Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

Okabe Rintarou

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
1,536
Likes
7,259
Country flag
Integrating on Mi-26 was sarcastic. But it still can be done.
And no. Are you joking?
NLOS is nothing like SANT, not even remotely close to hellfire. Please read on the targeting more for both. They’re pure LOS.
Both those missiles above need a direct line of sight with laser designation with I think Km’s range(not sure). Introduce crappy weather, and you can go back home.

NLOS is an I/R video controlled loop that can be fired like I said, literally sitting behind a mountain, and guiding it 30kms away. It has a manual and automatic mode. Perfect for mountain warfare. Which is why US army isrushing to validate this system for their apaches. Israelis have been using it for ages.

Like I said, not sure why the experienced folks in this forum are not picking up on this topic. LCH would work wonders if it integrates this system. It is extremely costly as well with almost $ 200k a missile.
But it’s worked wonders for Koreans and Israelis and even the British.

This article gives you an idea of potential tactics for this system.


LCH can be integrated to operate both the SANT and NLOS. Which is what the Apache-is doing ( both NLOS and hellfire)
Dude, Hellfire can be fired from behind a Mountain as well. It has three different LOAL modes, two of those allow the entire helicopter to hide behind the terrain feature and fire over the feature. Yes it needs a ground team or drone on the other side for lasing the target but so does NLOS. I mean, sure, NLOS can be controlled much like a your average TV guided missile, but what told you in real-time that there was a target 30 km at that location? Likely a drone or Infantry, right? So either way, you needed somebody at the target end for ID'ing the target, if not lasing it.
.
Anyways, we should build a desi NLOS ATGM. Purchase Spike NLOS as a stopgap till then, just like we purchased Spike MR till DRDO MPATGM comes online. Problem is, Army and Airforce don't seem interested in this capability for the next decade at least. Or else they would have mentioned it in the TPCR document.
 

Sridhar_TN

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2019
Messages
811
Likes
2,113
Country flag
Dude, Hellfire can be fired from behind a Mountain as well. It has three different LOAL modes, two of those allow the entire helicopter to hide behind the terrain feature and fire over the feature. Yes it needs a ground team or drone on the other side for lasing the target but so does NLOS. I mean, sure, NLOS can be controlled much like a your average TV guided missile, but what told you in real-time that there was a target 30 km at that location? Likely a drone or Infantry, right? So either way, you needed somebody at the target end for ID'ing the target, if not lasing it.
.
Anyways, we should build a desi NLOS ATGM. Purchase Spike NLOS as a stopgap till then, just like we purchased Spike MR till DRDO MPATGM comes online. Problem is, Army and Airforce don't seem interested in this capability for the next decade at least. Or else they would have mentioned it in the TPCR document.
I think you’re mixing up pretty much everything that goes into an engagement run. I would suggest maybe researching more into the system maybe would give you a better understanding than me explaining it as I might be missing a few key points. I’ding a target is different than continually lasing it. If that was not case, you don’t need any other system other than a dedicated laser guided system.

There are two modes to NLOS if I’m not mistaken. One is GPS guidance. And the other is video loop. If the video loop is broken in the last few seconds, the onboard target acquisition sensor(image based) takes over. These are the details that I know. If you’re trying to say hellfire also works like this, then my mind’s blown.Like I’ve said, hellfire missile needs a direct line of sight lasing the target either from the heli or some guy pointing a laser at a target that might as well take him out.
You’re getting into the nuances of target acquisition now. Would you send out an lch or apache to take out targets only if ground based units are there to ID the target? Or would you send an Apache or lch to perform recce on its own and then lay waste? These are two different approaches. The first one is for CAS. The second one is for hunting. What the apaches do now in Ladakh is the latter. The go into the night and observe the Chinese side for any infiltration attempts. Couples together with drones, you have a far superior ID’ing capability.
Neither of these systems can take out a target more than 15 kms away at the moment. Taking out a target 30kms away, is ridiculous because you pretty much have no counter for such systems yet, and a swarm of lch’s would create so much nuisance. Words from a brigadier general of usarmy :

The standoff capability allows the fleet to target threats from a relatively advantageous position, as well as evade and penetrate enemy lines of defense, which leaves open a window for further maneuvering into denied territory.
Future Army aircraft with long-range precision munitions “presents multiple dilemmas,” Rugen said. “We are not tied to an airfield, we are not tied to a ship port.”

they trialled an attack on a pantsir system sitting well out of its defensive range.


