Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

kharabela

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2022
Messages
186
Likes
990
IAF want 114 rafales, and mrfa is a process to acquire them.
IAF already described to MOD, why su30 can't replace mmrca/mrfa needs.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MoD waiting for mwf to fly, after that GoI buys additional 36 rafale and mwf to fill mrfa requirement.
And can we trust the delivery schedule ? Will HAL be able to fill the numbers in time once they start delivery . And is it ok to keep the IAF in a disadvantage for a decade for indigenous fighter jets with respect to enemy . How many fighter jets per year can they produce ?
 

johnj

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2021
Messages
1,776
Likes
2,672
And can we trust the delivery schedule ? Will HAL be able to fill the numbers in time once they start delivery . And is it ok to keep the IAF in a disadvantage for a decade for indigenous fighter jets with respect to enemy .
Its upto GoI.
IAF need more AWACS, Air refuelers, jets, MTA, armed drone etc.
 

Aniruddha Mulay

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2019
Messages
1,817
Likes
9,698
Country flag
IAF shortlisted both eft & rafale, both UPA & NDA started process to acquiring 126 jets but suddenly GoI cancelled the deal and acquired 36 rafale, its political decision.
Show me where is the money.
The cost for 126 barebones Rafale way back in 2013 was $13-14 billion in itself.
Once you start adding rest of the things the price balloons to $20+ billion.
 

JBH22

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2010
Messages
6,478
Likes
17,797
Anyone knows if Aero India 23 will be opened to public?
If so how many days and where to get tickets
 

SKC

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2014
Messages
8,651
Likes
29,849
Country flag
Show me where is the money.
The cost for 126 barebones Rafale way back in 2013 was $13-14 billion in itself.
Once you start adding rest of the things the price balloons to $20+ billion.
Do we have to pay whole amount on the day we will sign the deal or we are going to pay the amount over the span of years when the rafale's will be delivered to us?
 

Aniruddha Mulay

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2019
Messages
1,817
Likes
9,698
Country flag
Do we have to pay whole amount on the day we will sign the deal or we are going to pay the amount over the span of years when the rafale's will be delivered to us?
Even if the money is spread out over multiple years, its still unfeasible.
MRFA practically blocks out a bulk of the IAF's CAPEX to be spent on these gold plated licensed assembly while leaving programs like Tejas Mk2, Su30 upgrade, AEW&C, Tankers, etc.
Just take a look at this tweet.
 

Love Charger

चक्रवर्ती
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2021
Messages
12,790
Likes
34,386
Country flag
Do we have to pay whole amount on the day we will sign the deal or we are going to pay the amount over the span of years when the rafale's will be delivered to us?
Humlog Russia se 13 saal me payment karte the sir ji, aap sahi keh rahe ho
 
  • Like
Reactions: SKC

Arjun Mk1A

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2022
Messages
2,768
Likes
15,766
Country flag
Sucking up to Rafale is waste of time honestly. We are just self sabotaging the existing programs under various stages. If production by HAL is time consuming process then utilize Private companies to help in maintaining good production rate.

Tata is going to setup a plant with help of Airbus. If HAL ready to help some companies will setup a factory to churn out fighters.
 

johnj

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2021
Messages
1,776
Likes
2,672
Show me where is the money.
The cost for 126 barebones Rafale way back in 2013 was $13-14 billion in itself.
Once you start adding rest of the things the price balloons to $20+ billion.
its political decision & economical.
Only mig 35 & f16 uae meets economical goal without tot. Mmrca started from 5~8bil [2007] to 15~18bil [2014] tot lol.
 

vishnugupt

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2013
Messages
2,583
Likes
11,048
Country flag
Until unless IAF commit for 400 MWF and look for additional Tejas and TEDBF, this misery is not going to end.

Unfortunately this misery is increasing as time pass and by 2035 this situation will become perplexing.

It is quite possible that most of DFIans will be not able to see a competent IAF for their lifetime.
 

Love Charger

चक्रवर्ती
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2021
Messages
12,790
Likes
34,386
Country flag
Until unless IAF commit for 400 MWF and look for additional Tejas and TEDBF, this misery is not going to end.

Unfortunately this misery is increasing as time pass and by 2035 this situation will become perplexing.

