India, With or Without British Empire??

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Iamanidiot

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Ideology rises if people support. It fails, if people oppose. Simple !!

Why to blame anyone, if people supported ?? There must be some valid reason.
Correct thats why we lost Afghanistan,Pakistan and Bangladesh and people converted to Islam and are converting to Christianity
People believed in Brahmanic ideology, So it was successful.
Well, if it divided the society. Then i don't think Hinduism could have survived after 1,000 years of unlimited invasions. It's impossible.
Hinduism survived thanks to the arival of the Brits
90%-95% SC, ST are still Hindus - 22% population of India. So, They didn't converted in large no. It's fact.
They are only Hindu on paper
Thanks to Bhakti movement in 15th century - Revival of Hinduism started.
Which is a grassroot Shudra movement

Brahmanic ideology made sure, 1 Billion Hindus will see the light of the day in 2011. Buddhism failed because people rejected for some valid reason. It was successful in other Asian countries because their was vaccum with no religion.
Buddhism was made to fail by the Brahmins by intrigues and plots

Ironically you have taken a contradictory stance regarding Brahminism from the previus posts .shows the chameleon you are
 

pankaj nema

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If this THREAD is about The whether British rule was GOOD OR BAD for India

Then Let us not be COY and frankly discuss which GROUP of Indians BENEFITTED out of British rule
and which group suffered and WHY
 

Galaxy

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All Muslim Invaders were bastards. Akbar is debatable.

I hate British also but not in same way compare with Islamic invaders.

They came to expand Islam. Converted people, Killed, Destroyed thousands of religious Temples Libraries, Scriptures.

Brahmanism may be wrong in casteism but at least Dharmic religion was protected due to their religious reform.

Too much of discrimination is BS propaganda by Jholawalas, West and Non-Hindus/Atheist group. They just want to justify the conversion and Non-believer ideology.

90% Dalits/Tribals/Brahmins didn't converted which proves that discrimination was not the main reason.
 

Iamanidiot

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Go by the flavour of the times.

It is better to be a Constitution Brahmin these days so that all the quotas, perks and reservation come your way.
They need positive discrimination
People find it a badge to carry to be an SC/ST/OBC/Muslim because it makes life easier to circumvent meritocracy.
Should I be ashamed that Iam a low born by birth rather than being a Brahmin which is a badge of honour
I am sure you have read the SC judgement that a child born of a mixed marriage with the mother as a SC, is entitled to have his mother;s caste.
Eminently sensible judgement such kids are social outcastes by his upper caste relatives
It shows how the times change!

Judge events by the socio economic environment of the times!
Ofcourse it hurts loosing the monopoly on education is bad
 

Ray

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Yes I have. Have you?

The spread of Islam was very slow and gradual, contrary to popular perception. Although the Arabs did conquer large swathes of territory under the first caliphs they did not forcibly convert the populations out of fear of mass rebellion. For the most part the administration of the Rashidun Caliphate and the subsequent caliphates was essentially a military administration which did not involve itself in the daily life of their subjects. They exercised considerable tolerance and this was a major factor in their rapid expansion.

In almost all territories that the Arabs conquered the spread of Islam followed a distinct pattern. First, there was the military conquest, where a small group of Arabs assume the role of the ruling military nobility. Then, there was the conversion of the upper classes to Islam, which was mostly voluntary because it was advantageous for the local upper classes to ally themselves with the ruling Muslims. This was followed by the spread of the Arabic language to all classes of the population (starting again with the upper), and only then with the spread of Islam to the majority of the population.

If we take the example of Egypt, the initial Arab conquest took place in the 7th century and Egypt was subsequently ruled by a nobility of around 70,000 Arabs. Gradually, the Egyptian upper classes converted to Islam and Arabic replaced Greek as the language of the elite. However, it was not until the 14th century that a majority of Egyptians were Muslims who spoke Arabic as a first language. The spread of Islam in India followed these same general steps, although the conquests were made by Turks who spoke Persian/Urdu rather than Arabs, but since India is a far larger and diverse country than Egypt, Syria, and the others, and because India was never fully conquered by any Muslim power, Islam did not spread to the same extent that it did in West Asia and North Africa.