Yeah, now if you’re talking about developing a SANT version with such range and capabilities, then go for it. Would take a decade(practically speaking). Making everything in house is not feasible or practical. First, SANT can be developed and utilized for the existing range and capabilities that it claims before trying to upgrade and use for these features.
And yes, NLOS can be used as a stop Gap.
You’re right. Army and AF don’t seem that interested now in such systems. Which is whatis intriguing. Maybe they have a different approach to war fighting.
 
Last edited:

Okabe Rintarou

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
1,536
Likes
7,259
Country flag
I think you’re mixing up pretty much everything that goes into an engagement run. I would suggest maybe researching more into the system maybe would give you a better understanding than me explaining it. I’ding a target is different than continually lasing it. If that was not case, you don’t need any other system other than a dedicated laser guided system.

There are two modes to NLOS if I’m not mistaken. One is GPS guidance. And the other is video loop. If the video loop is broken in the last few seconds, the onboard target acquisition sensor(image based) takes over. These are the details that I know. If you’re trying to say hellfire also works like this, then my mind’s blown.Like I’ve said, hellfire missile needs a direct line of sight lasing the target either from the heli or some guy pointing a laser at a target that might as well take him out.
You’re getting into the nuances of target acquisition now. Would you send out an lch or apache to take out targets only if ground based units are there to ID the target? Or would you send an Apache or lch to perform recce on its own and then lay waste? These are two different approaches. The first one is for CAS. The second one is for hunting. What the apaches do now in Ladakh is the latter. The go into the night and observe the Chinese side for any infiltration attempts. Couples together with drones, you have a far superior ID’ing capability.
Neither of these systems can take out a target more than 15 kms away at the moment. Taking out a target 30kms away, is ridiculous because you pretty much have no counter for such systems yet, and a swarm of lch’s would create so much nuisance. Words from a brigadier general of :

The standoff capability allows the fleet to target threats from a relatively advantageous position, as well as evade and penetrate enemy lines of defense, which leaves open a window for further maneuvering into denied territory.
Future Army aircraft with long-range precision munitions “presents multiple dilemmas,” Rugen said. “We are not tied to an airfield, we are not tied to a ship port.”

they trialled an attack on a pantsir system sitting well out of its defensive range.


Yeah, now if you’re talking about developing a SANT version with such range and capabilities, then go for it. Would take a decade(practically speaking). Making everything in house is not feasible or practical. First, SANT can be developed and utilized for the existing range and capabilities that it claims before trying to upgrade and use for these features.
1.) Kindly stop putting words in my mouth. I never said IDing a target is the same as lasing. I think I made the difference pretty clear. I said that in any case, you need something for IDing the targets: drones or men. Now as per your CAS mode its usually men and for hunting, its usually a drone. And yes, lasing can give away your position.
2.) Hellfire has a LOAL-HI mode where it clears a 1000 feet terrain feature infront of the aircraft by flying over it and then catches the Lasing being done by men or drones on the other side of the terrain feature. It also has a LOAL-LO feature, though not sure how exactly it works, but it allows for similar terrain masking.
3.) Before you take out the target 30 km away, you need to know where it is. Only then do you launch the NLOS. So your drone needs to have LOS of target briefly either way. TV-loop being broken, yes an IIR would home-in on the target regardless. So yeah, Spike NLOS is another tool in the toolbox, its not a silver bullet.
4.) With the kind of procurement we have, it would anyways take a decade to induct LCH in sufficient numbers and even if Spike NLOS is ordered, it would take at least 3 years for it to be delivered. So yeah, trying to develop a home-grown Spike NLOS alternative as Spike NLOS itself is purchased as stop-gap sounds reasonable to me. We have a good IIR seeker, good rocket motor tech, not sure how good our data links are but we have them, and we have MMW seekers as well. Building blocks are there. After MPATGM, SANT and Dhruvastra are done, a Nag-NLOS should be the next logical step. That and multi-mode seekers (like the American Hellfire replacement) are what DRDO would obviously focus on next.
 

