Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[ezsasa]

I know its OT but could you say why?
We do import majority of our sensors, EW, radar suite, missile systems from them.

simple, israel already has a security pact with U.S and U.S is well placed to protect israel and we are not.

 

[WolfPack86]

IAF has started receiving the new version of the Spice 2000 bombs from Israel. The first batch of the new version of the bombs was delivered to India recently. (ANI)

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Russia Says Discussing Production Of S-400 Missiles In India: Report

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/rus...-in-india-report-2101406?amp=1&akamai-rum=off

 

[Angad Singh]

The IAF is the most technologically advanced and intensive service because the medium in which we operate requires it—that is the air and space domain. The modernisation plan of the IAF thus essentially centres around the induction of the state of the art weapons as far as possible and the ability to upgrade whatever we have to make it more combat-capable to retain IAF is the most technologically advanced and intensive service, because the medium in which we operate requires it—that is the air and space domain. The modernisation plan of the IAF thus essentially centres around the induction of the state of the art weapons as far as possible and the ability to upgrade whatever we have to make it more combat-capable to retain its operational relevance.

Well written article on saluteindia.org by Air Marshal R. Nambiar check it for a comprehensive breakdown https://saluteindia.org/military-modernisation-indian-air-force/

 

[tarunraju]

MICA NG+IR AAM getting integrated with IAF Mirage-2000I

This missile has a combination of AESA seeker and a refreshed liquid propellant engine that gives it range comparable to AIM-120C.

IAF is already integrating I-Derby ER (100 km) with Su-30MKI.

All these AAM orders are quantitative.

 

[arya]

WHY MMRCA file is not moving , who is delaying MMRCA2??

IAF need new fighter planes but who is delaying all process ??

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

MICA NG+IR AAM getting integrated with IAF Mirage-2000I

This missile has a combination of AESA seeker and a refreshed liquid propellant engine that gives it range comparable to AIM-120C.

IAF is already integrating I-Derby ER (100 km) with Su-30MKI.

All these AAM orders are quantitative.

Mica-ng wont be ready before 2026.

 

[Anathema]

The IAF is the most technologically advanced and intensive service because the medium in which we operate requires it—that is the air and space domain. The modernisation plan of the IAF thus essentially centres around the induction of the state of the art weapons as far as possible and the ability to upgrade whatever we have to make it more combat-capable to retain IAF is the most technologically advanced and intensive service, because the medium in which we operate requires it—that is the air and space domain. The modernisation plan of the IAF thus essentially centres around the induction of the state of the art weapons as far as possible and the ability to upgrade whatever we have to make it more combat-capable to retain its operational relevance.

Well written article on saluteindia.org by Air Marshal R. Nambiar check it for a comprehensive breakdown https://saluteindia.org/military-modernisation-indian-air-force/

Good find - especially coming from what most probably will be the Next Air Chief of Indian Air Force !

 

[Bhurki]

WHY MMRCA file is not moving , who is delaying MMRCA2??

IAF need new fighter planes but who is delaying all process ??

Lack of funds is delaying the process.
Mmrca is to cost at least $20 billion, which is a lot money to throw around.

 

[WolfPack86]

On IAF’s post-Balakot feelers on possible Meteor missile integration on Mirage 2000, MBDA has responded saying MICA NG a lower cost/risk, better fit solution than Meteor on the Mirage platform.

Second generation MICA-NG designed against stealthy targets. Infrared seeker will use a matrix sensor providing greater sensitivity. The radio frequency seeker will use an AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array).
https://www.facebook.com/pg/TeamAMCA/photos/?ref=page_internal

 

[WolfPack86]

On IAF’s post-Balakot feelers on possible Meteor missile integration on Mirage 2000, @byMBDA has responded saying MICA NG a lower cost/risk, better fit solution than Meteor on the Mirage platform.