The rest of your post concerning circumcision, Bannerjee, and Rip Van Winkle is unfortunately beyond my comprehension.
Below is a timeline of the history of Islam.

c. 610 CE Muhammad receives first vision in a cave near Mecca.
c. 610-22 CE Muhammad preaches in Mecca.
622 CE Hijira - Muhammad and followers flee to Medina.
Islamic calendar (AH, Anno Hegirae) begins.
624 CE Muslims successfully attack Meccan caravans at Badr.
625 Muslims are defeated by Meccans at Uhud.
630 Muslims capture Mecca. Ka'ba is cleansed, pilgrimage rites are Islamicized, tribes of Arabia vow allegiance to Muhammad
632 Death of Muhammad. Abu Bakr chosen as caliph.
632-33 Wars of ridda (apostasy) restore allegiance to Islam
633 Muslim conquests (Futuhat) begin.
633-42 Muslim armies take the Fertile Crescent (Egypt, Syria, Palestine, Mesopotamia), North African coast, parts of Persian and Byzantine Empires
c. 650 Caliph Uthman has the Qur'an written down.
656 Uthman is murdered; Ali becomes fourth caliph.
657 Battle of Siffin. Mu'awiya, governor of Syria, claims the caliphate.
659 Arbitration at Adruh is opposed by Ali's supporters.
661 Ali is murdered; Mu'awiya becomes caliph. Beginning of Umayyad Caliphate (661-750).
680 Death of Husayn marks beginning of the Shi'at Ali ("party of Ali") or Shi'a sect.
685-705 Reign of Abd al-Malik. Centralization of administration - Arabic becomes official written language (instead of Greek and Persian) and Arab coinage is established.
late 600s Ruling classes in East and West Africa convert to Islam.
700-800s Groups of ascetics and mystics begin to form
710 Arab armies enter Spain from North Africa.
732 Muslim empire reaches its furthes extent. Battle of Tours prevents further advance northwards.
747 Revolt defeats the Umayyads.
750 Abu l'Abbas becomes caliph in Iraq
754 Baghdad (Madinat al-Salam, "city of peace") becomes the new capital of the Abbasid empire.
755 Abd ar-Rahman founds an Umayyad Dynasty in Cordoba, Spain.
765 Division within Shi'ites - majority are the modern Imamiyya (Twelvers) who co-exist with Abbasid caliphs; minority are more extreme Isma'iliyaa (Seveners).
786-809 Reign of Harun ar-Rashid, best known through the stories of The Thousand and One Nights.
800s Written collections of Hadith (sayings of the Prophet) are compiled. Sicily comes under Muslim rule.
813-33 Reign of Ma'mun. Theological controversy over whether the Qur'an is created or uncreated and eternal. Center for translation of texts from Greek to Arabic founded in Baghdad.
869-883 Uprisings of black slaves (Zanj) are eventually defeated.
908 First Fatimid caliph in Tunisia.
928 Umayyad Abd ar-Rahman III declares himself caliph in Cordoba.
940 Muhammad al-Mahdi, the twelfth imam, disappears. Twelvers still await the future return of the "Hidden Imam."
945 The Buyids (Persian) invade Baghdad and take power from caliph.
969 Fatimids gain power in Egypt and attack Palestine, Syria, and Arabia. Cairo (Al-Qahira, "the victorious city") is founded.
980-1037 Life of Avicenna, Iranian physician and Aristotelian philosopher.
996-1021 Reign of Fatimid al-Hakim. Hamza ibn Ali forms basis of esoteric Druze religion.
late 900s West Africa begins to convert to Islam
1030 Umayyad caliphate in Cordoba defeated by the Christian Reconquista.
1055 Seljuk Turks take Baghdad; Abbasids now only nominal rulers.
1000s Reconquista takes more of Spain, Sicily falls to the Normans, Crusader kingdoms are briefly established in Palestine and Syria.
1071 Seljuk Turks defeat Byzantines at Battle of Manzikert.
1090 Hasan-i Sabbah takes Alamut in the Persian mountains, the Assassin sect forms around him.
1099 Christian Crusaders take Jerusalem.
1100-1200s Sufi orders (turuq) are founded.
1126-98 Life of Averroës, Muslim philosopher from Cordoba who sought to integrate Islam with Greek thought.
1171 Fatimid power ends in Egypt with the conquests of Saladin.
1174 Saladin declares himself sultan of Egypt and Syria.