It is quite possible that most of DFIans will be not able to see a competent IAF for their lifetime.
It won't happen
 

Wisemarko

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2016
Messages
1,313
Likes
2,575
Country flag
F-16 deliveries near resumption, as Bahrain’s lead Block 70 jet takes shape
Craig Hoyle8 November 2022
-FLIGHT GLOBAL
Instead of dying out as Lockheed Martin’s fifth-generation F-35 Lightning II scoops up an increasing number of international orders, the manufacturer’s older F-16 is enjoying a late-life revival.

Having established a new final assembly line for the F-16 in Greenville, South Carolina, the US airframer is now within months of delivering its first customer example of the type since it in 2017 transferred the last to be completed at its Fort Worth site in Texas.

First F-16V for Bahrain

The Royal Bahraini Air Force (RBAF) will have the distinction of taking the milestone jet – also the first built to Lockheed’s latest Block 70/72, or V-model standard.

“The first F-16 Block 70 jet, for Bahrain, is now in the final assembly and checkout process. Flight tests will begin in early 2023,” Lockheed says. The company expects to complete the so-called DD250 delivery process to the US government – which is providing the aircraft to Manama via a Foreign Military Sales (FMS) programme deal – in the first quarter of the year, it adds.

Already an operator of 21 F-16C/Ds, Bahrain in June 2018 ordered 16 new-build examples to strengthen its air force fleet, under a deal worth $1.2 billion. The aircraft will use GE Aviation’s F110 engine, in common with its legacy assets.

TAKING SHAPE
Images released by Lockheed show the nation’s lead new aircraft – one of an eventual four two-seat examples – undergoing structural assembly in Greenville around the middle of this year, including undergoing landing gear installation and the wing to fuselage mate.

Five countries have so far signed firm contracts to acquire the Block 70 and Pratt & Whitney F100-powered Block 72 aircraft, with their combined commitments totalling 128 jets. Along with Bahrain, these buyers are repeat F-16 customers Morocco (24) and Taiwan (66), plus two future new operators: NATO members Bulgaria (8) and Slovakia (14).

“Block 70/72 production continues to make significant progress, with multiple aircraft in work for Bahrain, Slovakia and Bulgaria,” the company says. “The Block 70 production rate will increase significantly throughout 2023, with DD250 deliveries for additional customers continuing into the mid-to late-2020s.”

F-16 Slovakia part

Beyond its current backlog, Lockheed notes that “Jordan has signed a letter of offer and acceptance for eight new aircraft, and Congressional notification for a second fleet of [8] jets for Bulgaria was released earlier this year.”

Jordan – which already operates 59 A/B-model F-16s – in June 2022 signalled its intention to obtain the eight Block 70 examples.

IMPROVED PERFORMANCE
Lockheed highlights that a broad range of enhancements have been incorporated with its new-standard jet. These include the Northrop Grumman APG-83 active electronically scanned array radar, an “improved performance engine”, the installation of conformal fuel tanks, plus a datalink and advanced weapons.

The US Defense Security Cooperation Agency in May 2019 outlined a potentially $750 million armament package for the RBAF’s Block 70 jets, with air-to-air munitions to include Raytheon AIM-120 AMRAAM and AIM-9X Sidewinder II missiles. Air-to-surface stores mentioned included the Boeing AGM-84 Harpoon Block II anti-ship missile and GBU-39 Small Diameter Bomb; Raytheon AGM-154C Joint Standoff Weapon and AGM-88B High-Speed Anti-Radiation Missile; plus precision-guidance kits for use with a variety of bomb sizes.

F-16V Bahrain

The fighter’s modernised cockpit features updated avionics and a Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System II, along with safety enhancements including an automatic ground collision avoidance system. Airframe life also has been extended to 12,000 flight hours.

Lockheed declines to outline its planned delivery schedule beyond the first RBAF aircraft, referring questions about such FMS transactions to the US government. Likewise, it directs queries regarding Manama’s plan to also modernise its in-service F-16s to the customer. However, it notes: “Regarding upgrades for the current fleet, we know this remains a priority for Bahrain.”

The US Department of State in September 2017 gave its approval for a potentially $1 billion project to update the RBAF’s Block 40-standard aircraft – which are aged between 20 and 32 years – to the V-model standard.

Lockheed says its upgrade and sustainment programmes “help ensure the F-16 can operate for decades to come and support our customers’ national defence, regional security and interoperability with the United States”.

Meanwhile, asked about the task of establishing its new assembly facility in Greenville against the backdrop of a global pandemic, Lockheed confirms: “We have experienced some supplier challenges, many of which were Covid-19 related, as well as challenges with starting a new production line in a new location, and staffing challenges related to a competitive labour market.