Sridhar_TN

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2019
Messages
811
Likes
2,113
Country flag
1.) Kindly stop putting words in my mouth. I never said IDing a target is the same as lasing. I think I made the difference pretty clear. I said that in any case, you need something for IDing the targets: drones or men. Now as per your CAS mode its usually men and for hunting, its usually a drone. And yes, lasing can give away your position.
2.) Hellfire has a LOAL-HI mode where it clears a 1000 feet terrain feature infront of the aircraft by flying over it and then catches the Lasing being done by men or drones on the other side of the terrain feature. It also has a LOAL-LO feature, though not sure how exactly it works, but it allows for similar terrain masking.
3.) Before you take out the target 30 km away, you need to know where it is. Only then do you launch the NLOS. So your drone needs to have LOS of target briefly either way. TV-loop being broken, yes an IIR would home-in on the target regardless. So yeah, Spike NLOS is another tool in the toolbox, its not a silver bullet.
4.) With the kind of procurement we have, it would anyways take a decade to induct LCH in sufficient numbers and even if Spike NLOS is ordered, it would take at least 3 years for it to be delivered. So yeah, trying to develop a home-grown Spike NLOS alternative as Spike NLOS itself is purchased as stop-gap sounds reasonable to me. We have a good IIR seeker, good rocket motor tech, not sure how good our data links are but we have them, and we have MMW seekers as well. Building blocks are there. After MPATGM, SANT and Dhruvastra are done, a Nag-NLOS should be the next logical step. That and multi-mode seekers (like the American Hellfire replacement) are what DRDO would obviously focus on next.
1) Still hard to understand what this has anything to do with LOS or NLOS. You’re getting caught up in the first stage of an engagement run. You get target info from somewhere, why do you care at this point? Could be a spook for all you know providing GPS data or a small drone providing the same data.

2) What does that have to do with stand-off range? Doing that requires someone constantly lasing something, so that a missile can hit it within 8 kms.

3) now You’re going back to the first stage. You’re asking again how will you first ID the target. Dude, there are various ways of IDing a target. You can Id a target 100s of kms away fyi.
I think you’re failing to grasp the fundamental differences in both these systems for their attacking capabilities. If you think hellfire does the same job, then I’ll stop arguing cause you’re not seeing the advantage it provides for ground attack roles. Referring back to the hellfire as having the same capability is just balderdash at this point.
This is a system designed for precision stand-off attack from a helicopter that does not require any LOS. Short of launching a cruise missile or sending a jet with a precision guidance kit attached, no other systems can provide such capability 32 kms away sitting a 100 feet above ground level.

Eg: Chinese posts located at so and so GPS coordinates(ID’d by a drone, ground troop not continually lasing at target like an idiot, or a satellite image). LCH/Apache arrives and is hidden well behind mountain cover, absolutely protected behind terrain. Arrives on scene fast enough, lobs a few NLOS’s and scoots to new location. No air DEFENCE ties it down, no aircraft is stupid enough to fly that low in mountains to engage, and the Chopper is ready to engage new positions or hover and do more Recce. Pretty neat.

