Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

south block

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AMCA, whenever it comes must only be manufactured by a private company.

The Chinese airforce is currently having 87 squadrons worth of aircraft, that is not even counting the 200+ odd Xian JH-7 fighter bomber.
Why private company? all Chinese aircraft are made by state owned enterprise. HAL should build whole plane & no private chupa should be allowed anywhere close.
Pvt company should build its own plane ---- public money should go for public institutions.
 

Deathstar

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Why private company? all Chinese aircraft are made by state owned enterprise. HAL should build whole plane & no private chupa should be allowed anywhere close.
Pvt company should build its own plane ---- public money should go for public institutions.
Dont compare chinese state enterprises with HAL. They are miles better than HAL
 

Assassin 2.0

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Why private company? all Chinese aircraft are made by state owned enterprise. HAL should build whole plane & no private chupa should be allowed anywhere close.
Pvt company should build its own plane ---- public money should go for public institutions.
In China they don't go on strike.
Shenyang Aircraft Corporation doesn't go on strike or neither they demand extremely high price.
HAL will take high cost and will deliver third grade shit and will take thrice the time.
And laws of commie China are not very sweet I think if they find some employee useless they will better take his heart and kidney to make him of some worth.
 

Aniruddha Mulay

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Why private company? all Chinese aircraft are made by state owned enterprise. HAL should build whole plane & no private chupa should be allowed anywhere close.
Pvt company should build its own plane ---- public money should go for public institutions.
If even a single person does not work in a Chinese state owned company then he is probably behaded.
Here, no action is taken on HAL labour union strikes.
 

south block

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Dont compare chinese state enterprises with HAL. They are miles better than HAL
HAL is light years ahead of any Indian Pvt aerospace manufacturer in both skilled workforce & indigenous technology. defence sector & manufacturing should be strictly under Govt control from raw material to finished product for strategic reason --- Pvt chuppa's will cost this country a war.
In China they don't go on strike.
Shenyang Aircraft Corporation doesn't go on strike or neither they demand extremely high price.
HAL will take high cost and will deliver third grade shit and will take thrice the time.
And laws of commie China are not very sweet I think if they find some employee useless they will better take his heart and kidney to make him of some worth.
strike do happen there --- but compensation & other necessities of workers are met.....end result speedy manufacturing with total govt control & no leak :wink: ---- while every other Indian working in Pvt chupa sector want a govt job for obvious reasons :biggrin2:
 

Deathstar

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HAL is light years ahead of any Indian Pvt aerospace manufacturer in both skilled workforce & indigenous technology. defence sector & manufacturing should be strictly under Govt control from raw material to finished product for strategic reason --- Pvt chuppa's will cost this country a war.

strike do happen there --- but compensation & other necessities of workers are met.....end result speedy manufacturing with total govt control & no leak :wink: ---- while every other Indian working in Pvt chupa sector want a govt job for obvious reasons :biggrin2:
HAL is miles ahead cz it has a monopoly in that sector while worlds biggest aerospace industries are pvt aka LM , Boeing , Airbus.
If we had allowed some pvt companies since indeoindepen they would have become way bigger than HAL
 

Assassin 2.0

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but compensation & other necessities of workers are met.....end result speedy manufacturing with total govt control & no leak
Some workers which gave interviews after working under Chinese companies. ( I think in China they call STRIKES AS LABOUR MILITANCY.)
(Lusaka) – Chinese-run copper mining companies in Zambia routinely flout labor laws and regulations designed to protect workers’ safety and the right to organize, Human Rights Watch said in a report released today. Zambia’s newly elected president, Michael Sata, a longtime critic of the Chinese labor practices, should act on his campaign promises to end the abuse and improve government regulation of the mining industry to ensure that all companies respect Zambia’s labor laws.

The 122-page report, “‘You’ll Be Fired If You Refuse’: Labor Abuses in Zambia’s Chinese State-owned Copper Mines,” details the persistent abuses in Chinese-run mines, including poor health and safety conditions, regular 12-hour and even 18-hour shifts involving arduous labor, and anti-union activities, all in violation of Zambia’s national laws or international labor standards. The four Chinese-run copper mining companies in Zambia are subsidiaries of China Non-Ferrous Metals Mining Corporation, a state-owned enterprise under the authority of China’s highest executive body. Copper mining is the lifeblood of the Zambian economy, contributing nearly 75 percent of the country’s exports and two-thirds of the central government revenue.