GROWING GREENVILLE
“However, we continue to take proactive measures in partnership with the US government, our suppliers and our international partners to maximise production efficiency,” it says. This has included “hiring more than 300 employees at our Greenville site to support F-16 operations”.

Lockheed Martin Greenville

In addition, “New digital engineering technologies are also being implemented into the production line to maximise efficiency and decrease span time,” the company notes.

As Lockheed prepares to begin the new chapter in the F-16’s already almost 50-year operational story – the type was first flown in 1974, and entered service with the US Air Force four years later – it remains the most widely-operated fighter in use today. Cirium fleets data used in FlightGlobal’s soon-to-be-published 2023 World Air Forces directory shows that 2,184 examples are currently operated as combat aircraft, with another 626 employed as dedicated trainers.

Those 2,810 jets are in use with 25 nations, located in Africa, the Asia-Pacific region, Europe, Latin America, the Middle East and North America.

Once deliveries resume next year, Lockheed has an assured production path running out for several years, but sees clear potential to sell yet more examples to export customers.

“We see significant potential for additional new production F-16s based on international interest,” says Danya Trent, the company’s vice-president of F-16 programmes. In addition to the pending eight-aircraft deal with Jordan and follow-on batch for Bulgaria, she refers to the prospect of sealing further business with “customers in Europe, Asia and Africa”.

“Based on that level of demand, we see production opportunities in Greenville well into the late 2020s and beyond as additional customers select the F-16,” Trent says.

F-16V assembly

One major opportunity lies with the Indian air force (IAF), which has a long-standing need to acquire 110 new fighters. Indeed, the scale of the potential deal is strong enough to have encouraged Lockheed to from 2019 offer a unique F-16 variant renamed as the F-21.

UNIQUELY SUITED

“Our F-21 is uniquely configured to meet or exceed all of the IAF’s Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft requirements as we understand them to date,” Lockheed says. Noting that the nation’s government has yet to release a formal request for such a fleet, it notes: “If requirements deviate from our current understanding, then this may yield changes to our configuration and ultimate offering.”

Lockheed will, however, face strong competition for an Indian order, with regular sales adversaries Boeing, Dassault Aviation, the Eurofighter consortium, and Saab also all interested in pursuing such a lucrative, large-scale order.

Lockheed stresses that its F-21 proposal concerns “an indigenously-produced, Indian aircraft for India… which addresses the goals of self-reliance while providing India with an improved security cooperation relationship with the United States”.

F-21 for India

F-21

“Production of the F-21 in India will create thousands of new highly-skilled jobs within the Indian industrial base,” it says. The airframer points to its more than three-decade presence in the Indian market, including the success of its Tata Lockheed Martin Aerostructures and Tata Sikorsky Aerospace joint ventures in Hyderabad. These “have been instrumental in helping India achieve its goal of developing an aerospace and defence supplier ecosystem”, it notes, while Lockheed has established “significant teaming agreements, and close to 500 suppliers” in the country.

“We have had tremendous success working with the Indian industry; the products are very high quality and the delivery is on time and at a good cost,” Lockheed says.
 

binayak95

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2011
Messages
2,448
Likes
8,410
Country flag
F-16 deliveries near resumption, as Bahrain’s lead Block 70 jet takes shape
Craig Hoyle8 November 2022
-FLIGHT GLOBAL
Instead of dying out as Lockheed Martin’s fifth-generation F-35 Lightning II scoops up an increasing number of international orders, the manufacturer’s older F-16 is enjoying a late-life revival.

Having established a new final assembly line for the F-16 in Greenville, South Carolina, the US airframer is now within months of delivering its first customer example of the type since it in 2017 transferred the last to be completed at its Fort Worth site in Texas.

First F-16V for Bahrain

The Royal Bahraini Air Force (RBAF) will have the distinction of taking the milestone jet – also the first built to Lockheed’s latest Block 70/72, or V-model standard.

“The first F-16 Block 70 jet, for Bahrain, is now in the final assembly and checkout process. Flight tests will begin in early 2023,” Lockheed says. The company expects to complete the so-called DD250 delivery process to the US government – which is providing the aircraft to Manama via a Foreign Military Sales (FMS) programme deal – in the first quarter of the year, it adds.