4) Not sure what you’re saying. IA had asked for spike integration, but was declined due to home grown. Understandable and I think SANT can be integrated(hopefully).
NLOS is a different capability that neither SANT nor hellfire provides, and there’s bo overlap of capabilities. NLOS can be integrated in addition to SANT.

Peace
 
Last edited:

Okabe Rintarou

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
1,536
Likes
7,259
Country flag
1) Still hard to understand what this has anything to do with LOS or NLOS. You’re getting caught up in the first stage of an engagement run. You get target info from somewhere, why do you care at this point? Could be a spook for all you know providing GPS data or a small drone providing the same data.

2) What does that have to do with stand-off range? Doing that requires someone constantly lasing something, so that a missile can hit it within 8 kms.

3) now You’re going back to the first stage. You’re asking again how will you first ID the target. Dude, there are various ways of IDing a target. You can Id a target 100s of kms away fyi.
I think you’re failing to grasp the fundamental differences in both these systems for their attacking capabilities. If you think hellfire does the same job, then I’ll stop arguing cause you’re not seeing the advantage it provides for ground attack roles. Referring back to the hellfire as having the same capability is just balderdash at this point.
This is a system designed for precision stand-off attack from a helicopter that does not require any LOS. Short of launching a cruise missile or sending a jet with a precision guidance kit attached, no other systems can provide such capability 32 kms away sitting a 100 feet above ground level.

Eg: Chinese posts located at so and so GPS coordinates(ID’d by a drone, ground troop not continually lasing at target like an idiot, or a satellite image). LCH/Apache arrives and is hidden well behind mountain cover, absolutely protected behind terrain. Arrives on scene fast enough, lobs a few NLOS’s and scoots to new location. No air DEFENCE ties it down, no aircraft is stupid enough to fly that low in mountains to engage, and the Chopper is ready to engage new positions or hover and do more Recce. Pretty neat.

4) Not sure what you’re saying. IA had asked for spike integration, but was declined due to home grown. Understandable and I think SANT can be integrated(hopefully).
NLOS is a different capability that neither SANT nor hellfire provides, and there’s bo overlap of capabilities. NLOS can be integrated in addition to SANT.

Peace
I think you’re failing to grasp the fundamental differences in both these sy
level.



Eg: Chinese posts located at so and so GPS coordinates(ID’d by a drone
stems for their attacking capabilities. If you think hellfire does the same job, then I’ll stop arguing cause you’re not seeing the advantage it provides for ground attack roles. Referring back to the hellfire as having the same capability is just balderdash at this point.
NLOS is a different capability that neither SANT nor hellfire provides, and there’s bo overlap of capabilities.
Dude you are misconstruing a lot of what I am saying. I never said Hellfire or SANT can perform the role of Spike NLOS. Show me where I said that. This is from my first comment:-
As for using ATGMs while hiding behind a terrain feature its not unique to Spike NLOS, is it? Hellfire and SANT can do it too.
I was saying that Hellfire and SANT also give the ability to the Attack heptr to hide out of sight behind a terrain feature (such as a mountain) and launch the weapon. I focused on that because you were talking as if this is some unique capability of NLOS.

I've never said that NLOS is not needed. I am saying that it is a niche capability. Reason I am emphasising ID'ing the target is because its a very expensive missile and the launch platform is also expensive. You don't use it where you can get cheaper stuff like Artillery to do the job for you. You use these for high value targets like command bunkers and enemy radars. You don't use it for CAS because there, you can simply use Hellfire or SANT or Dhruvastra. Tank busting can also be done by these, NLOS not needed. You need NLOS for interdiction missions. Consider an Air Force LCH equipped with NLOS. Maybe the job is to hit long-range SAM radar sites after Air Force SEAD ops have blown holes in enemy AD and a route to long-range SAM radars is open for exploitation. And why you are not using jets for that is because jets can't use nap of earth and terrain masking as effectively as attack heptrs can. So this is one niche where Spike NLOS equipped attack heptrs would be game changers and our current SANT or Dhruvastra equipped LCH wouldn't cut it.