“China’s significant investment in Zambia’s copper mining industry can benefit both Chinese and Zambians,” said Daniel Bekele, Africa director at Human Rights Watch. “But the miners in Chinese-run companies have been subject to abusive health, safety, and labor conditions and longtime government indifference.”
Sometimes when you find yourself in a dangerous position, they tell you to go ahead with the work,” an underground miner at Non-Ferrous China Africa (NFCA) told Human Rights Watch. “They just consider production, not safety. If someone dies, he can be replaced tomorrow. And if you report the problem, you’ll lose your job.”

11/11/2019
Low pay, poor working conditions and abusive managers are well documented at many Chinese-owned enterprises in Vietnam, as are the strikes and protests staged by workers in response. Joe Buckley examines several recent such protests and suggests that these problems are not just confined to Chinese enterprises but are found across Vietnam, regardless of enterprise ownership.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Vaw3AzY7JlOI6Nb9fFLWyAwZC&cshid=1577297033378
 
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Knowitall

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HAL is light years ahead of any Indian Pvt aerospace manufacturer in both skilled workforce & indigenous technology. defence sector & manufacturing should be strictly under Govt control from raw material to finished product for strategic reason --- Pvt chuppa's will cost this country a war.

strike do happen there --- but compensation & other necessities of workers are met.....end result speedy manufacturing with total govt control & no leak :wink: ---- while every other Indian working in Pvt chupa sector want a govt job for obvious reasons :biggrin2:
Office ke strike me bhag lena band karo aur office jao.
 

south block

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If even a single person does not work in a Chinese state owned company then he is probably behaded.
Here, no action is taken on HAL labour union strikes.
No beheading happen there & HAL is doing fine , Corporate slave need not to worry :)
HAL is miles ahead cz it has a monopoly in that sector while worlds biggest aerospace industries are pvt aka LM , Boeing , Airbus.
If we had allowed some pvt companies since indeoindepen they would have become way bigger than HAL
state monopoly in defence manufacturing is a good thing so does in many other sector ---- no need to get Pvt sector involve & compromise India security.
Some workers which gave interviews after working under Chinese companies. ( I think in China they call STRIKES AS LABOUR MILITANCY.)
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November 3, 2011 2:45AM EDT
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Zambia: Workers Detail Abuse in Chinese-Owned Mines
Enforce Health, Safety, and Labor Laws in Copper Mining Industry

Print
2011_Zambia_chinesecopperminesEXPAND
A Zambian does construction work at China Luanshya Mine as a Chinese manager looks on. China Luanshya Mine is one of four copper mining companies in Zambia operated by the Chinese parastatal China Non-Ferrous Metal Mining Company. © 2011 Thomas Lekfeldt/Moment/Redux
(Lusaka) – Chinese-run copper mining companies in Zambia routinely flout labor laws and regulations designed to protect workers’ safety and the right to organize, Human Rights Watch said in a report released today. Zambia’s newly elected president, Michael Sata, a longtime critic of the Chinese labor practices, should act on his campaign promises to end the abuse and improve government regulation of the mining industry to ensure that all companies respect Zambia’s labor laws.

The 122-page report, “‘You’ll Be Fired If You Refuse’: Labor Abuses in Zambia’s Chinese State-owned Copper Mines,” details the persistent abuses in Chinese-run mines, including poor health and safety conditions, regular 12-hour and even 18-hour shifts involving arduous labor, and anti-union activities, all in violation of Zambia’s national laws or international labor standards. The four Chinese-run copper mining companies in Zambia are subsidiaries of China Non-Ferrous Metals Mining Corporation, a state-owned enterprise under the authority of China’s highest executive body. Copper mining is the lifeblood of the Zambian economy, contributing nearly 75 percent of the country’s exports and two-thirds of the central government revenue.

