Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

Dark Sorrow

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Can we build an ISTAR aircraft right now with the same capabilities as a western one right fkking now if we wanted to???
Yes, we can build one that satisfies are armed forces requirement. If you want to nurture local industry should be going with local platforms.
Do we have a predator equivalent and build it in large numbers if we wanted to?
We have TAPAS-BH-201. It can carry all jobs that predator can do.
We are nurturing our Local MIC, whatever you want to say
Doesn't mean we have capability of our own right now,
It's in American interest to not let our MIC develop as to keep the billions flowing
Buying off-the shelf items is not nurturing our local industry in any way. Lets not kid ourselves.
There are some things we Excel in, like The NASAMs purchase?????
But still western stuff is vastly superior especially when the deal is for critical tech required to maintain an edge over our adversaries at present
In what way is NASAM superior to Akash, VL-SRSAM or QRSAM? Elaborate with respect to armed forces specification.
Systems developed by DRDO as as per the specification of armed forces. If our system satisfy the requirement laid down in specification where comes the need of comparasion between Indian or western system. Blindly thinking western systems are superior will be foolhardy. With locally developed systems we will have complete IP ownership and know how for modification and update.
Tomorrow if we need to update EW threat library in ISTAR platform what will be easy; To update local platform or American platform
Just take PRC example. They have almost matched up with western system because they pushed for local development.
 

johnj

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Predator -> TAPAS-BH-201 or should we say our drone program is failure. Ghatak UCAV is also in pipeline.
NASAMS 2 -> QRSAM, VL-SRSAM and Akash SAM (IAF Not Keen On NASAMS-II)
ISTAR -> DRDO has necessary technologies and is ready to develop and deliver such aircraft

Off the above only P8I and C-130J can be justified.

If you never accept indigenous developed product you can never achieve self-sufficiency.
Make in India is of no use if you can't accept locally designed product. Design and manufacturing go hand in hand. Just take example of HAL they even import screws needed for aircraft.
History is filled with numerous examples where countries and its armed force have accepted products that were not proven or best or most economical just to support local industry.

All I can see from the current establishment is all big talk but no follow through.
predator - a decade away[most ot technology available] - for making usa happy plus keeping with pak.
nasams2- already available, testing, for goi not iaf, safe guarding delhi.
istar - technology under development, need more than a decade, considering work load, may take more. most important purchase, unique, a dream of iaf.
p8i - follow on purchase, tec available
c 130j - mta jv terminated. infra available.
 

Hariharan_kalarikkal

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Yes, we can build one that satisfies are armed forces requirement. If you want to nurture local industry should be going with local platforms.

We have TAPAS-BH-201. It can carry all jobs that predator can do.

Buying off-the shelf items is not nurturing our local industry in any way. Lets not kid ourselves.

In what way is NASAM superior to Akash, VL-SRSAM or QRSAM? Elaborate with respect to armed forces specification.
Systems developed by DRDO as as per the specification of armed forces. If our system satisfy the requirement laid down in specification where comes the need of comparasion between Indian or western system. Blindly thinking western systems are superior will be foolhardy. With locally developed systems we will have complete IP ownership and know how for modification and update.
Tomorrow if we need to update EW threat library in ISTAR platform what will be easy; To update local platform or American platform
Just take PRC example. They have almost matched up with western system because they pushed for local development.
When I said nasams is superior
I said it is a shitty system just few minutes ago
👇
NASAMS is just virtue signalling, as @mist_consecutive pointed out, it's a shitty system
Yes, we can build one that satisfies are armed forces requirement. If you want to nurture local industry should be going with local platforms.
We have TAPAS-BH-201. It can carry all jobs that predator can do.
Kaha hai tapas? I have my biases, predator platform is used by Americans for past 2 decades, it's refined and combat tested
 

Dark Sorrow

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Security threat more than Chinkis at your doorstep???
What's your solution other than imports
Right from 1947 India has been under siege from several hostile countries be it Pakistan, US (1970s-1990s), PRC (from late 1950s).
Currently we are living in most stable era (PRC and Pakistan will continue to cause problem in LoC, AGPL, LOC and to some extent on IB) the so-called disputed territories but nothing more.
A large scale war is not predicted nor likely to happen in immediate future (10 years).
None of these so-called threat justify needless imports.
 