Another niche role for Army LCH-equipped Spike NLOS (although could be done by drones like Harop too) is hitting an enemy command bunker on a reverse slope. Because its on a reverse slope the bunker might be unreachable by howitzers due to the defilade provided by the ridgeline. It might be too far away for mortars. It would also be too low value a target for a fighter jet. Here, LCH-NLOS combo again saves the day, without the Army commander having to ask for Air Force support. So I am well aware that Spike NLOS does have a niche role, which is why I said that Armed Forces should consider purchasing some Spike NLOS as stop-gap and simultaneously ask DRDO to get a domestic version up and running.
level.

Why I am talking about IDing the target is because that is an integral part of NLOS weapons employment considerations. And not just IDing, you need Battle Damage Assessment (BDA) post the strike as well, or else you won't know if target is out and hence won't know for sure if its safe to proceed with next step of the plan. I don't understand how both can be done from 100s of km away. I mean sure you can use ELINT or maybe even Cyber attacks to pin point their location, but that is only for emitting targets. And what about BDA? You started a discussion about NLOS, I merely want to add to it a discussion about the drones needed for proper exploitation of NLOS missile capability. We need drones in there for ID'ing and BDA, preferably controlled by WSO of Attack Helicopter itself. Which is why I said in my first comment that we need CATS for LCH:-
Heck, we need a CATS drone family for Attack Helicopters. That along with an indigenous NLOS-ATGM will be very useful in the North.
So I am not against NLOS. Please stop thinking that. I've been talking about DRDO building a desi-NLOS since my first comment. So yes I agree 100% when you say this:-
NLOS can be integrated in addition to SANT.
We should further talk about what kind of drones are needed as well.
 
Last edited:

Okabe Rintarou

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
1,536
Likes
7,259
Country flag
247 knots? Damn that is fast. If HAL ever gets around to building an Apache class attack helicopter, it should work on this architecture:-



Imagine an Indian HCH based on this. But as usual, no such requirement has come up from neither the Army nor the Air Force. Do they not keep up with stuff around the world or is it because its not "proven" yet?
 

Sridhar_TN

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2019
Messages
811
Likes
2,113
Country flag
Dude you are misconstruing a lot of what I am saying. I never said Hellfire or SANT can perform the role of Spike NLOS. Show me where I said that. This is from my first comment:-

I was saying that Hellfire and SANT also give the ability to the Attack heptr to hide out of sight behind a terrain feature (such as a mountain) and launch the weapon. I focused on that because you were talking as if this is some unique capability of NLOS.

I've never said that NLOS is not needed. I am saying that it is a niche capability. Reason I am emphasising ID'ing the target is because its a very expensive missile and the launch platform is also expensive. You don't use it where you can get cheaper stuff like Artillery to do the job for you. You use these for high value targets like command bunkers and enemy radars. You don't use it for CAS because there, you can simply use Hellfire or SANT or Dhruvastra. Tank busting can also be done by these, NLOS not needed. You need NLOS for interdiction missions. Consider an Air Force LCH equipped with NLOS. Maybe the job is to hit long-range SAM radar sites after Air Force SEAD ops have blown holes in enemy AD and a route to long-range SAM radars is open for exploitation. And why you are not using jets for that is because jets can't use nap of earth and terrain masking as effectively as attack heptrs can. So this is one niche where Spike NLOS equipped attack heptrs would be game changers and our current SANT or Dhruvastra equipped LCH wouldn't cut it.

Another niche role for Army LCH-equipped Spike NLOS (although could be done by drones like Harop too) is hitting an enemy command bunker on a reverse slope. Because its on a reverse slope the bunker might be unreachable by howitzers due to the defilade provided by the ridgeline. It might be too far away for mortars. It would also be too low value a target for a fighter jet. Here, LCH-NLOS combo again saves the day, without the Army commander having to ask for Air Force support. So I am well aware that Spike NLOS does have a niche role, which is why I said that Armed Forces should consider purchasing some Spike NLOS as stop-gap and simultaneously ask DRDO to get a domestic version up and running.
level.