“China’s significant investment in Zambia’s copper mining industry can benefit both Chinese and Zambians,” said Daniel Bekele, Africa director at Human Rights Watch. “But the miners in Chinese-run companies have been subject to abusive health, safety, and labor conditions and longtime government indifference.”
Sometimes when you find yourself in a dangerous position, they tell you to go ahead with the work,” an underground miner at Non-Ferrous China Africa (NFCA) told Human Rights Watch. “They just consider production, not safety. If someone dies, he can be replaced tomorrow. And if you report the problem, you’ll lose your job.”

11/11/2019
Low pay, poor working conditions and abusive managers are well documented at many Chinese-owned enterprises in Vietnam, as are the strikes and protests staged by workers in response. Joe Buckley examines several recent such protests and suggests that these problems are not just confined to Chinese enterprises but are found across Vietnam, regardless of enterprise ownership.
I can give you link to many articles on pathetic conditions of workers in Pvt sector around the world including India & why every 2nd India working in Pvt chuppa sector won't a govt job :)
 

south block

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Some workers which gave interviews after working under Chinese companies. ( I think in China they call STRIKES AS LABOUR MILITANCY.)
(Lusaka) – Chinese-run copper mining companies in Zambia routinely flout labor laws and regulations designed to protect workers’ safety and the right to organize, Human Rights Watch said in a report released today. Zambia’s newly elected president, Michael Sata, a longtime critic of the Chinese labor practices, should act on his campaign promises to end the abuse and improve government regulation of the mining industry to ensure that all companies respect Zambia’s labor laws.

The 122-page report, “‘You’ll Be Fired If You Refuse’: Labor Abuses in Zambia’s Chinese State-owned Copper Mines,” details the persistent abuses in Chinese-run mines, including poor health and safety conditions, regular 12-hour and even 18-hour shifts involving arduous labor, and anti-union activities, all in violation of Zambia’s national laws or international labor standards. The four Chinese-run copper mining companies in Zambia are subsidiaries of China Non-Ferrous Metals Mining Corporation, a state-owned enterprise under the authority of China’s highest executive body. Copper mining is the lifeblood of the Zambian economy, contributing nearly 75 percent of the country’s exports and two-thirds of the central government revenue.

“China’s significant investment in Zambia’s copper mining industry can benefit both Chinese and Zambians,” said Daniel Bekele, Africa director at Human Rights Watch. “But the miners in Chinese-run companies have been subject to abusive health, safety, and labor conditions and longtime government indifference.”
Sometimes when you find yourself in a dangerous position, they tell you to go ahead with the work,” an underground miner at Non-Ferrous China Africa (NFCA) told Human Rights Watch. “They just consider production, not safety. If someone dies, he can be replaced tomorrow. And if you report the problem, you’ll lose your job.”

11/11/2019
Low pay, poor working conditions and abusive managers are well documented at many Chinese-owned enterprises in Vietnam, as are the strikes and protests staged by workers in response. Joe Buckley examines several recent such protests and suggests that these problems are not just confined to Chinese enterprises but are found across Vietnam, regardless of enterprise ownership.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://digitalcommons.ilr.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1032&context=reports&ved=2ahUKEwiu36agsdHmAhUXwzgGHR6bCzgQFjAPegQICRAB&usg=AOvVaw3AzY7JlOI6Nb9fFLWyAwZC&cshid=1577297033378
Chinese state owned in Vietnam not china :)
 

Assassin 2.0

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No beheading happen there & HAL is doing fine , Corporate slave need not to worry
girl aged six discovered a desperate note in her pack of Christmas cards from a Chinese prisoner forced to work against their will.
Florence Widdicombe, from London, was stunned when she opened the new box of charity cards from UK-based grocery chain Tesco. Instead of a Christmas greeting, she found the scrawled message inside.

It is believed to have been written by a foreign prisoner who was made to pack the cards in boxes at a gulag in Shanghai, The Sun reported.

FEATURES | SOCIETY | EAST ASIA
China’s Forced Labor Problem
Forced labor in China receives remarkably little attention despite decades as the world’s factory floor.

By Peter Bengtsen
March 21, 2018
China’s Forced Labor Problem
A girl works at a brick kiln at Liuwu Village in Yuncheng in China’s Shanxi province in this June 15, 2007 file photo.

