Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[fire starter]

 

[WolfPack86]

IAF asks for AESA Radar for 21 Mig-29UPG from Russia

According to Veteran Indian Air Force (IAF) Pilot Sameer Joshi, IAF has decided to go for a new Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar version called Zhuk-A/AM for the 21 Mig-29UPG which India plans to buy from Russia when Russian President Vladimir Putin is expected to visit India in October for the annual bilateral summit between the two countries. IAF which already operates 67 Mig-29A brought in 1984 has now upgraded them to the latest MiG-29UPG standard which comes with New Zhuk-ME Radar and with new enhanced RD-33 series 3 turbofan engines with a host of other avionics and capability upgrades and it assumed that IAF will go for the same avionics and configuration for the 21 Mig-29UPG which it plans to procure from Russia.

Phazontron-NIIR developed Zhuk-A/AM AESA Radar has over 1,000 solid-state transceiver-receiver modules. According to Phazontron-NIIR, the Russian Air force has opted for the same radar for their MiG-35 is to be equipped with Phazotron Zhuk-A/AE AESA radar that offers a wide range of operating frequencies, providing better resistance to electronic countermeasures (ECMs), extended detection range, and more air and ground targets detected. Defense analyst Ranesh Rajan reacting to the news told idrw.org that Zhuk-A/AE AESA radar at an ideal power rating of 10 Watts/channel has demonstrated a search range over 250km which is more than that of N011M radar (used in Su-30MKI) which at a peak power rating of 6.5 Watts/channel has search range over only 200km. Zhuk-A/AE AESA radar at a higher peak power rating of 15 Watts/channel can search for a 300km range. Zhuk-A/AE AESA radar might be also considered for the Entire 200 Sukhoi-30UPG Standard upgrade planned by India and Russia for the current Sukhoi-30MKI fleet but it needs to be seen if Russians will agree to provide Zhuk-A/AE AESA radar since Mig-35 is also in the race to provide India 114 jets and supply of Radar might take one key advantage for them said, Rajan.

IAF asks for AESA Radar for 21 Mig-29UPG from Russia – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

 

[WolfPack86]

#Indian Air Force purchase of 21 MiG-29UPG would come with Zhuk-AME AESA. The radar detects aerial targets at a distance of some 160 km and can simultaneously track up to 30 targets."The Zhuk-AME allows simultaneous engagement of 6 aerial and 4 ground targets," said the source.

 

[Brood Father]

No More Rafales! India Eyes US Stealth F-35 Jets As Washington Loosens Export Policy? OpEd

Amid reports suggesting the US could supply F-35 fighters to the United Arab Emirates (UAE), could India be next in line for finally landing a deal for the induction of the fifth-generation, stealth fighter jets amid continuing hostilities with China? Despite Dwindling GDP, Indian E-Commerce To...

eurasiantimes.com

Doesn't make sense but chatters around F35 has started

 

[LDev]

First you give the source that Tejas is Getting Uttam by 21 or it is far superior to russian AESA then we will talk further.

Many trolls declared Tejas better than F-16 and Gripen in 2006-7

Kaveri was declared better than Russian or even better than f 414.

Tejas was superior to F-16 better than Gripen with super stealth due to composite.

To enter serial production by 2010- 2012 then 15 then 18 lol .

Be realistic what's the point in waiting for another decade to get uttam when by that time many mig 29 airframe will be almost 50 yr old.

What you think abt IAF is upto you..

But IAF doesn't think like you that's for sure.. even if they didn't get it atleast they tried something sane.

You have said it. Just as the IAF did not upgrade the Mirage 2000 with an AESA radar because it was not cost effective for a 35 year old airframe, for the same reason the IAF will not upgrade the Mig 29 with an AESA radar. And definitely not a Russian AESA radar which is still under development.

Whether Uttam is ready in 2021 or 2022 is a moot point. But it will become operational eventually and then variants can be developed for other IAF aircraft.

 

[WolfPack86]

Taiwan plans to retire its Mirage -2000 fleet ! should India buy?

