.But I'll give you a brief idea on why I reached this conclusion.

4 days only!???? You need to study more. It is like taking admission in college and saying that you know whether the latest thesis of the Ph. D. scholar is BS, because you have taken admission in college.

Case 1 - Dong-Feng 21

Currently Indian navy do not have any counter measures against such weapons.Once China decides to use it then we all can say RIP our IACs.
Speed,Accuracy and with the help of China's current military navigation satellites it won't miss the moving or stationary targets.

What do you mean India doesn't have counter to those missiles? The AC is a counter in itself. The AC is a moving target and DF-21 is a ballistic missile. So, when DF-21 is launched it will be launched with data about positioning of AC which is old already when it will be re-entering the atmosphere and with such high-speed, even if china has built in some kind of end maneuvering system in the re-entry vehicle, it hardly can hit the AC directly. And, unless it can hit directly, however big HE warhead it might be carrying, it will not scratch a AC of 40000 to 65000 ton AC. It may damage one or two smaller ships, though unlikely given absence of direct hit. We can safely keep nuclear warhead outside of calcualtion, as China is mature enough not to use one, as it will cause for an imidiate retaliation from NOT ONLY India, but others too. Also, even if nuclear warhead is used, then too proximity would play a big role. You might like to study the experiments USA did with their AC with nuclear warhead blast.

There's a dedicated thread in this fora somewhere about ineffectiveness of DF-21. Study it there.

Case 2 - Pakistan Missiles(preemptive strikes)

Again China's military navigation satellites can easily track the moving IAC battle groups and can successfully destroy it.None of the countermeasures in our arsenal can defend against 10s of missiles at a time.Again RIP to our IACs

Actually, we have a counter-measure that is called distance and preemptive strike on the pakistan missile batteries. You have to understand that if and when an AC battlegroup is positioned toward Pakistan, it will be at high alert and it will have its own dedicated AD ships. The Indian military drones, Humint and satellites will be searching every surface of pakistan shores for missile batteries, and all assets of India will be targeting them before they are fired. The AC battlegroup will never be close to Paki shore as the fighters have enough legs on them to let the AC battlegroup stay at a distance. Also, there's a matter of how effective Paki missiles actually are.

Also, 10s of missiles are hardly likely to bother a AC battlegroup, as it will consist of dozens of ships with their own AD missiles and includes dedicated AD ships.

Case 3 - Rogue fishing boats and trawlers

If all goes well an enemy combat boat(it can either be a fishing boat or a trawler in disguise) full of heavy explosives and combatants can damage an IAC.The chances of that happening are slim but still this cannot be ruled out.

No civilian ship, however small are not ever allowed to get closer to any combat ships, let alone a Aircarft Career. So, it is a non-issue.

Case 4 - Attacks similar to USS Cole bombing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Cole_bombing
Hope you'll read it.

It is not case-4, but an example of case-3.

Case 5 - Undercover agents in our IACs

Who knows how many Pak/Chinese agents are on our IAcs!

Probable. But in which capacity, that is the main question. Also, I would say our counter-intelligence people will be double screening anyone who can get access to an AC.

tl;dr Indian Aircraft Carrirers are doomed.

A completely useless comment.

Before posting reply.Remember this

Pakistan is rogue nation which has a history of carrying out terrorist activities and denying them.It has no honur.It has no ethics.It exists for the sole purpose of wiping out India and it's cultural history from the Asian continent.Every one of us should take this fact into consideration before planning/giving opinions on Indian and Pakistan issues.

Well, guys here know this, may be better than most people.

Some Helpful Links:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_of_the_Indian_Navy
http://www.wired.com/2012/03/killing-chinas-carrier-killer/
http://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/2w6lw2/til_that_in_1972_some_of_aircraft_carrier_uss/
http://www.lowyinterpreter.org/post/2014/08/22/Nuclear-weapons-and-Pakistans-naval-strategy.aspx
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/12/0...legedly-gave-undercover-agent-info-on-how-to/
https://www.quora.com/How-daunting-...-protected-by-a-typical-deployed-strike-group

Seeing the listed links, I really would like to advice to study more on the matter before arguing a point. I guess, if you really want to learn, then jump right in and study the relevent threads here in this very forum where you will find loads of opinions, discussion supported by studies and links.

It is a very poor example of your study that you have shown. there are dozens more counter-points to your post that can be given by the members here, who are 'veteran' in the subject. But, I think I have given you enough points to reconsider that you need to learn more.

 

[Rowdy]

Well I'm convinced I'm gonna write a letter to Manohar parrikar to junk our Aircraft Carrier plans. Thanks random guy on internet, whom I don't even know for changing my mind.

 

[pmaitra]

Destroying an Indian Aircraft carrier and its supporting strike group gives the enemy tremendous morale boost to win the war.After losing 1000s of Indian Sailors and most of the naval power in a short period of time, do you really think we will be able to continue the war? and at the same time it can also destroy the overall morale of remaining Indian Military forces and the entire Republic of India.May it might be the start of Indian Balkanization?Who knows!

Welcome to DFI.

Interesting nomme-de-plume. So you are DFI_COAS? You write like DFI_Java_Programmer.

What is war.After? What is India.May? I know what is Integer.parseInt(. . .).

Put a space after the full stop, and do not put a space before the full stop.

 

[Zebra]

"Indian Aircraft carriers are sitting ducks against most of today's weapons"

Why only aircraft carriers?

Which platform is unbreakable, I wonder.
You name it.....MBTs , fighter aircrafts, destroyers, frigates, submarines, armored personnel carriers, helicopters.