Credit: AP Photo/Color China Photo, FIle
In China, forced labor is sensitive topic. Years pass between the odd case of forced labor that sees the light of day in local media. Local labor NGOs rarely approach incidents of serious coercion in forced labor terms. Nobody knows the real extent, and surprisingly few, from China as well as abroad, prioritize exploring this issue. Within the last decade, a handful of cases amounting to forced labor in China have been brought to light, all with certain characteristics in common pointing to a need for closer scrutiny.

Brick Kiln Slavery

The first, and worst, was the incident of enslaved young and elderly people as well as adults with disabilities in brick kilns. Over a decade ago, during the summer of 2007, it became publicly known that people – many people – from rural areas were being kidnapped and forced to work in kilns in Shanxi province. The affair was, uniquely, kicked off by parents mobilizing together in search for their missing children. These parents scoured the countryside and, sometimes, found their children working in the kilns.

Chinese media covered the events unfolding and extensively documented the regular, traditional slavery conditions in the kilns, the organized trafficking and how local communities and authorities knew about it — and sometimes were directly involved. Eventually, the national government launched an investigation into the kilns of Shanxi, resulting in inspections of almost 5,000 kilns and rescues of hundreds of enslaved workers, who spoke about abductions, captivity, beatings, and inhumane conditions. In the following years the practice was documented in several other provinces. The practice of forced labor in brick kilns has never been fully eradicated.

”Even if today the archipelago of ’black kilns’ that came to light in 2007 does not exist anymore, that kind of extreme situation periodically resurfaces on the Chinese media,” says Ivan Franceschini, a fellow at the Australian National University who authored a book about the kiln slavery. “In particular, people with mental problems often fall victim to human traffickers and are sold as slave labor to kilns and other harsh realities that rely on a cheap, pliable slave workforce to make a profit.”

Enjoying this article? Click here to subscribe for full access. Just $5 a month.

Forced Electronics Internships

Other industries also rely on a cheap and pliable workforce amounting to forced labor by the exploitation of a large numbers of student interns from vocational schools. While company-based learning is supposed to be a crucial component of vocational educations, students are forced to accept internships in manufacturing industries — irrespective of the relevance of the industry for the students’ education — under the threat of failing to graduate if they decline.

Whereas such company-school partnerships have been practiced for many years, international attention was raised only in 2012, when forced internships were linked to global electronics supply chains.

“Vocational school students are sent to electronics factories, such as Foxconn and Quanta, to work as ordinary production line workers in the name of compulsory internship. Many, we met, were studying subjects irrelevant to electronics and told about threats by schools that they will not graduate from schools, if they refuse the internships,” says Michael Ma, project manager for Students and Scholars Against Corporate Misbehavior (SACOM), a Hong Kong based nonprofit behind several investigations.

New cases continue to be documented in electronics factories supplying brands like Apple, Sony, Dell, HP, and Acer. The practice seems unchanged by schools and electronics manufacturers, while brands dodge the issue.

Withheld Wages in Construction

In recent months, because of Chinese New Year on February 16, annual wage arrear protests have peaked because of withheld payments. Especially in construction, wages are withheld for up to a year and together with widespread lack of employment contracts, excessive and illegal overtime, and the dependency on employers for housing and food for many of the unpaid workers could amount to forced labor, I recently argued in an article for openDemocracy. Most construction workers caught up in this practice are rural migrants systematically discriminated because of China’s household registration system (hukou
 

Aniruddha Mulay

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HAL is light years ahead of any Indian Pvt aerospace manufacturer in both skilled workforce & indigenous technology. defence sector & manufacturing should be strictly under Govt control from raw material to finished product for strategic reason --- Pvt chuppa's will cost this country a war.

strike do happen there --- but compensation & other necessities of workers are met.....end result speedy manufacturing with total govt control & no leak :wink: ---- while every other Indian working in Pvt chupa sector want a govt job for obvious reasons :biggrin2:
Everyone wants a govt job because they know even if they do not work, no one is firing them from their job.
A brand new Su30 on flight trials crashed, an upgraded Mirage 2000 crashed resulting in deaths of two of our finest pilots, first flight of Tejas SP-21 FOC delayed from Nov 2019 to Jan 2020. Yes, HAL is doing perfectly fine.