 

[Bhurki]

On IAF’s post-Balakot feelers on possible Meteor missile integration on Mirage 2000, @byMBDA has responded saying MICA NG a lower cost/risk, better fit solution than Meteor on the Mirage platform.

France had ordered 567 mica ng for their own forces last year. Wouldn't be a suprise if they are trying us to bankroll their development costs. Also IAF has already set their eyes on asraam. Wonder why would they go for a missile of comparable characteristics since we already have mica.

 

[uoftotaku]

On IAF’s post-Balakot feelers on possible Meteor missile integration on Mirage 2000, @byMBDA has responded saying MICA NG a lower cost/risk, better fit solution than Meteor on the Mirage platform.

The French themselves have no plans to integrate Meteor on the M2000 as the platform is not able to exploit the missile's full capabilities. The Meteor for eg has a longer engagement range than the RDY radar, this was same limitation that was holding back the Rafale F1 and F2 models.

In terms of physical carriage ability also, the M2000 is limited in carrying a missile like the Meteor only on its inner wing hardpoint (where they originally carried the Super 530D) so at most only 2 can be carried at the cost of 2 drop tanks. The MICA is specifically sized to fit onto the M2000's outer wing and ventral hardpoints so that 6 can be carried alongside 3 drop tanks.

The MICA-NG is being pursued to complement the Meteor in the medium range zone. The French envision a combination of Meteor, MICA-NG-EM and MICA-NG-IR to be carried on the Rafale to provide a full spectrum of optimized engagement means.

 

[Wisemarko]

MICA NG+IR AAM getting integrated with IAF Mirage-2000I

This missile has a combination of AESA seeker and a refreshed liquid propellant engine that gives it range comparable to AIM-120C.

IAF is already integrating I-Derby ER (100 km) with Su-30MKI.

All these AAM orders are quantitative.

Logic of buying expensive MICA-NG?

MICA-NG will be operational not before 2026 (https://mobile.navaltoday.com/2018/...on-mica-ng-missile-for-french-navy-air-force/.) that too if all the development and testing go well. They are as expensive as AMRAAM!

Even after all these years, the range is close to older AMRAAM C7. Meanwhile, AIM-120D version is already in production and deployed with range close to 160 km. AIM-260 is in development and will be operational in 2024. The Chinese P-15 has effective range over 150km.

Entire Mirage upgrade program is obsolete. Instead of AESA or even PESA, French offered India a mechanically scanned, old RDY Radar with systems developed in late 1990s for UAE at $40 million per plane!

Obviously, Meteor could not be integrated with obsolete systems and a short ranged radar.

Meanwhile, F-16 block 70 available today has AESA, AMRAAM, and will easily outrange these Mirages.

IAF needs to move away from over reliance on French. Their systems are at least 10-15 years behind and yet cost more. In rapidly changing geopolitical conditions, diversified weapons supply is key to improving defense.

IAF must push for better deal terms with French. They seem to have paid off the right people in Indian government to corner such ridiculous deals.

 

[uoftotaku]

Logic of buying expensive MICA-NG?

MICA-NG will be operational not before 2026 (https://mobile.navaltoday.com/2018/...on-mica-ng-missile-for-french-navy-air-force/.) that too if all the development and testing go well. They are as expensive as AMRAAM!

Even after all these years, the range is close to older AMRAAM C7. Meanwhile, AIM-120D version is already in production and deployed with range close to 160 km. AIM-260 is in development and will be operational in 2024. The Chinese P-15 has effective range over 150km.

Entire Mirage upgrade program is obsolete. Instead of AESA or even PESA, French offered India a mechanically scanned, old RDY Radar with systems developed in late 1990s for UAE at $40 million per plane!

Obviously, Meteor could not be integrated with obsolete systems and a short ranged radar.

Meanwhile, F-16 block 70 available today has AESA, AMRAAM, and will easily outrange these Mirages.

IAF needs to move away from over reliance on French. Their systems are at least 10-15 years behind and yet cost more. In rapidly changing geopolitical conditions, diversified weapons supply is key to improving defense.