Already an operator of 21 F-16C/Ds, Bahrain in June 2018 ordered 16 new-build examples to strengthen its air force fleet, under a deal worth $1.2 billion. The aircraft will use GE Aviation’s F110 engine, in common with its legacy assets.

TAKING SHAPE
Images released by Lockheed show the nation’s lead new aircraft – one of an eventual four two-seat examples – undergoing structural assembly in Greenville around the middle of this year, including undergoing landing gear installation and the wing to fuselage mate.

Five countries have so far signed firm contracts to acquire the Block 70 and Pratt & Whitney F100-powered Block 72 aircraft, with their combined commitments totalling 128 jets. Along with Bahrain, these buyers are repeat F-16 customers Morocco (24) and Taiwan (66), plus two future new operators: NATO members Bulgaria (8) and Slovakia (14).

“Block 70/72 production continues to make significant progress, with multiple aircraft in work for Bahrain, Slovakia and Bulgaria,” the company says. “The Block 70 production rate will increase significantly throughout 2023, with DD250 deliveries for additional customers continuing into the mid-to late-2020s.”

F-16 Slovakia part

Beyond its current backlog, Lockheed notes that “Jordan has signed a letter of offer and acceptance for eight new aircraft, and Congressional notification for a second fleet of [8] jets for Bulgaria was released earlier this year.”

Jordan – which already operates 59 A/B-model F-16s – in June 2022 signalled its intention to obtain the eight Block 70 examples.

IMPROVED PERFORMANCE
Lockheed highlights that a broad range of enhancements have been incorporated with its new-standard jet. These include the Northrop Grumman APG-83 active electronically scanned array radar, an “improved performance engine”, the installation of conformal fuel tanks, plus a datalink and advanced weapons.

The US Defense Security Cooperation Agency in May 2019 outlined a potentially $750 million armament package for the RBAF’s Block 70 jets, with air-to-air munitions to include Raytheon AIM-120 AMRAAM and AIM-9X Sidewinder II missiles. Air-to-surface stores mentioned included the Boeing AGM-84 Harpoon Block II anti-ship missile and GBU-39 Small Diameter Bomb; Raytheon AGM-154C Joint Standoff Weapon and AGM-88B High-Speed Anti-Radiation Missile; plus precision-guidance kits for use with a variety of bomb sizes.

F-16V Bahrain

The fighter’s modernised cockpit features updated avionics and a Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System II, along with safety enhancements including an automatic ground collision avoidance system. Airframe life also has been extended to 12,000 flight hours.

Lockheed declines to outline its planned delivery schedule beyond the first RBAF aircraft, referring questions about such FMS transactions to the US government. Likewise, it directs queries regarding Manama’s plan to also modernise its in-service F-16s to the customer. However, it notes: “Regarding upgrades for the current fleet, we know this remains a priority for Bahrain.”

The US Department of State in September 2017 gave its approval for a potentially $1 billion project to update the RBAF’s Block 40-standard aircraft – which are aged between 20 and 32 years – to the V-model standard.

Lockheed says its upgrade and sustainment programmes “help ensure the F-16 can operate for decades to come and support our customers’ national defence, regional security and interoperability with the United States”.

Meanwhile, asked about the task of establishing its new assembly facility in Greenville against the backdrop of a global pandemic, Lockheed confirms: “We have experienced some supplier challenges, many of which were Covid-19 related, as well as challenges with starting a new production line in a new location, and staffing challenges related to a competitive labour market.

GROWING GREENVILLE
“However, we continue to take proactive measures in partnership with the US government, our suppliers and our international partners to maximise production efficiency,” it says. This has included “hiring more than 300 employees at our Greenville site to support F-16 operations”.

Lockheed Martin Greenville

In addition, “New digital engineering technologies are also being implemented into the production line to maximise efficiency and decrease span time,” the company notes.

As Lockheed prepares to begin the new chapter in the F-16’s already almost 50-year operational story – the type was first flown in 1974, and entered service with the US Air Force four years later – it remains the most widely-operated fighter in use today. Cirium fleets data used in FlightGlobal’s soon-to-be-published 2023 World Air Forces directory shows that 2,184 examples are currently operated as combat aircraft, with another 626 employed as dedicated trainers.

Those 2,810 jets are in use with 25 nations, located in Africa, the Asia-Pacific region, Europe, Latin America, the Middle East and North America.

Once deliveries resume next year, Lockheed has an assured production path running out for several years, but sees clear potential to sell yet more examples to export customers.