Dark Sorrow

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predator - a decade away[most ot technology available] - for making usa happy plus keeping with pak.
Its high time we should stop diplomatic appeasing using weapons purchase. What has US done with respect to Pakistan that has been in Indian interest. International weapons purchase (import) are nothing but waste of tax payers money. This money should be actually spent on imports where coutry can actually benefit from such deals.
nasams2- already available, testing, for goi not iaf, safe guarding delhi.
GoI is not directly responsible to safe guard Delhi. Its IAF and IA's AAD responsibility and both have enough system indigenous and imported (S-400) to safe gaurd NRC.
istar - technology under development, need more than a decade, considering work load, may take more. most important purchase, unique, a dream of iaf..
This dream came into being after IN used P8I to monitor activities against PLA.
Their is no urgency of such systems and DRDO is confident that it can deliver such systems. All sub-assemblies have already been developed and tested.
Situation against PRC has become stabilized (due to massive deployments). No need for panic buying or emergency buying.
 

Dark Sorrow

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Kaha hai tapas? I have my biases, predator platform is used by Americans for past 2 decades, it's refined and combat tested
How should I put it ... delayed because of import mentality.


What benefit will predator provide to our armed forces compared to TAPAS apart from the performance record of drone strikes in Af-Pak region (that suites US doctrine) compared to its pitfalls?

Importing a platform just because it fits an super-power combat doctrine is not advisable.

Do our armed forces even have a doctrine on how they will employ Predator platform?
 

johnj

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Its high time we should stop diplomatic appeasing using weapons purchase. What has US done with respect to Pakistan that has been in Indian interest. International weapons purchase (import) are nothing but waste of tax payers money. This money should be actually spent on imports where coutry can actually benefit from such deals.

GoI is not directly responsible to safe guard Delhi. Its IAF and IA's AAD responsibility and both have enough system indigenous and imported (S-400) to safe gaurd NRC.

This dream came into being after IN used P8I to monitor activities against PLA.
Their is no urgency of such systems and DRDO is confident that it can deliver such systems. All sub-assemblies have already been developed and tested.
Situation against PRC has become stabilized (due to massive deployments). No need for panic buying or emergency buying.
pakistan having armed drones and india buying from usa and not from israel to make uncle sam happy without any tot or indian make, and drdo taking more time for armed drones. india buying armed uav to keep up with pakistan and to make usa happy. usa didnt supply attack helio to paf. and blocked turkey sale plus for not putting caatsa in future.
iaf aad, not ia aad. iaf control air defence, and nasaams2 is going to operated by iaf in delhi for safeguarding civilian gov from drones or other sudden attack, and goi buying it to reduce caatsa [s400].
p8i operated by in not iaf, difference is huge. p8i is not a ISTAR aircraft, but it is better than nothing. istar is 10x better than p8i for ground surveillance, and not so easy to buy. it is not against prc but for pak, now for both. drdo still dont have technology for develop one, but can develop awacs, p8i etc, thats why buying from usa. i think even chinese struggle to develop one like israel/usa. design a high sar rf sensor equipped aircraft is not a issue for drdo. question is, why buy p8i when drdo is capable of design one. uttam is still under testing, i think and ISTAR aircraft design is complex like f35 sensor and targeting systems. lets see what usa offering[downgraded version].
 

mist_consecutive

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There are some big misconceptions or your folks are just unaware of the reality.

I, fully support acquiring istar aircraft, upto 4 of them. In case of c130j. it is very expensive buy for india[goi/mod], thats why mta jv, now cancelled. IAF need 80 more mta. India spend huge money to buy transport fleet and neglect fighting capability. In other word, IAF need new fighter jet more than transport fleet, or iaf become icf[indian cargo force] lifting cargo and humans during emergency once done by ia/ai.
There is a misconception about our generally overpriced deals of foreign equipment (C-130J/Rafale) and people think we are just getting the sucker's deal.
No, that is not the reason. We buy planes + logistics + infrastructure + training equipment + spares + customer support.
Out of these, further subsequent purchases are cheaper because the above-bold parts can be removed.

Now, coming to C130J, the capabilities:-
  • Its short-landing + takeoff on the badly unprepared ground is a capability not possessed by many and gives us a tremendous advantage in operation behind enemy lines.
  • Every C130J (Indian version) comes with some ISR equipment, some of them are IRST gimbal and a high-resolution SAR radar.
  • Efficient & reliable engines (better than any Russian transport plane).
  • Excellent safety & crash record.
Now coming to fighting capability, yes that too is necessary and we have money allocated to it (Rafales incoming, hopefully). We are also now buying & supporting Tejas & its future upgrades.