1193 Death of Saladin; most of Crusader states have returned to Islam.
1200s Assassins wipes out by the Mongols. Indian rulers in Delhi take title of Sultan. Spanish mystic Muhyi al-Din ibn al-Arabi (1165-1240) flourishes.
1221 Genghis Khan and the Mongols enter Persia.
1241 Mongols take the Punjab.
1258 Mongols capture Baghdad; city is sacked and caliph is killed. End of Abbasid caliphate.
1281-1324 Reign of Uthman (Osman), who founds the Ottoman Empire. Muslim merchants and missionary Sufis settle in SE Asia.
mid-1300s Ottomans capture Bursa and Iznik and move into Europe.
1366 Capital of Ottoman Empire moved from Bursa to Adrianople.
late 1300s Ottomans take control of the Balkans.
1400s Islam reaches the Philippines.
1453 Mehmet Fatih (rules 1451-81) conquers Constantinople. The two halves of the Ottoman Empire are united and the sultan becomes Byzantine emperor.
1492 Castile and Aragon capture Granada. All Muslims (and Jews) expelled from Spain.
1501 Isma'il (1487-1524) claims to be the Hidden Imam and is proclaimed Shah (king) of Persia. Twelver Shi'ism becomes official religion of Persia.
1516 Ottomans conquer Syria and Egypt.
1517 Ottomans control Mecca and Medina.
1520-66 Reign of Suleyman the Magnificent; Ottoman Empire reaches its zenith. Hungary and coastlands of Algeria and Tunisia come under Ottoman rule.
1526 Babur (Mongolian) seizes the Delhi sultanate and takes control of northern India.
1556 Akbar founds the Mughal dynasty in northern India.
1600-1700s Venetians, Habsburgs, and Russians divide European Ottoman lands between them.
1625 Java comes under rule of Muslim kingdom of Mataram.
1699 Treaty of Karlowitz confirms first substantial losses of Ottoman Empire in Europe.
1700s Muhammad Abd al-Wahhab rejects Sufism and all innovation (bid'a). Founds what becomes the Saudi Arabian kingdom. Hindus regain power from Mughals in northern India.
1738 Mughal empire invaded by the Afghans.
1779 Afghans ousted by Qajar dynasty, which rules Persia until 1925.
1798 Napoleon's expedition to Egypt.
1805 Muhammad Ali becomes governor of Egypt, which becomes independent of the Ottomans, gains control of western Arabia and extends into the Sudan.
1807-76 Tanzimat period. Ottoman Empire undergoes extensive program of modernization in government, law, and medicine.
1830 Greece regains independence from Ottomans.
1850s Non-Muslim Ottoman citizens granted equality with Muslims.
1858 Last Mughal in India is deposed and India comes under British rule.
1876-1908 Reign of Abd al-Hamid II; autocratic and religiously conservative period in Ottoman rule.
1878 Congress of Berlin recognizes independence of Balkan states previously under Muslim rule.
1882-1952 Egypt occupied by the British.
1908-18 Last decade of Ottoman rule. Rise of nationalistic "Young Turks." More liberal policies develop.
1912 Founding of Islamic Union (Sareket Islam), a modernizing movement in SE Asia.
1918 Fall of Ottoman Empire. League of Nations grants Britain mandatory status over Palestine and Iraq, and France over Lebanon and Syria.
1923 Republic of Turkey established. Mustafa Kemal (Ataturk) is first president.
1927 Tablighi Jamaat reform movement founded in India.
1928 Ikhwan al-Muslimun (Muslim Brothers) founded in Egypt.
1941 Jamaat-i Islami reform movement founded in Lahore, India.
1945 Indonesia becomes independent republic.
1945-60s Islam spreads to the West with mass migrations from Asia, Africa, and India.
1947 Pakistan founded as an Islamic nation. Islam becomes a minority religion in India.
1957 Independent Malayan state established with Islam as the official religion but guaranteed tolerance.
1960s Familes from SE Asia and North Africa emigrate to Europe and the Americas.
1979 Shah of Iran is overthrown by Ayatullah Ruhullah Khumayni, who establishes strict fundamentalist rule of Shi'a principles.
late 1990s Taliban come to power in Afghanistan.
2001 Muslim extremists attack the United States.
2003 Saddam Hussein ousted by Western forces.