After the Trump administration cleared the sale of 66 F-16V to the Republic of China Air Force (ROCAF) and also cleared the path of upgrading its current fleet of 115 F-16s jets to the Dash-5 Upgrade configuration, Reports by Tawainese media have emerged after the supply of 66 F-16V ROCAF plans to resale its 54 Dassault Mirage 2000-5EI to an existing operator due to they are expensive to maintain and ROCAF has no budget left for them to be upgraded since their induction in 1992. Taipei’s focus on US systems at the expense of the more costly French jets has been widely criticized by the French side but Taiwanese Defence officials have acknowledged that the parts and supplies needed to maintain them were more expensive than those needed for the indigenous aircraft and the F-16s as more of the island’s shrinking defence budget was earmarked for US weapons. Taipei will spend nearly NT$13 billion (US$430 million) upgrading its existing F-16s fleet in the next five years and another US$13 Billion in the purchase of 66 F-16-V fight jets which will squeeze out every penny from its defense budget, which means nothing can be set aside for Mirage upgrades. With the addition of 66 New F-16s, Taipei’s F-16 fleet will be exactly 208 along with 130 locally developed AIDC F-CK-1 Ching-Kuo fighter jet. Taipei till now was the third-biggest operator of the Dassault Mirage 2000-5EI worldwide only behind United Arab Emirates Air Force (UAEAF) which operates 60 and the French Air Force which operates 315. Indian Air Force (IAF) operates around 49 Dassault Mirage 2000 which now has been locally upgraded to Dash-5 configuration which makes it the fourth-biggest operator presently. In 1984, the original Mirage deal was signed, the ‘Intention to Proceed’ contract was for an initial order of 40 aircraft for outright purchase in fly-away condition and an option to produce another 110 Mirages in Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in Bangalore, for which Dassault was agreeable to provide a total technology transfer. While India in past procured an additional 10 Mirage-2000s from France and was also interested in 12 Qatari Mirage-2000-5EDA but talks failed due to the high price. IAF still has plans to procure 2 more Two-seat trainers which were lost in accidents and might see Taiwan has one of the options to procure them. IAF’s Mirage-2000 fleet is now 36 years old but it still has plans to operate the Mirage-2000 fleet for another 15 years or so before they are replaced by Tejas Mk2 which currently is under development. The youngest of the Mirage-2000s fleet operated by ROCAF is just over 25 years old, air frames still have some good 10 years of airworthy life left in them and even procurement of 20-25 odd could come as a good boost to the current Mirage-2000 fleet which from Kargil War to Balakot Air strikes has been IAF’s go-to fighter jets for complicated operations.

Taiwan plans to retire its Mirage -2000 fleet ! should India buy? – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

 

[another_armchair]

Taiwan plans to retire its Mirage -2000 fleet ! should India buy?

After the Trump administration cleared the sale of 66 F-16V to the Republic of China Air Force (ROCAF) and also cleared the path of upgrading its current fleet of 115 F-16s jets to the Dash-5 Upgrade configuration, Reports by Tawainese media have emerged after the supply of 66 F-16V ROCAF plans to resale its 54 Dassault Mirage 2000-5EI to an existing operator due to they are expensive to maintain and ROCAF has no budget left for them to be upgraded since their induction in 1992. Taipei’s focus on US systems at the expense of the more costly French jets has been widely criticized by the French side but Taiwanese Defence officials have acknowledged that the parts and supplies needed to maintain them were more expensive than those needed for the indigenous aircraft and the F-16s as more of the island’s shrinking defence budget was earmarked for US weapons. Taipei will spend nearly NT$13 billion (US$430 million) upgrading its existing F-16s fleet in the next five years and another US$13 Billion in the purchase of 66 F-16-V fight jets which will squeeze out every penny from its defense budget, which means nothing can be set aside for Mirage upgrades. With the addition of 66 New F-16s, Taipei’s F-16 fleet will be exactly 208 along with 130 locally developed AIDC F-CK-1 Ching-Kuo fighter jet. Taipei till now was the third-biggest operator of the Dassault Mirage 2000-5EI worldwide only behind United Arab Emirates Air Force (UAEAF) which operates 60 and the French Air Force which operates 315. Indian Air Force (IAF) operates around 49 Dassault Mirage 2000 which now has been locally upgraded to Dash-5 configuration which makes it the fourth-biggest operator presently. In 1984, the original Mirage deal was signed, the ‘Intention to Proceed’ contract was for an initial order of 40 aircraft for outright purchase in fly-away condition and an option to produce another 110 Mirages in Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in Bangalore, for which Dassault was agreeable to provide a total technology transfer. While India in past procured an additional 10 Mirage-2000s from France and was also interested in 12 Qatari Mirage-2000-5EDA but talks failed due to the high price. IAF still has plans to procure 2 more Two-seat trainers which were lost in accidents and might see Taiwan has one of the options to procure them. IAF’s Mirage-2000 fleet is now 36 years old but it still has plans to operate the Mirage-2000 fleet for another 15 years or so before they are replaced by Tejas Mk2 which currently is under development. The youngest of the Mirage-2000s fleet operated by ROCAF is just over 25 years old, air frames still have some good 10 years of airworthy life left in them and even procurement of 20-25 odd could come as a good boost to the current Mirage-2000 fleet which from Kargil War to Balakot Air strikes has been IAF’s go-to fighter jets for complicated operations.