During the Kargil war, a company by the name Bharat Forge delivered way more artillery shells to the Indian Army compared to OFB. Also, the shells delivered by Bharat Forge were of much better quality.
 

Bleh

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Everyone wants a govt job because they know even if they do not work, no one is firing them from their job.
A brand new Su30 on flight trials crashed, an upgraded Mirage 2000 crashed resulting in deaths of two of our finest pilots, first flight of Tejas SP-21 FOC delayed from Nov 2019 to Jan 2020. Yes, HAL is doing perfectly fine.

During the Kargil war, a company by the name Bharat Forge delivered way more artillery shells to the Indian Army compared to OFB. Also, the shells delivered by Bharat Forge were of much better quality.
Fully govt owned (or govt run) bodies shouldn't do manufacturing & maintenance work... Let IAF do their own maintenance or make deal with private contractors.

Keeping DRDO & ADA for R&D work (not basic shit like shoes or MREs either) with complete or partial privatisation of HAL, CVRDE, OFB are the only viable way forward.
 
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Bhurki

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During the Kargil war, a company by the name Bharat Forge delivered way more artillery shells to the Indian Army compared to OFB. Also, the shells delivered by Bharat Forge were of much better quality.
There's a huge difference between capabilities required to produce artillery shells and combat aircraft..
Acquiring those capabilities requires decades of engineering expertise and massive capex which private companies have a tough time managing. In MIC,.either you stay ahead of the curve like LM, or get wiped out..
 

Aniruddha Mulay

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There's a huge difference between capabilities required to produce artillery shells and combat aircraft..
Acquiring those capabilities requires decades of engineering expertise and massive capex which private companies have a tough time managing. In MIC,.either you stay ahead of the curve like LM, or get wiped out..
Because of inefficiency of HAL, IAF is extremely low on number of fighter aircraft.
Agreed that it will take pvt companies a lot of time to develop expertise in making aircraft, but they need to be given a chance to so that in the future we have an alternative to HAL.
 

Bhurki

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Because of inefficiency of HAL, IAF is extremely low on number of fighter aircraft.
Tell me whats better....Less production or no production?
Because right now, there's not a single entity that can replace HAL.
If you want to talk about hypothetical stuff, you can keep going on..
 

Bleh

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Because of inefficiency of HAL, IAF is extremely low on number of fighter aircraft.
Agreed that it will take pvt companies a lot of time to develop expertise in making aircraft, but they need to be given a chance to so that in the future we have an alternative to HAL.
BULLSHIT. IAF's low numbers are because of mismanagement under successive governments, their own corrupt & shortsighted leadership over past several decades... Oh, and their elegant record of 45% crashes due to human error.
Just look at our record! IAF & the then Khangress govt killed Indian Maroot development line stalling basic aerospace advancements during crucial years, made IAF Mig-museum by ordering every piece of shit they produced & crashing half of them for lack of spare-parts, ruined the prospects of license building 120 Mirage-2000s in India, then they blundered their way to the MMRCA joke that continues today!

Even if some angelic private company who's not in the business for profit but to serve India:sad: partners up with HAL right now, they will not invest a single dime in expanding or speeding up Tejas production.
HAL should definitely get their share of blame but pretending that IAF doesn't owe them ₹20,000 crores or hasn't not extended orders for additional FOC Tejas, or that that this govt had made a single attempt to expand their capacity to 24 per year or even sealed the Mark1A deal yet... simply won't do.

SP-21, 22, 23 d 24 were to be delivered by March 2020. All 4 were being fitted out in jigs when last their photos were out. If the structures are complete, they can still be out before deadline.
 
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Narasimh

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Because of inefficiency of HAL, IAF is extremely low on number of fighter aircraft.
Agreed that it will take pvt companies a lot of time to develop expertise in making aircraft, but they need to be given a chance to so that in the future we have an alternative to HAL.
AFAIK the ALH Dhruv was offered for partnering up by HAL to produce but none came forward. IAF chief recently said that Pvt sector only wants to partner for mrca with foreign companies but not taking initiative on indigenous projects. Clearly there is no one entity which can be balmed entirely for current state of Indian aerospace. It is to be shared by all of them IAF, HAL, Pvt sector, Govt.
 

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