A very slow rise, what?

From 610 to today, the second largest religion and growing!!

Real steady and slow growth.

Of course, you will not understand the remainder because it is convenient not to!
 

Ray

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Comparing the Rise of Islam to the Rise of Christianity
It is tempting to compare the astounding spread of Christianity with that of Islam. Both faiths began as the teachings of a single man and both witnessed exponential, almost miraculous growth in just a few centuries. However the method by which the two faiths spread could not have been more different. For the first three centuries AD, Christianity had spread by peaceful conversion. Then once it became adopted as the official religion of the Roman Empire in the 4th Century AD, Christians had sufficient power to dominate, intimidate, and supress other religions. The followers of Islam on the other hand used military force from the very beginning of their history, even during the life of Muhammad himself. Towns were conquered, and Islam was established as the dominant religion whether the inhabitants liked it or not. Christians and Jews were treated a little fairer than followers of other religions as they were considered Abrahamic Faiths and would be tolerated as long as they paid the Jizya, a special tax that Jews and Christians had to pay the Islamic state in order to practice their religion.

The Rise of Islam
 

Galaxy

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Correct thats why we lost Afghanistan,Pakistan and Bangladesh and people converted to Islam and are converting to Christianity
People believed in Brahmanic ideology, So it was successful.
Yes, Brahmanism was successful because 80% Indians didn't converted into Islam during 800 years of rule. 20% in 800 years that also no. grew by each passing decade due to TFR ? Islam were successful in many ways because there was no unity on NW & Eastern front. That's it. Nothing to do with Brahmin. No point saying same thing again and again, because that won't change the facts.

Hinduism survived thanks to the arival of the Brits
:rofl:

Mughals/islamic Invaders were defeated before arrival of British. Marathas & Sikhs, Jats, Rajputs defeated them. It was Sikh-Anglo and Marath-Anglo war. They came for wealth and nothing to with religion.

They are only Hindu on paper
They are on earth. I have not heard such thing from any Dalit itself. :rolleyes:

Which is a grassroot Shudra movement
Hehehhe..... How come they will start Bhakti reform when they were discriminated with upper cast Hindu ? Ignorant at it's best. It was Brahmanic plan.


Buddhism was made to fail by the Brahmins by intrigues and plots

Ironically you have taken a contradictory stance regarding Brahminism from the previus posts .shows the chameleon you are
Good that Buddhism failed otherwise 98% Indians would be following Islam Today.

You are idiot as per your UserID who don't post any evidence, Link, reason. Just post your mental fart with no logic, nothing. Just BS propaganda like Jholawalas. Are you 1 of them ?? You are chameleon who changed the point 10 times in last 10 post. Dalit/Tribal converted....ALL. :rofl:
 
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civfanatic

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Below is a timeline of the history of Islam.

