India�s dilemma: U.S. or Russian weapons

[anoop_mig25]

confusion?

i think we should go 4 russian platforms + integrate electronics from isreal+france as we did in suk30mki. plus we should inceresaes our parternship from iseral and french more :twizt:. we should have goods form usa but nothening major from them because we know it will be annoyance from us + god never knows when they will put sanctions if we dont follow their directives:113:

 

[AJSINGH]

weapons should be bought from USA no doubt but only to some extent , like transport aircraft , heavy life aircraft , where fire power comes into picture better stay with someone who is reliable aka russia , billions of dollor worth of weapons have been bought by India ,and they have never denied us their latest technology and comes with no strings attached unlike yankee weapons

so according to me , weapons should be bought so that we keep yankees happy in international weapons market. on the other hand we should buy sophisticated weapons from russia . like the PAK FAGA , su 30mki etc , also joint venture like the Brahmos missile should be started

 

[roma]

India has imported 70 percent of its weapons in the last 50 years, the bulk from Russia and the remainder from Britain, France and Israel. Only a few items – including weapons locating radar and a navy landing ship – have been U.S.-made.

the experience with the americans is quite clear: they have all sorts of restrictions and later problems with spares and sign this and that and sign npt before we give you the keys to the system even after you have paid 80%

dont go to the dentist for eye problems and dont do to the optometrist for problems with teeth ? usa is great for sending our kids to university and to do prosgraduate reseach on graduate assitantships i.e academic matters
the russians on the other hand are the proven joint venture for manufacture of aircraft under licence , so dont swich the thoroughbred russian horse for the american mule and likewise for education dont confuse it the other way, our major pact there is with the americans not the russians - each has their strong points it is up to us to differentiate and connect correctly

 

[Sabir]

weapons should be bought from USA no doubt but only to some extent , like transport aircraft , heavy life aircraft , where fire power comes into picture better stay with someone who is reliable aka russia , billions of dollor worth of weapons have been bought by India ,and they have never denied us their latest technology and comes with no strings attached unlike yankee weapons

so according to me , weapons should be bought so that we keep yankees happy in international weapons market. on the other hand we should buy sophisticated weapons from russia . like the PAK FAGA , su 30mki etc , also joint venture like the Brahmos missile should be started

YES ! Atleast in some occasions (like Su-30 MKI, leased Advanced Akula II etc) they have allowed us to have even better than their own staffs

 

[Dark Sorrow]

The post has been deleted.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

I say why depend on some other country. Develop and manufacture your own weapons like China. It will also save your foriegn exchange. At beginning your weapons won't be as good as western countries by at some time you need to start.

 

[Sumku]

First of all India has bought Rusdian weapons for the last 50 years out of compulsion not by choice.

Not 100% true. We always had option to get things from UK,France and Germany.

We were at the wrong end of US friendship.

It's all different now. No one is denying us anything.

No one is denying anything, thats true however the meaning of friendship does not start and end with sale of high end weapons platform. What has US done to help India in others areas like infra development etc. 123 was signed with much fanfare and the whole idea was that India would get latest in civilian nuclear tech which is not happening now

Second, Russian weapons used to be cheap. Not anymore. They are extracting the price.

1) PAK-FA when it takes to skies would be as potent as f-35 BUT not as pricey.
2) Another point with US weapons is that is they require very intrusive end user monitoring compliance which at times might not be possible. Take the case of Mig-21. India is fast upgrading these with help of non-Russian vendors like Israel and France etc. Not possible with US systems. End User Compliance means that all things have to be of US origins.
Take another case of SU-30 MKI, where on India demands, Avionics and other systems are of India, French and Israeli origins. Would US allow such arrangement on SH or F-16? Dont think so.
3) India cannot expect to lay its hands on f-35, not in another 2 decades. but we would have PAK-FA as soon as its out.
4) Infra cost required to keep US weapons worthy is proportionally more than that of Russian systems

Cost over runs, delayed deliveries have only compounded matters. They have also acted up on tech transfers (engine fir MKI, and T90). Gorshkov is the mother of all screw ups. If we look at current cooperation, it's only where there is Indian participation in development from the beginning is what we are interested in eg PakFa. Even the ships that are being built there are because India doesn't have enough capacity to build.

I guess Russia has agreed for complete tech transfer for T90 and MKI.
However when it comes to cost and time overrun, are you that naive to think that only Russia suffers from this, since last I heard, Israel had faltered on Phalcons, UK on Hawk and US as well.

Yes, Gorshkov is a pain area but then in this case, I am ready to give Russian's a little more money since even after that the ship would still be cheaper than any replacement and its my thinking that responsibility for some portion of this mess rests on India as well

Third, quality of Russian weapons have been suspect.

Really.Tell me of soo many t-90's supplied by Russia to India what% was defective and whats the similar defect% for US made weapons and for Indian made weapons platform and for german made weapons and for UK made weapons etc.
Now tell me that same for Su-30's and R-77[which u quoted above].
Tell me whats the defect% in Su-30 and compare the same with Hawk. Which is lower and which is higher.

You have this kind of qualitative data at hand, share it with us or Lets not make sweeping statements without qualitative data at hand. All Reports that you read in media is NOT Correct, a good majority is paid to write by vested parties.

Russia will have to seriously introspect on how it is doing business with India. Otherwise we will see a shift in indias purchase pattern. Already Israel is breathing down on it.