Predator -> TAPAS-BH-201 or should we say our drone program is failure. Ghatak UCAV is also in pipeline.
NASAMS 2 -> QRSAM, VL-SRSAM and Akash SAM (IAF Not Keen On NASAMS-II)
ISTAR -> DRDO has necessary technologies and is ready to develop and deliver such aircraft

Off the above, only P8I and C-130J can be justified.

If you never accept indigenous developed product you can never achieve self-sufficiency.
Make in India is of no use if you can't accept locally designed product. Design and manufacturing go hand in hand. Just take example of HAL they even import screws needed for aircraft.
History is filled with numerous examples where countries and its armed force have accepted products that were not proven or best or most economical just to support local industry.

All I can see from the current establishment is all big talk but no follow-through.
TAPAS-BH-201:- It's like a bicycle in front of a BMW. MQ-9 Reaper is an amalgamation of systems that includes high-resolution terrain-mapping SAR radar, high-def EO system, secured datalink, and weapon system.
Rustom-2 is only 20 years late, not to say other systems which make a drone lethal are nowhere to be seen.

ISTAR:- Again, gross simplification when we say DRDO has "necessary technologies". An ISTAR aircraft is a combination of sensor fusion, including a powerful SAR radar (<10cm resolution), EO system, surveillance system capable of picking up and deciphering enemy communication, electronic spoofing & blocking, battlefield-management system, and much more.
We are yet to develop a good compact SAR radar, and DRDO AEW&CS has shown promising results. However, it needs to mature.

On NASAMS, I agree, in fact, I have criticized this system quite harshly because of its exorbitant price tag and subpar performance.

All the above we can develope ourselves .
Iam Infact happe that , iaf will not buy nasam missile.
We are already self sufficient in SAM tech .
With only vshorad and xrsam remaining.
It is without any doubt we can develop all of these systems, the only constraint is time. If DRDO/ADE/HAL cannot produce a credible system within the stipulated time limit, it will seriously undermine our fighting capability.

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All these indigenous pitches are great, however, we have to strike the right balance between developing our defense ecosystem and providing our forces with the best capability.

We have to remember the primary goal of developing weapons is to provide our forces with the best capability, and the secondary goal is to make it in the country if possible.
 

johnj

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There are some big misconceptions or your folks are just unaware of the reality.



There is a misconception about our generally overpriced deals of foreign equipment (C-130J/Rafale) and people think we are just getting the sucker's deal.
No, that is not the reason. We buy planes + logistics + infrastructure + training equipment + spares + customer support.
Out of these, further subsequent purchases are cheaper because the above-bold parts can be removed.

Now, coming to C130J, the capabilities:-
  • Its short-landing + takeoff on the badly unprepared ground is a capability not possessed by many and gives us a tremendous advantage in operation behind enemy lines.
  • Every C130J (Indian version) comes with some ISR equipment, some of them are IRST gimbal and a high-resolution SAR radar.
  • Efficient & reliable engines (better than any Russian transport plane).
  • Excellent safety & crash record.
Now coming to fighting capability, yes that too is necessary and we have money allocated to it (Rafales incoming, hopefully). We are also now buying & supporting Tejas & its future upgrades.



TAPAS-BH-201:- It's like a bicycle in front of a BMW. MQ-9 Reaper is an amalgamation of systems that includes high-resolution terrain-mapping SAR radar, high-def EO system, secured datalink, and weapon system.
Rustom-2 is only 20 years late, not to say other systems which make a drone lethal are nowhere to be seen.

ISTAR:- Again, gross simplification when we say DRDO has "necessary technologies". An ISTAR aircraft is a combination of sensor fusion, including a powerful SAR radar (<10cm resolution), EO system, surveillance system capable of picking up and deciphering enemy communication, electronic spoofing & blocking, battlefield-management system, and much more.
We are yet to develop a good compact SAR radar, and DRDO AEW&CS has shown promising results. However, it needs to mature.

On NASAMS, I agree, in fact, I have criticized this system quite harshly because of its exorbitant price tag and subpar performance.



It is without any doubt we can develop all of these systems, the only constraint is time. If DRDO/ADE/HAL cannot produce a credible system within the stipulated time limit, it will seriously undermine our fighting capability.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All these indigenous pitches are great, however, we have to strike the right balance between developing our defense ecosystem and providing our forces with the best capability.