Why I am talking about IDing the target is because that is an integral part of NLOS weapons employment considerations. And not just IDing, you need Battle Damage Assessment (BDA) post the strike as well, or else you won't know if target is out and hence won't know for sure if its safe to proceed with next step of the plan. I don't understand how both can be done from 100s of km away. I mean sure you can use ELINT or maybe even Cyber attacks to pin point their location, but that is only for emitting targets. And what about BDA? You started a discussion about NLOS, I merely want to add to it a discussion about the drones needed for proper exploitation of NLOS missile capability. We need drones in there for ID'ing and BDA, preferably controlled by WSO of Attack Helicopter itself. Which is why I said in my first comment that we need CATS for LCH:-

So I am not against NLOS. Please stop thinking that. I've been talking about DRDO building a desi-NLOS since my first comment. So yes I agree 100% when you say this:-


We should further talk about what kind of drones are needed as well.
The novelty of this system is that its mounted on a chopper. It’s not tied to an airfield, or an operating post. It can be flow in whenever, wherever(even from a dirt road), to any position, and launch something at a whopping 30kms stand-off range. There is not counter for such a platform yet unless you have long range radars, but it goes moot when the attacking chopper is hidden in terrain. The major advantage over existing ATGM’s is its long range(30kms is overkill) and no requirement for a secondary unit to guide it to the target on ground. Can be performed just by the chopper. The only way to defeat this would be if the Chinese employ their own attack choppers constantly patrolling the area with air to air. Otherwise, these choppers can fly into any sector, stay well outside Chinese posts range in the mountains or even plain terrain and launch. Removes the dependence on troop Engagement and Excalibur shells by 80%.

ID’ing a target is not difficult for the Indian army . Once you know general target area either via drone or long range surveillance or just any aerial platform, you’re guiding the missile with a video feed. So you’re not breaking cover. If you’re at war, you pretty much know each and every enemy post, as there’s continuous surveillance. Knowing that pak troops occupied tiger hill was not difficult. Engaging them was the issue. Anytime the hind would go near the posts, pak army would fire stingers, and shot down Indian hinds. 30 kms is an overkill range. Even 20kms is an overkill range. You can comfortably sit behind Indian troop posts and guide all the ATGM’s you want. Issue with using apaches for engaging Chinese posts would be the manpads that the Chinese would use if the chopper came within visual range. This would be totally defeated with NLOS specifically for the Himalayan terrain. When you don’t have air supremacy in the region, this acts as a good CAS unit at very good stand-off range.

The Americans are not developing their hellfire into such a system because it’s cheaper and easier for them to integrate the spikes. It’s been used by the Israelis since 2006 and is battle proven. Only issue is it’s friggin expensive. The Brit’s integrated NLOS into their apaches way before the Americans. Battle reports showed that British apaches used to take out enemy posts in Iraq for CAS roles by not even appearing on the scene. The complaints by marine corps operators was that the Brit’s would not provide Apache gunfire and only preferred shooting missiles from far out. Totally understandable because why risk losing a 100 million dollar platform to an rpg round.

The Koreans bought this system for ground operations. They’ve been using a humvees launched system for coastal operations. They’re able to target attack boats and ships that are close to coast. Makes sense, because there’s a threat of North Korea using landing platforms for attacking coastal regions.

What would be cheaper for India to do is this. Let there be a version of LCH’s by removing the nexter cannon, and have 4 NLOS launchers and 4 short range ATGM’s(SANT or hellfire or whatever). This is just a version upgrade and not talking about removing the nexter setup completely for all platforms. Point is, you need to have the LCH operate at high altitudes comfortably. Instead of the nexter system, maybe equip an even more powerful electro-Optical system. Not sure what the current range capabilities are. But what you’re getting is a high altitude platform to perform powerful reconnaissance, and if need be engage such targets at extreme stand-off ranges. Sounds very good on paper, but just something that could be useful in the hilly terrains.