And Israel is no where near challenging Russia in terms of being India's reliable weapons systems provider. Its fast gaining ground but it wont be there....reason its weapons systems heavily use US made components and are subject to same kind of end user certification

 

[AJSINGH]

( hypothetical situation )if you ask lockheed martin or boeing to develop a " paper clip " , they will come up with paper clip no doubt but will also install LED on it , make the clip from titanium metal , put a pressure sensor on it . whereas Russia on the other hand makes a product for its purpose no extra frills on it, no wonder their space craft " souyz " is the work horse for the ISS . Russia relatively does research and development in very less cost than the yankees on top of the russian scientist have been pain 1/10th the price of american scientist


America develops aircraft around the pilot whereas russia desgins a aircraft , digs a hole and put a seat in it . works for russia pretty well ,history speaks for itself about russian weapons , cheap ,cost effective and reliable

 

[longriver]

I think both of these two countries supply the best and most advanced in the world. According to the statistics, US is the best benefiter in world weapon market.

Why a dilemma. Just buy what the army need.

 

[StealthSniper]

The Americans have the technology and the reliability in their weapon systems. I don't think anyone is questioning that. But if you think about it, the equipment we procured from Russia (tanks, submarines, planes) they all have worked pretty good if you ask me for a couple decades. So why are people saying that they are cheap and not quality equipment. For example the MIG 21 should be extinct right now and we are still using it (and you know Indian pilots train hard on their equipment). The reason they are failing can be blamed on the plane but it's also because it's past it's service lifetime. The ships we got from Russia as far as I know haven't really had any big problems and the submarines also for the most part have worked well.

Also recently I agree the Russians have tried some political stunts with us but at the end of the day we have to see what we got from Russia and not about one deal that went bad. The Americans even if they have better weapons won't ever help us in the political landscape or ever give us big ticket items (access to aircraft carrier, or nuke sub). And even if we do get their systems we will be hancuffed using it.

At the end of the day I think we should get weapons from no country and make them in house. And if you look at both countries America is pulling us away from indigenisation and Russia is pulling us closer. Who do you think is the enemy now?

 

[Vladimir79]

And Israel is no where near challenging Russia in terms of being India's reliable weapons systems provider. Its fast gaining ground but it wont be there....reason its weapons systems heavily use US made components and are subject to same kind of end user certification

I see so many people talking about Israel being reliable weapons supplier... well lets not forget who holds their leash... U.S.A.

 

[Vladimir79]

I'll tell you what I think. Russia and India both face major technology hurdles trying to keep up expensive R&D with rich Western countries. Russia and India have among the best scientific and engineering minds in the world. Collaboration on projects is the way to go for both our countries and we are seeing it successful today. PAK FA, Brahmos, MTA transport, space and hopefully many more projects. Russia and India should fuse our two defence industries and become inseperable leaders in military and space technology as 50:50 partners in all projects of mutual interest.

 

[Sumku]

I see so many people talking about Israel being reliable weapons supplier... well lets not forget who holds their leash... U.S.A.

Exactly and thats the reason why I said that Israel is no where near to Russia.
There is not a single Weapons platform that Israel has on offer that is independent of White House Pressure.

 

[Vladimir79]

Exactly and thats the reason why I said that Israel is no where near to Russia.
There is not a single Weapons platform that Israel has on offer that is independent of White House Pressure.

Most of their advanced items have US parts or patented techonology in them. Israel is just an extension of the US defence complex. I hope India doesn't forget that when they buy from them.

 

[ppgj]

Most of their advanced items have US parts or patented techonology in them. Israel is just an extension of the US defence complex. I hope India doesn't forget that when they buy from them.

partly agree. it is also true that the israelis have built some of the systems on their own which even US uses on its platforms. israel has in the recent past, post obama, has its own reservations about US. more than anything, they have been great help in crunch times to india. also they can't afford to lose indian market. while russia will remain on top they follow close. infact a good idea should be india, israel and russia collaborating on projects.

 

[Vladimir79]

partly agree. it is also true that the israelis have built some of the systems on their own which even US uses on its platforms. israel has in the recent past, post obama, has its own reservations about US. more than anything, they have been great help in crunch times to india. also they can't afford to lose indian market. while russia will remain on top they follow close. infact a good idea should be india, israel and russia collaborating on projects.

Israel and Russia already collaborate on Su-30MKI and PHALCON AWACs. It is not a problem for us but it is just one more competitor we would not have to deal with if the US didn't prop them up.

 

[ppgj]

It is not a problem for us but it is just one more competitor we would not have to deal with if the US didn't prop them up.

i think, in view of US overtures to iran and israel itself trying to block s-300 sales to iran, they would be wise in their politics with russia and add to that their own reservations about US. though i do agree with your point, i think that would answered in due time. only my guess.

 

[AJSINGH]

I'll tell you what I think. Russia and India both face major technology hurdles trying to keep up expensive R&D with rich Western countries. Russia and India have among the best scientific and engineering minds in the world. Collaboration on projects is the way to go for both our countries and we are seeing it successful today. PAK FA, Brahmos, MTA transport, space and hopefully many more projects. Russia and India should fuse our two defence industries and become inseperable leaders in military and space technology as 50:50 partners in all projects of mutual interest.

good point there , that is what i should happen , and it is happening , russia needs help in elctronics and micro level chip technology , which India has , on the other hand India needs help in airframe desgin and engine

 

[Rajan]

India should go for mainly Indian weapons with support from Russia, Israel and France. We can get some Americans also but should be very little and most importantly it should not strategic.