IAF must push for better deal terms with French. They seem to have paid off the right people in Indian government to corner such ridiculous deals.

All out range is not the be all and end all of air combat. BVR engagement, especially at extreme ranges is a complicated and dangerous business. And extreme range shots have a pathetic success rate...just ask the PAF

Even the USAF has recognized that putting 4-6 AIM-120D's onto a single aircraft is both a waste of resources and hugely costly proposition. Which is why they are aggressively pursuing a 2-pronged approach to their future air combat missile architecture with the AIM-260 on one hand taking the top end and the new Cuda / Peregrine taking on the low end.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/raytheon-unveils-peregrine-new-medium-range-air-t-460891/

This is the same approach being pursued in Europe with the Meteor / MICA-NG combination. There is a recognition that engagements at 80nm+ will be both rare and largely unsuccessful. Most combat will take place within a 25-40nm kill zone with heavy countermeasure saturation. The importance of agility, active multi-mode seeker technology and an expanded no-escape zone will be paramount. Most importantly, you need the ability to take and sustain multiple shots. If all you're slinging is $3M+ long range AAMs, you're gonna run out of ammo pretty quick.

I get the argument that MICA is expensive, but the capability it provides is already superior to the AMRAAM A/B/C1-5 within its engagement envelope. The NG version will plug the gap that currently exists in relation to the C5+ variants while upgrading the guidance and control systems even further.

 

[Wisemarko]

All out range is not the be all and end all of air combat. BVR engagement, especially at extreme ranges is a complicated and dangerous business. And extreme range shots have a pathetic success rate...just ask the PAF

Even the USAF has recognized that putting 4-6 AIM-120D's onto a single aircraft is both a waste of resources and hugely costly proposition. Which is why they are aggressively pursuing a 2-pronged approach to their future air combat missile architecture with the AIM-260 on one hand taking the top end and the new Cuda / Peregrine taking on the low end.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/raytheon-unveils-peregrine-new-medium-range-air-t-460891/

This is the same approach being pursued in Europe with the Meteor / MICA-NG combination. There is a recognition that engagements at 80nm+ will be both rare and largely unsuccessful. Most combat will take place within a 25-40nm kill zone with heavy countermeasure saturation. The importance of agility, active multi-mode seeker technology and an expanded no-escape zone will be paramount. Most importantly, you need the ability to take and sustain multiple shots. If all you're slinging is $3M+ long range AAMs, you're gonna run out of ammo pretty quick.

I get the argument that MICA is expensive, but the capability it provides is already superior to the AMRAAM A/B/C1-5 within its engagement envelope. The NG version will plug the gap that currently exists in relation to the C5+ variants while upgrading the guidance and control systems even further.

Cuda is a LM concept. Not accepted by USAF for any replacement. Peregrine is not accepted into USAF either. It is Raytheon’s product after losing AIM-260 contest to LM and internally funded program. It is aimed at export and for forces not cleared for AIM-260. It is not intended to complement AIM-260. AIM-260 will replace all AMRAAM in USAF. AIM-9X will continue as well.

BVR range is extremely important. Without adequate BVR supremacy, there cannot be air superiority. 80nm you quoted is a long range not medium.

BVR missiles suffered for long time with poor pK at end of their range envelop due to many factors as you know- mainly poor terminal kinematics and target acquisition. Both of these are being addressed by incorporation of dual pulse motors (or ramjet as in Meteor) and better seekers coupled with AESA. The next generation BVR missiles are game changer. So $2-3 million missile is totally ok to bring down a $100+ million enemy aircraft.

MICA is inferior to AMRAAM C7 and D in every aspect. Let’s not argue there. MICA-NG barely meets AIM-120 C-7. I do like MICA IR as it gives option of fire and forget kill without any warning but one needs to get close enough. With presence of enemy AWACS and own lack of stealth, Mirage cannot risk getting close to F-16 without Meteor.