 

[Rowdy]

"Indian Aircraft carriers are sitting ducks against most of today's weapons"

Why only aircraft carriers?

Which platform is unbreakable, I wonder.
You name it.....MBTs , fighter aircrafts, destroyers, frigates, submarines, armored personnel carriers, helicopters.

Whole of indian landmass is a sitting duck as it hardly moves

 

[aliyah]

conclusion :- ppl who dont know anything about Navy or army and how they work have really wild imaginations.
here even some gangster of D gang can sink an aircraft carrier.......hahahahahaha

 

[no smoking]

I spent more than 4 days of research on Naval warfare in today's world and I've concluded one thing.Aircraft carriers are totally obsolete.Pardon me for not writing a big essay on this issue.But I'll give you a brief idea on why I reached this conclusion.
......

Ok, boy, before you waste more on this kind of research, let me help you save your time.
India doesn't even need to worry about DF21D if it is operational.
Why? Because DF21D is not a weapon to sink carriers but a weapon preventing these carriers from entering the war zone. Even today, a US navy consists of 6-7 carriers is a force that Chinese can't handle. But for India, Chinese doesn't have this worry. India need to worry about the 300 J11BS, J16 and JH7A, not DF21D.

 

[Bheeshma]

LoL The Ding dong 21 is only useful if the carrier decides to stop moving and stays in one place. Only chinese are stupid enough to test in a desert again chalk lines and call a test a success. India already has A-3/4/5 and superior MKI and now Rafale coming in. The useless J11, JH7A (mediocre jaguar copy) won't last very long in a war.

 

[Yusuf]

4 days of studies have proved every strategist, naval officers who swear by a carrier wrong.

No seriously,

1) DF-21 at best is a theory.
2) DF-21 with its range cannot reach our carriers in the Indian Ocean it's to deny US carriers from coming close to Chinese waters

3) Pak is rogue state agree but it can't get close to our carrier which moves with other ships.

4) What holds good for carriers also holds good for other ships. We might as well abandon navy.

5) Undercover agents on our ship will come from where? MP & counter Intel is for what?

 

[charlie]

it's not worth to comment i guess, can someone please remove this post

 

[sob]

Next time just try to think rationally before you post a theory, whether it is enough to hold water against basic reasoning.

Good effort to think out of box.

 

[CrYsIs]

He is not entirely wrong.

Aircraft carrier is a great asset for rich navies like that of US and UK but we are cash strapped.Our Naval budget is only 10 billion $.Henceforth we should prioritize our spending.

Buying,Building,operating and maintaining an Aircraft carrier is an extremely expensive affair,that's why only a handful of countries posses it.

I was always against the procurement of INS Vikramaditya as i see it as more of a liability than an asset..The 3 billion $ spent on Gorskhov would better have been spent on much needed nuclear and AIP subs.


And look at the history of India's Aircraft carrier operations.

The Indian carrier INS Vikranth 1 saw action in 1961 Goa liberation war and 1971 Bangladesh liberation war.
In the former,we didn't face much of a challenge because the Portuguese had nearly no naval asset to speak off.

In the case of later,the prospect of Pakistani subs prevented India from operating the A/C in the western front.

The ship saw action in the eastern front where the Pakistanis had very small naval asset and their defenses were extremely weakened.

Infact India's old and outdated missile boats proved to be the real game changer when they bombard Karachi.

 

[Bheeshma]

In 1970 the missile boats were neither old nor outdated. They were in fact the harbingers of the new Anti ship missile era and bought the demise of the old gun boats. If you don't know the facts stop making up nonsense.Vikrant with a boiler defect was restricted to the eastern sea board.

 

[swastic_1170]

The tittle is really not making any sense..

 

[jackprince]

He is not entirely wrong.

Aircraft carrier is a great asset for rich navies like that of US and UK but we are cash strapped.Our Naval budget is only 10 billion $.Henceforth we should prioritize our spending.

Buying,Building,operating and maintaining an Aircraft carrier is an extremely expensive affair,that's why only a handful of countries posses it.

I was always against the procurement of INS Vikramaditya as i see it as more of a liability than an asset..The 3 billion $ spent on Gorskhov would better have been spent on much needed nuclear and AIP subs.

When a nation of 1.2 billion with 7500 KMs of coastline has one arch-rival residing next door and another building up its navy in the fast pace, doesn't have a competent navy, it is asking for getting screwed over. India needs ACs to keep the maritime supremacy it has in IOR to not only to protect its own interest, but also for projection of power and assurance to its allys and potential allys, when giving warning to outsiders. AC battlegroup is a show of force which dozens of submarines cannot do. Also, AC carries aircrafts which has its unique effectiveness, and multiple role to play.

And look at the history of India's Aircraft carrier operations.

The Indian carrier INS Vikranth 1 saw action in 1961 Goa liberation war and 1971 Bangladesh liberation war.
In the former,we didn't face much of a challenge because the Portuguese had nearly no naval asset to speak off.

In the case of later,the prospect of Pakistani subs prevented India from operating the A/C in the western front.

The ship saw action in the eastern front where the Pakistanis had very small naval asset and their defenses were extremely weakened.

Infact India's old and outdated missile boats proved to be the real game changer when they bombard Karachi.

That is why we need 3 ACs and also 200 ship-strong fleet, to deny Pakis the western front to. If the next full-scale war breaks out, the ACs will see action. Don't doubt it.

Further, IOR is a huge place and it is highly important strategically to keep Indian dominance over it. Without ACs, IN's leg will be short and will not be very effective in a time of possible threat by Chinese Navy. Given the new found interest of China in IOR, it will be stupid of India to ignore the IOR.