“We see significant potential for additional new production F-16s based on international interest,” says Danya Trent, the company’s vice-president of F-16 programmes. In addition to the pending eight-aircraft deal with Jordan and follow-on batch for Bulgaria, she refers to the prospect of sealing further business with “customers in Europe, Asia and Africa”.

“Based on that level of demand, we see production opportunities in Greenville well into the late 2020s and beyond as additional customers select the F-16,” Trent says.

F-16V assembly

One major opportunity lies with the Indian air force (IAF), which has a long-standing need to acquire 110 new fighters. Indeed, the scale of the potential deal is strong enough to have encouraged Lockheed to from 2019 offer a unique F-16 variant renamed as the F-21.

UNIQUELY SUITED

“Our F-21 is uniquely configured to meet or exceed all of the IAF’s Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft requirements as we understand them to date,” Lockheed says. Noting that the nation’s government has yet to release a formal request for such a fleet, it notes: “If requirements deviate from our current understanding, then this may yield changes to our configuration and ultimate offering.”

Lockheed will, however, face strong competition for an Indian order, with regular sales adversaries Boeing, Dassault Aviation, the Eurofighter consortium, and Saab also all interested in pursuing such a lucrative, large-scale order.

Lockheed stresses that its F-21 proposal concerns “an indigenously-produced, Indian aircraft for India… which addresses the goals of self-reliance while providing India with an improved security cooperation relationship with the United States”.

F-21 for India

F-21

“Production of the F-21 in India will create thousands of new highly-skilled jobs within the Indian industrial base,” it says. The airframer points to its more than three-decade presence in the Indian market, including the success of its Tata Lockheed Martin Aerostructures and Tata Sikorsky Aerospace joint ventures in Hyderabad. These “have been instrumental in helping India achieve its goal of developing an aerospace and defence supplier ecosystem”, it notes, while Lockheed has established “significant teaming agreements, and close to 500 suppliers” in the country.

“We have had tremendous success working with the Indian industry; the products are very high quality and the delivery is on time and at a good cost,” Lockheed says.
F21 will never sell in India, lockheed is just wasting time.
 

Wisemarko

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2016
Messages
1,313
Likes
2,575
Country flag
F21 will never sell in India, lockheed is just wasting time.
Lockheed is a vendor and has to say what needs to be said. Moreover, LM is not dying for orders with stellar success of F-35 and resurgent F-16. No one thinks that F-21 is going to India. It would be a nightmare to deal with clearances and never ending evaluations. It is much easier to sell cutting edge offensive weapons to more strategically aligned nations.
 

binayak95

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2011
Messages
2,448
Likes
8,410
Country flag
Lockheed is a vendor and has to say what needs to be said. It is not dying for orders with stellar success of F-35 and resurgent F-16. No one thinks that F-21 is going to India. It is much easier to sell cutting edge offensive weapons to more strategically aligned nations anyway.
The F35 has a much realistic chance at a market in India than either the F16 or the F15, but that all depends on several factors in the mix.

That said, where US MIC is excelling in India is in long range ISR - the P8i, the MQ9s, and in logistics
 

Wisemarko

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2016
Messages
1,313
Likes
2,575
Country flag
The F35 has a much realistic chance at a market in India than either the F16 or the F15, but that all depends on several factors in the mix.

That said, where US MIC is excelling in India is in long range ISR - the P8i, the MQ9s, and in logistics
Yes, agree. F-35 clearance requires serious commitment from both sides which I see lacking.
 

Blademaster

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2009
Messages
9,211
Likes
26,950
Yes, agree. F-35 clearance requires serious commitment from both sides which I see lacking.
Not gonna happen for one reason - IAF cannot afford the costly maintenance required of this plane in order to keep it flying more than 150 hours a year. Not to mention never being sure that US won't brick the plane for nonconformal behavior by India towards US policies. Sure right now the F-35 plane is the best plane on offer but it is so loaded with scorpions and snakes that no sane Indian would want to go near it with a ten foot pole. AMCA is the way to go.
 

Corvus Splendens

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2021
Messages
3,906
Likes
25,527
Country flag
Yes, agree. F-35 clearance requires serious commitment from both sides which I see lacking.
The F-35 was neither on offer nor on the minds of the IAF. AF is looking at AMCA for their stealth requirements, and GoI is unlikely to allow the acquisition of any fighter that derails the crown jewel SPV project, have fun getting past the CAG.
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top