Limits on most USAF and USN aircraft for AMRAAM is not cost but bring back capacity.

 

[uoftotaku]

BVR range is extremely important. Without adequate BVR supremacy, there cannot be air superiority.

MICA is inferior to AMRAAM C7 and D in every aspect. Let’s not argue there. MICA-NG barely meets AIM-120 C-7. .

BVR range is important when you are able to successfully de-conflict and conduct a IFF scan without interference and get a confirmed firing solution on incoming bandits. In the history of BVR air combat, such situations have rarely if ever actually come to light. With the proliferation of digital EW suites, LPI radars and stealth technology, BVR realm combat will become more and more difficult over extreme ranges. When your detection range on the bandit is less than 40nm, what are you going to shoot at with a missile that has 80nm+ range?

MICA is inferior in range to the C5+ models of the AMRAAM. This I already pointed out already in my previous post. The reason why is something not appreciated by very many. The MICA was designed specifically to fit onto the M2000. With the available space and weight restrictions, MBDA have done exceedingly well to get the kind of performance it puts out. The NG will get 30% additional absolute range and a 50% larger NEZ out of the exact same basic body, which is spectacular. But again you compare it to the AMRAAM when MICA is not designed to compete with that weapon at all.

The French philosophy of air to air combat is very different from that the USAF trains for. The M2000 + MICA combination was made to fit into that philosophy so to compare it to a system which is designed for a different scenario is disingenuous.

 

[Shadow]

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[Wisemarko]

BVR range is important when you are able to successfully de-conflict and conduct a IFF scan without interference and get a confirmed firing solution on incoming bandits. In the history of BVR air combat, such situations have rarely if ever actually come to light. With the proliferation of digital EW suites, LPI radars and stealth technology, BVR realm combat will become more and more difficult over extreme ranges. When your detection range on the bandit is less than 40nm, what are you going to shoot at with a missile that has 80nm+ range?

MICA is inferior in range to the C5+ models of the AMRAAM. This I already pointed out already in my previous post. The reason why is something not appreciated by very many. The MICA was designed specifically to fit onto the M2000. With the available space and weight restrictions, MBDA have done exceedingly well to get the kind of performance it puts out. The NG will get 30% additional absolute range and a 50% larger NEZ out of the exact same basic body, which is spectacular. But again you compare it to the AMRAAM when MICA is not designed to compete with that weapon at all.

The French philosophy of air to air combat is very different from that the USAF trains for. The M2000 + MICA combination was made to fit into that philosophy so to compare it to a system which is designed for a different scenario is disingenuous.

Since when AESA AWACS and ELINT/ESM detection range became less than 40nm? Current F-16 AN/APX-125(V) and 126 IFF have over 100nm range.
https://www.baesystems.com/en/download-en/20180518191818/1434555677018.pdf

 

[uoftotaku]

Since when AESA AWACS and ELINT/ESM detection range became less than 40nm? Current F-16 AN/APX-125(V) and 126 IFF have over 100nm range.
https://www.baesystems.com/en/download-en/20180518191818/1434555677018.pdf

We are talking of future scenarios here. Even today, your vaunted F-35 is being sold on the basis of its radar stealth and EW suite. A Gripen has an EW suite that already makes it near impossible to lock on to at BVR ranges (this has been confirmed in DACT exercises). Heck even our 40+ year old Bisons have enough jamming power onboard to dodge Amraams beyond 20nm

In an environment where radar stealth, jamming and EW make conventional means of detection at long range irrelevant, you fall back on means such as long range IRST or other passive detection sensors. This brings down your detection to what? If the bandit is coming in cold, radar switched off, no active systems (this is a tactic being practiced by the USAF itself to exploit a tag team of F-15's and F-22's) your detection range without an active IRST scan is almost WVR. So again, I ask, where are you going to use your 80nm+ range missiles? Against AWACS, Tankers, ISTAR assets etc yes...against opposing fighters? Fat chance!