Taiwan plans to retire its Mirage -2000 fleet ! should India buy? – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

Depends on the condition they are in, cost of airframes, cost of upgrade, hours added to life etc.
If the sum total of costs exceeds USD 30 million per airframe, it is simply not worth it.
But knowing GoI, IAF and MoD, they are known to have taken strange decisions collectively so..

 

[JBH22]

The existing upgrade deal of Mirage 2000 with France was prohibitively expensive, no rationale to buy them to upgrade. Maybe get some to cannibalize for spare parts.

 

[Poseidon]

M2K are boss

 

[Rohan Naik]

Taiwan plans to retire its Mirage -2000 fleet ! should India buy?

After the Trump administration cleared the sale of 66 F-16V to the Republic of China Air Force (ROCAF) and also cleared the path of upgrading its current fleet of 115 F-16s jets to the Dash-5 Upgrade configuration, Reports by Tawainese media have emerged after the supply of 66 F-16V ROCAF plans to resale its 54 Dassault Mirage 2000-5EI to an existing operator due to they are expensive to maintain and ROCAF has no budget left for them to be upgraded since their induction in 1992. Taipei’s focus on US systems at the expense of the more costly French jets has been widely criticized by the French side but Taiwanese Defence officials have acknowledged that the parts and supplies needed to maintain them were more expensive than those needed for the indigenous aircraft and the F-16s as more of the island’s shrinking defence budget was earmarked for US weapons. Taipei will spend nearly NT$13 billion (US$430 million) upgrading its existing F-16s fleet in the next five years and another US$13 Billion in the purchase of 66 F-16-V fight jets which will squeeze out every penny from its defense budget, which means nothing can be set aside for Mirage upgrades. With the addition of 66 New F-16s, Taipei’s F-16 fleet will be exactly 208 along with 130 locally developed AIDC F-CK-1 Ching-Kuo fighter jet. Taipei till now was the third-biggest operator of the Dassault Mirage 2000-5EI worldwide only behind United Arab Emirates Air Force (UAEAF) which operates 60 and the French Air Force which operates 315. Indian Air Force (IAF) operates around 49 Dassault Mirage 2000 which now has been locally upgraded to Dash-5 configuration which makes it the fourth-biggest operator presently. In 1984, the original Mirage deal was signed, the ‘Intention to Proceed’ contract was for an initial order of 40 aircraft for outright purchase in fly-away condition and an option to produce another 110 Mirages in Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in Bangalore, for which Dassault was agreeable to provide a total technology transfer. While India in past procured an additional 10 Mirage-2000s from France and was also interested in 12 Qatari Mirage-2000-5EDA but talks failed due to the high price. IAF still has plans to procure 2 more Two-seat trainers which were lost in accidents and might see Taiwan has one of the options to procure them. IAF’s Mirage-2000 fleet is now 36 years old but it still has plans to operate the Mirage-2000 fleet for another 15 years or so before they are replaced by Tejas Mk2 which currently is under development. The youngest of the Mirage-2000s fleet operated by ROCAF is just over 25 years old, air frames still have some good 10 years of airworthy life left in them and even procurement of 20-25 odd could come as a good boost to the current Mirage-2000 fleet which from Kargil War to Balakot Air strikes has been IAF’s go-to fighter jets for complicated operations.