c. 610 CE Muhammad receives first vision in a cave near Mecca.
c. 610-22 CE Muhammad preaches in Mecca.
622 CE Hijira - Muhammad and followers flee to Medina.
Islamic calendar (AH, Anno Hegirae) begins.
624 CE Muslims successfully attack Meccan caravans at Badr.
625 Muslims are defeated by Meccans at Uhud.
630 Muslims capture Mecca. Ka'ba is cleansed, pilgrimage rites are Islamicized, tribes of Arabia vow allegiance to Muhammad
632 Death of Muhammad. Abu Bakr chosen as caliph.
632-33 Wars of ridda (apostasy) restore allegiance to Islam
633 Muslim conquests (Futuhat) begin.
633-42 Muslim armies take the Fertile Crescent (Egypt, Syria, Palestine, Mesopotamia), North African coast, parts of Persian and Byzantine Empires
c. 650 Caliph Uthman has the Qur'an written down.
656 Uthman is murdered; Ali becomes fourth caliph.
657 Battle of Siffin. Mu'awiya, governor of Syria, claims the caliphate.
659 Arbitration at Adruh is opposed by Ali's supporters.
661 Ali is murdered; Mu'awiya becomes caliph. Beginning of Umayyad Caliphate (661-750).
680 Death of Husayn marks beginning of the Shi'at Ali ("party of Ali") or Shi'a sect.
685-705 Reign of Abd al-Malik. Centralization of administration - Arabic becomes official written language (instead of Greek and Persian) and Arab coinage is established.
late 600s Ruling classes in East and West Africa convert to Islam.
700-800s Groups of ascetics and mystics begin to form
710 Arab armies enter Spain from North Africa.
732 Muslim empire reaches its furthes extent. Battle of Tours prevents further advance northwards.
747 Revolt defeats the Umayyads.
750 Abu l'Abbas becomes caliph in Iraq
754 Baghdad (Madinat al-Salam, "city of peace") becomes the new capital of the Abbasid empire.
755 Abd ar-Rahman founds an Umayyad Dynasty in Cordoba, Spain.
765 Division within Shi'ites - majority are the modern Imamiyya (Twelvers) who co-exist with Abbasid caliphs; minority are more extreme Isma'iliyaa (Seveners).
786-809 Reign of Harun ar-Rashid, best known through the stories of The Thousand and One Nights.
800s Written collections of Hadith (sayings of the Prophet) are compiled. Sicily comes under Muslim rule.
813-33 Reign of Ma'mun. Theological controversy over whether the Qur'an is created or uncreated and eternal. Center for translation of texts from Greek to Arabic founded in Baghdad.
869-883 Uprisings of black slaves (Zanj) are eventually defeated.
908 First Fatimid caliph in Tunisia.
928 Umayyad Abd ar-Rahman III declares himself caliph in Cordoba.
940 Muhammad al-Mahdi, the twelfth imam, disappears. Twelvers still await the future return of the "Hidden Imam."
945 The Buyids (Persian) invade Baghdad and take power from caliph.
969 Fatimids gain power in Egypt and attack Palestine, Syria, and Arabia. Cairo (Al-Qahira, "the victorious city") is founded.
980-1037 Life of Avicenna, Iranian physician and Aristotelian philosopher.
996-1021 Reign of Fatimid al-Hakim. Hamza ibn Ali forms basis of esoteric Druze religion.
late 900s West Africa begins to convert to Islam
1030 Umayyad caliphate in Cordoba defeated by the Christian Reconquista.
1055 Seljuk Turks take Baghdad; Abbasids now only nominal rulers.
1000s Reconquista takes more of Spain, Sicily falls to the Normans, Crusader kingdoms are briefly established in Palestine and Syria.
1071 Seljuk Turks defeat Byzantines at Battle of Manzikert.
1090 Hasan-i Sabbah takes Alamut in the Persian mountains, the Assassin sect forms around him.
1099 Christian Crusaders take Jerusalem.
1100-1200s Sufi orders (turuq) are founded.
1126-98 Life of Averroës, Muslim philosopher from Cordoba who sought to integrate Islam with Greek thought.
1171 Fatimid power ends in Egypt with the conquests of Saladin.
1174 Saladin declares himself sultan of Egypt and Syria.
1193 Death of Saladin; most of Crusader states have returned to Islam.
1200s Assassins wipes out by the Mongols. Indian rulers in Delhi take title of Sultan. Spanish mystic Muhyi al-Din ibn al-Arabi (1165-1240) flourishes.
1221 Genghis Khan and the Mongols enter Persia.
1241 Mongols take the Punjab.
1258 Mongols capture Baghdad; city is sacked and caliph is killed. End of Abbasid caliphate.
1281-1324 Reign of Uthman (Osman), who founds the Ottoman Empire. Muslim merchants and missionary Sufis settle in SE Asia.
mid-1300s Ottomans capture Bursa and Iznik and move into Europe.
1366 Capital of Ottoman Empire moved from Bursa to Adrianople.
late 1300s Ottomans take control of the Balkans.
1400s Islam reaches the Philippines.
1453 Mehmet Fatih (rules 1451-81) conquers Constantinople. The two halves of the Ottoman Empire are united and the sultan becomes Byzantine emperor.
1492 Castile and Aragon capture Granada. All Muslims (and Jews) expelled from Spain.
1501 Isma'il (1487-1524) claims to be the Hidden Imam and is proclaimed Shah (king) of Persia. Twelver Shi'ism becomes official religion of Persia.
1516 Ottomans conquer Syria and Egypt.
1517 Ottomans control Mecca and Medina.
1520-66 Reign of Suleyman the Magnificent; Ottoman Empire reaches its zenith. Hungary and coastlands of Algeria and Tunisia come under Ottoman rule.
1526 Babur (Mongolian) seizes the Delhi sultanate and takes control of northern India.
1556 Akbar founds the Mughal dynasty in northern India.
1600-1700s Venetians, Habsburgs, and Russians divide European Ottoman lands between them.
1625 Java comes under rule of Muslim kingdom of Mataram.
1699 Treaty of Karlowitz confirms first substantial losses of Ottoman Empire in Europe.
1700s Muhammad Abd al-Wahhab rejects Sufism and all innovation (bid'a). Founds what becomes the Saudi Arabian kingdom. Hindus regain power from Mughals in northern India.
1738 Mughal empire invaded by the Afghans.
1779 Afghans ousted by Qajar dynasty, which rules Persia until 1925.
1798 Napoleon's expedition to Egypt.
1805 Muhammad Ali becomes governor of Egypt, which becomes independent of the Ottomans, gains control of western Arabia and extends into the Sudan.
1807-76 Tanzimat period. Ottoman Empire undergoes extensive program of modernization in government, law, and medicine.
1830 Greece regains independence from Ottomans.
1850s Non-Muslim Ottoman citizens granted equality with Muslims.
1858 Last Mughal in India is deposed and India comes under British rule.
1876-1908 Reign of Abd al-Hamid II; autocratic and religiously conservative period in Ottoman rule.
1878 Congress of Berlin recognizes independence of Balkan states previously under Muslim rule.
1882-1952 Egypt occupied by the British.
1908-18 Last decade of Ottoman rule. Rise of nationalistic "Young Turks." More liberal policies develop.
1912 Founding of Islamic Union (Sareket Islam), a modernizing movement in SE Asia.
1918 Fall of Ottoman Empire. League of Nations grants Britain mandatory status over Palestine and Iraq, and France over Lebanon and Syria.
1923 Republic of Turkey established. Mustafa Kemal (Ataturk) is first president.
1927 Tablighi Jamaat reform movement founded in India.
1928 Ikhwan al-Muslimun (Muslim Brothers) founded in Egypt.
1941 Jamaat-i Islami reform movement founded in Lahore, India.
1945 Indonesia becomes independent republic.
1945-60s Islam spreads to the West with mass migrations from Asia, Africa, and India.
1947 Pakistan founded as an Islamic nation. Islam becomes a minority religion in India.
1957 Independent Malayan state established with Islam as the official religion but guaranteed tolerance.
1960s Familes from SE Asia and North Africa emigrate to Europe and the Americas.
1979 Shah of Iran is overthrown by Ayatullah Ruhullah Khumayni, who establishes strict fundamentalist rule of Shi'a principles.
late 1990s Taliban come to power in Afghanistan.
2001 Muslim extremists attack the United States.
2003 Saddam Hussein ousted by Western forces.