Your point about reverse slopes is spot on. Not a whole lot sure if NLOS is good at that, but depending on altitude, can be done, maybe?
 
Last edited:

Sridhar_TN

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2019
Messages
811
Likes
2,113
Country flag
Dude you are misconstruing a lot of what I am saying. I never said Hellfire or SANT can perform the role of Spike NLOS. Show me where I said that. This is from my first comment:-

I was saying that Hellfire and SANT also give the ability to the Attack heptr to hide out of sight behind a terrain feature (such as a mountain) and launch the weapon. I focused on that because you were talking as if this is some unique capability of NLOS.

I've never said that NLOS is not needed. I am saying that it is a niche capability. Reason I am emphasising ID'ing the target is because its a very expensive missile and the launch platform is also expensive. You don't use it where you can get cheaper stuff like Artillery to do the job for you. You use these for high value targets like command bunkers and enemy radars. You don't use it for CAS because there, you can simply use Hellfire or SANT or Dhruvastra. Tank busting can also be done by these, NLOS not needed. You need NLOS for interdiction missions. Consider an Air Force LCH equipped with NLOS. Maybe the job is to hit long-range SAM radar sites after Air Force SEAD ops have blown holes in enemy AD and a route to long-range SAM radars is open for exploitation. And why you are not using jets for that is because jets can't use nap of earth and terrain masking as effectively as attack heptrs can. So this is one niche where Spike NLOS equipped attack heptrs would be game changers and our current SANT or Dhruvastra equipped LCH wouldn't cut it.

Another niche role for Army LCH-equipped Spike NLOS (although could be done by drones like Harop too) is hitting an enemy command bunker on a reverse slope. Because its on a reverse slope the bunker might be unreachable by howitzers due to the defilade provided by the ridgeline. It might be too far away for mortars. It would also be too low value a target for a fighter jet. Here, LCH-NLOS combo again saves the day, without the Army commander having to ask for Air Force support. So I am well aware that Spike NLOS does have a niche role, which is why I said that Armed Forces should consider purchasing some Spike NLOS as stop-gap and simultaneously ask DRDO to get a domestic version up and running.
level.

Why I am talking about IDing the target is because that is an integral part of NLOS weapons employment considerations. And not just IDing, you need Battle Damage Assessment (BDA) post the strike as well, or else you won't know if target is out and hence won't know for sure if its safe to proceed with next step of the plan. I don't understand how both can be done from 100s of km away. I mean sure you can use ELINT or maybe even Cyber attacks to pin point their location, but that is only for emitting targets. And what about BDA? You started a discussion about NLOS, I merely want to add to it a discussion about the drones needed for proper exploitation of NLOS missile capability. We need drones in there for ID'ing and BDA, preferably controlled by WSO of Attack Helicopter itself. Which is why I said in my first comment that we need CATS for LCH:-

So I am not against NLOS. Please stop thinking that. I've been talking about DRDO building a desi-NLOS since my first comment. So yes I agree 100% when you say this:-


We should further talk about what kind of drones are needed as well.
I love the topic of drones. Yes. Drones re needed. Lots.

if you’re talking about the navy side of things, I say, go for 40 sea guardians with MAD. You need that many to monitor the oceans 24/7. Meaning full spectrum wide area coverage. Something to think about. Or if it’s homegrown, sure that works too. But something needs to be done fast.

For the borders, first and foremost is surveillance . The entire stretch of LAC and LOC should be monitored via high altitudedrones . 24/7. Usual loiter time for a predator is close to 18 hours right? Does it sound a bit too insane or greedy? Maybe. But it’s the only way for guaranteed surveillance. Preparators/avengers or home grown? That’s a political call. But something needs to be done fast.