Taiwan plans to retire its Mirage -2000 fleet ! should India buy? – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

 

[bhramos]

No More Rafales! India Eyes US Stealth F-35 Jets As Washington Loosens Export Policy? OpEd

Amid reports suggesting the US could supply F-35 fighters to the United Arab Emirates (UAE), could India be next in line for finally landing a deal for the induction of the fifth-generation, stealth fighter jets amid continuing hostilities with China? Despite Dwindling GDP, Indian E-Commerce To...

eurasiantimes.com

Doesn't make sense but chatters around F35 has started

than look at this
US F-22 & F-35 For India,

 

[Lancer]

Taiwan plans to retire its Mirage -2000 fleet ! should India buy?

After the Trump administration cleared the sale of 66 F-16V to the Republic of China Air Force (ROCAF) and also cleared the path of upgrading its current fleet of 115 F-16s jets to the Dash-5 Upgrade configuration, Reports by Tawainese media have emerged after the supply of 66 F-16V ROCAF plans to resale its 54 Dassault Mirage 2000-5EI to an existing operator due to they are expensive to maintain and ROCAF has no budget left for them to be upgraded since their induction in 1992. Taipei’s focus on US systems at the expense of the more costly French jets has been widely criticized by the French side but Taiwanese Defence officials have acknowledged that the parts and supplies needed to maintain them were more expensive than those needed for the indigenous aircraft and the F-16s as more of the island’s shrinking defence budget was earmarked for US weapons. Taipei will spend nearly NT$13 billion (US$430 million) upgrading its existing F-16s fleet in the next five years and another US$13 Billion in the purchase of 66 F-16-V fight jets which will squeeze out every penny from its defense budget, which means nothing can be set aside for Mirage upgrades. With the addition of 66 New F-16s, Taipei’s F-16 fleet will be exactly 208 along with 130 locally developed AIDC F-CK-1 Ching-Kuo fighter jet. Taipei till now was the third-biggest operator of the Dassault Mirage 2000-5EI worldwide only behind United Arab Emirates Air Force (UAEAF) which operates 60 and the French Air Force which operates 315. Indian Air Force (IAF) operates around 49 Dassault Mirage 2000 which now has been locally upgraded to Dash-5 configuration which makes it the fourth-biggest operator presently. In 1984, the original Mirage deal was signed, the ‘Intention to Proceed’ contract was for an initial order of 40 aircraft for outright purchase in fly-away condition and an option to produce another 110 Mirages in Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in Bangalore, for which Dassault was agreeable to provide a total technology transfer. While India in past procured an additional 10 Mirage-2000s from France and was also interested in 12 Qatari Mirage-2000-5EDA but talks failed due to the high price. IAF still has plans to procure 2 more Two-seat trainers which were lost in accidents and might see Taiwan has one of the options to procure them. IAF’s Mirage-2000 fleet is now 36 years old but it still has plans to operate the Mirage-2000 fleet for another 15 years or so before they are replaced by Tejas Mk2 which currently is under development. The youngest of the Mirage-2000s fleet operated by ROCAF is just over 25 years old, air frames still have some good 10 years of airworthy life left in them and even procurement of 20-25 odd could come as a good boost to the current Mirage-2000 fleet which from Kargil War to Balakot Air strikes has been IAF’s go-to fighter jets for complicated operations.

Taiwan plans to retire its Mirage -2000 fleet ! should India buy? – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

If the terms are favorable, absolutely. We need the planes for sure, but these are ultimately 2nd hand so don't overpay for them.

Beyond a certain price, it would just be better to build more LCA's.

 

[Tactical Frog]

I guess that several airforces would like to get some of these Taiwanese Mirage 2000. Probably Argentina and Peru. In Africa I have a feeling that Ethiopia might be interested.

 

[Brood Father]

If the terms are favorable, absolutely. We need the planes for sure, but these are ultimately 2nd hand so don't overpay for them.

Beyond a certain price, it would just be better to build more LCA's.