We have to remember the primary goal of developing weapons is to provide our forces with the best capability, and the secondary goal is to make it in the country if possible.
seriously. its not people, but goi minister said, c130j is very expensive. That why Medium Transport Aircraft Joint Venture with Russia initialized. Now cancelled, and more c130j, but just 6 and iaf need 60 plus. rafale price and c130 price not directly comparable, one with 30% fdi and other with specified improvement, 50% offsect, 80% avaliable rate. also iaf crashed one, 4 engine. goi acquired c130j to balance trade.
predator- cant use inside pak, expensive[according to iaf] and israel offering armed ones. US only sell downgraded versions.
istar- thats what im saying, need more time. and usa can offer much more[DATA]
BUT usa once blocked elm2052, arrow, armed drone, istar etc from israel before. Now considering those from usa.
nasaams 2 help countries already using amraam, also availability of aim 120d is ?.
lets see usa selling advanced istar or not and how advanced is it.
both p8i[under development, under tested, buggy] and c130j were political decision[balance trade], c17,ah64.chinook were chosen iaf over russian. iaf also choose airbus aerial refueler and goi not shown any interest saying its expensive.
most of these buys[US] politically motivated[from termination of sanctions to mtcr]
 

Anandhu Krishna

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Security threat more than Chinkis at your doorstep???
What's your solution other than imports
Chinks at the doorstep is not new and they are not gonna go away because we bought a overpriced underperforming AD system we don't need or a platform we can develop ourselves.
 

Anandhu Krishna

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India buying armed uav to keep up with pakistan.
You dont buy drones to counter drones. At least for the ones they are buying.

India buying from usa and not from israel to make uncle sam happy. usa didnt supply attack helio to paf. and blocked turkey sale plus for not putting caatsa in future.
"Buy overpriced weapons from me or I'm gonna supply it to your enemy. If you buy it from someone else cheaper and without the political baggage, I'm gonna use my domestic law to put economic sanctions on you."

Does that sound like a good position to be in for a weapons purchase negotiation!? or in general.!?

="johnj, post: 2045741, member: 42442"]
nasaams2 is going to operated by iaf in delhi
Already have much better, cheaper indigenous system.
 

Hariharan_kalarikkal

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Chinks at the doorstep is not new
The chinkis are looking for violence, I don't know about full blown war, although I believe it is on the horizon as well, you don't take my word for it, but it's my personal belief that some clash with Chinkis is coming
they are not gonna go away because we bought a overpriced underperforming AD system
It is for delhi, not for Chinkis, I'm no fan of nasams either, and it is not meant to make the chinkis run away, it is to aid our own capabilities
"Buy overpriced weapons from me or I'm gonna supply it to your enemy. If you buy it from someone else cheaper and without the political baggage, I'm gonna use my domestic law to put economic sanctions on you."

Does that sound like a good position to be in for a weapons purchase negotiation!? or in general.!?


Already have much better, cheaper indigenous system.
Our immediate adversary to whom the Umrikis can sell it to is the Paxstanis, who are in no position economically to even afford 1/10th of the order
Already have much better, cheaper indigenous system.
Apart from SAM systems which are those, as I said I have my biases against some stuff
 

samsaptaka

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johnj

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You dont buy drones to counter drones. At least for the ones they are buying.



"Buy overpriced weapons from me or I'm gonna supply it to your enemy. If you buy it from someone else cheaper and without the political baggage, I'm gonna use my domestic law to put economic sanctions on you."

Does that sound like a good position to be in for a weapons purchase negotiation!? or in general.!?


Already have much better, cheaper indigenous system.
not to counter, but acquiring same capability. to counter drone better buy/develop drone[sixth gen].
sound like uncle sam, yes that is how it works and dont forget caatsa.
how woud i know, a lots of countries doing it and better than surrendering own land and its works until the war starts after all its soldiers going to lose their life not civilian bureaucrats or politician.
iaf/ia already buying akash. plus spyder, barak.
 

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And yet no money to order LCH and even less interest to work with HAL and integrate an ATGM with it , reason being if that is done there won't be any excuse left to not buy it !
Integration of LCH with ATGM has started I think? There was some news in the DRDO thread.
 

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Pune: C-130 aircraft lands at NDA, airfield ready for operational military aviation, say officials | Pune News - Times of India

PUNE: NDA authorities said the airfield on the academy’s premises could be used for training and operational military aviation.
On September 23, a C-130 military transport aircraft successfully landed at the NDA airfield. An academy official said with the successful landing and take-off of the aircraft, the classification of the airfield as a facility hosting operations by frontline IAF transport aircraft has been ratified. “This milestone will go a long way in the use of the NDA airfield for training and operational military aviation,” the official said.

 

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