After that comes the topic of armed drones for stand-off attacks. Now, if NLOS is integrated with apaches, then query this. Why not predators? That’s right. The next step, the us army would do(maybe usaf too) is to equip NLOS with drones. That gives even more incredible stand-off range.


all that aside, when modi met with Vivek Lall(General Atomics CEO), Lall came out of the meeting and is hoping to establish a drone hub in India. So preference for drone operations is growing more and more among armed forces. How it pans out, foreign collab, or fully home grown is yet to be seen.
 
Last edited:

Sridhar_TN

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2019
Messages
811
Likes
2,113
Country flag
I love the topic of drones. Yes. Drones re needed. Lots.

if you’re talking about the navy side of things, I say, go for 40 sea guardians with MAD. You need that many to monitor the oceans 24/7. Meaning full spectrum wide area coverage. Something to think about. Or if it’s homegrown, sure that works too. But something needs to be done fast.

For the borders, first and foremost is surveillance . The entire stretch of LAC and LOC should be monitored via high altitudedrones . 24/7. Usual loiter time for a predator is close to 18 hours right? Does it sound a bit too insane or greedy? Maybe. But it’s the only way for guaranteed surveillance. Preparators/avengers or home grown? That’s a political call. But something needs to be done fast.

After that comes the topic of armed drones for stand-off attacks. Now, if NLOS is integrated with apaches, then query this. Why not predators? That’s right. The next step, the us army would do(maybe usaf too) is to equip NLOS with drones. That gives even more incredible stand-off range.


all that aside, when modi met with Vivek Lall(General Atomics CEO), Lall came out of the meeting and is hoping to establish a drone hub in India. So preference for drone operations is growing more and more among armed forces. How it pans out, foreign collab, or fully home grown is yet to be seen.
Not sure if the sea guardian India is purchasing comes with the ASW package. It’s packed with an aesa SAR, sonobuoy system for submarine detection, has an endurance of 8 hours for a 1400 mile radius patrol. That endurance doubles as the radius gets cut in half.
 

FalconZero

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2020
Messages
3,211
Likes
16,136
Country flag
Weeew, ani just posted a video of IAF Heron Mk1 drone,

chrome_qRz8zw7jxX.jpg

1634495240379.png
[
1634495246570.png

1634495253483.png
/SPOILER]
 

ezsasa

Designated Cynic
Mod
Joined
Jul 12, 2014
Messages
22,108
Likes
88,821
Country flag
Safe to say, no other technology has been absorbed/adopted by Indian state top to bottom as fast as it was done for drones.

now if these drone companies want to survive till end of this decade, they need build commercial fun/professional drone like DJI for consumer market.
=============
Air Chief Marshal VR Chaudhari, Chief of Air Staff @IAF_MCC presented the IAF Mehar Baba Swarm Drone Competition trophy for Best Drone Architecture to Dhaksha Unmanned Systems Pvt Ltd at Air Force Station Yelahanka, Bengaluru on 24 Oct 2021.

1E640881-F9B0-4255-AEC1-169DC3130559.jpeg


 

Maharaj skandgupta

चक्रवर्ती
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2021
Messages
1,788
Likes
4,087
Country flag
Safe to say, no other technology has been absorbed/adopted by Indian state top to bottom as fast as it was done for drones.

now if these drone companies want to survive till end of this decade, they need build commercial fun/professional drone like DJI for consumer market.
=============
Air Chief Marshal VR Chaudhari, Chief of Air Staff @IAF_MCC presented the IAF Mehar Baba Swarm Drone Competition trophy for Best Drone Architecture to Dhaksha Unmanned Systems Pvt Ltd at Air Force Station Yelahanka, Bengaluru on 24 Oct 2021.

View attachment 116014

So these drones go on the target and then go boom ?
 

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top