Yes but given the current production rate of LCA , for 50 additional aircrafts we have to wait till 2028 and beyond ..but these 54 will be available to us much much sooner .. the advantages are that we already operate and love m2k so we can induct and use them fairly smoothly and moreover they only need to be stopgap only for next 10 years till Tejas MK2 gets rolling so no hassles of MLU , we can retire them by 2035..

IMO we should seriously consider this, 54 is a good number .

 

[JBH22]

MIG 29 AESA is not that great as portrayed. It is good for us but nowhere close to rafale RBE 2 AESA in capabilities & i don't think N011M BARS radar range is so pathetic as claimed, power rating of indian upgraded bars are heavily classified. rumoured has it the upgraded one has range upward of 300 km for a 5m2 Target in narrow FOV & 200km+ in volume search Here is a pic of Russian AESA for mig 29 & RBE 2 AESA which one do you think is better ?
View attachment 58059
View attachment 58060
I took second pic from another forum.

One thing for the price of one Rafale you get I think 2-3Mig 35, now this plane in its current configuration is good enough to take on PAF f-16.
If you shift entirely to western weapons, you will have to reduce the squadrons numbers because defence budget is not enough.
You have to see Russian weapons in terms of your numbers strategy, it gives decent cost performance ratio.
Come what may how Rafale is good, we could never get 200plus like we did for SU30 mki.

 

[Sridhar_TN]

One thing for the price of one Rafale you get I think 2-3Mig 35, now this plane in its current configuration is good enough to take on PAF f-16.
If you shift entirely to western weapons, you will have to reduce the squadrons numbers because defence budget is not enough.
You have to see Russian weapons in terms of your numbers strategy, it gives decent cost performance ratio.
Come what may how Rafale is good, we could never get 200plus like we did for SU30 mki.

We can get close to 200 if orders are significant. The price does come down. Overall life cycle costs are also lowered. Here’s the deal, the reason for shift from Russian planes , is time and again, iAf realized that capability wise, it does not offer much. Most of the strike roles are either done by jags or mirages. Not Russian ones. To add depth, and capability, rafales are the best solution. Not even the F35’s. If the IAF is able to cough up the money and spend it , keeping the next few decades in mind, it’s the right thing to do

 

[JBH22]

We can get close to 200 if orders are significant. The price does come down. Overall life cycle costs are also lowered. Here’s the deal, the reason for shift from Russian planes , is time and again, iAf realized that capability wise, it does not offer much. Most of the strike roles are either done by jags or mirages. Not Russian ones. To add depth, and capability, rafales are the best solution. Not even the F35’s. If the IAF is able to cough up the money and spend it , keeping the next few decades in mind, it’s the right thing to do

France which is the OEM operates a force of 200+ rafales and it is primary plane. If IAF is willing to operate an all western origin airforce then reduce size to tackle both PLAAF and PAF. At the end of the day you need numbers.

 

[Bleh]

We have currently 67 Mig 29s

62. From UPG upgrade numbers.

Another 222 have been completed by HAL in (140+40+42).

HAL had completed building 260 as of 2019 year ending.

 

[Flying Dagger]

You have said it. Just as the IAF did not upgrade the Mirage 2000 with an AESA radar because it was not cost effective for a 35 year old airframe, for the same reason the IAF will not upgrade the Mig 29 with an AESA radar. And definitely not a Russian AESA radar which is still under development.

Whether Uttam is ready in 2021 or 2022 is a moot point. But it will become operational eventually and then variants can be developed for other IAF aircraft.

AESA wasn't available then for MIRAGE when we signed the contract. It is already costing over 50 mm around to upgrade them with the kit provided by france .

The cost quoted for AESA radar upgrade was too high so dropped off since IAF was chasing Dassault for meteor specially last year.

Mirage upgrade was a dubious decision cost wise we were literally ripped off.

 

[Rohan Naik]

AESA wasn't available then for MIRAGE when we signed the contract. It is already costing over 50 mm around to upgrade them with the kit provided by france .

The cost quoted for AESA radar upgrade was too high so dropped off since IAF was chasing Dassault for meteor specially last year.

Mirage upgrade was a dubious decision cost wise we were literally ripped off.

Any details to what extent the Taiwanese Mirages are upgraded to?