A very slow rise, what?

From 610 to today, the second largest religion and growing!!

Real steady and slow growth.

Of course, you will not understand the remainder because it is convenient not to!
You obviously did not understand anything I wrote and just copy-pasted a timeline which has no bearing with what I said.

Sorry I overestimated you. I realise now that it was a mistake to step into this thread.
 

Ray

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Should I be ashamed that Iam a low born by birth rather than being a Brahmin which is a badge of honour
No, many others are flaunting status that gives them the current badge of honour.

Imagine Jats, who are the richest amongst communities are OBCs!!

Sheila puts Delhi Jats on OBC list

NEW DELHI, OCT 22: Just a day after the Atal Behari Vajpayee government decided to include the Jat community in Rajasthan in the list of Other Backward Classes (OBCs), Delhi Chief Minister Sheila Dikshit rushed to do the same in the Capital.

The recommendations of the Other Backward Classes Commission were accepted in the Cabinet meeting chaired by the Chief Minister today. The Cabinet decision to include Jats in the Capital's list for OBCs is being referred to the Centre for approval as required.

With this, Delhi becomes ``the first state'' in the country to give the benefit of reservation to the Jat community, stated a Government press release. The Commission of the Government of National Capital Territory of Delhi had submitted its report to the Delhi Government, based on a survey carried out during the year 1997-98 in the region. According to the press release, the Commission found justification for this inclusion.

Sheila puts Delhi Jats on OBC list
 

pankaj nema

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Let us be clear about the timeline and sequence of events during British rule AND
which had different consequences for Hindus and Muslims

What is the HARM or SHAME in openly saying that Hindus benefitted out of British rule
and Muslims suffered because of it

Hindus were doubly benefitted The spread of education led to social reforms AND Industrialisation both

The fact is that by 1947 Muslims became socially economically and educationally far behind

SO they OPTED for Partition

And it is ONLY because of Partition that India is in MUCH MUCH better shape than Pakistan and Bangladesh
 
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Galaxy

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During Medieval period, Most of the richest/strong cast were Rajputs, Jats, Khatris, Gujjars, Jat, etc. - Mostly they converted into Islam for various reason.

90% SC, ST, Brahmin didn't converted Islam during 800 years of rule.

Today, SC + ST + Brahmin makes 30%+ population of the whole country.

If they would have converted, Undivided India would be Islamic state. Period!

There was not much discrimination for SC/ST nor Brahmins were opportunist.

Those who don't agree, Kindly contradict with facts why SC/ST didn't converted when Bengali OBC/upper cast and North Indian OBC/Rajput converted into large number ??

Don't post same thing about Brahmanism all the time, if you don't have iota of knowledge of it.
 
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Ray

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You obviously did not understand anything I wrote and just copy-pasted a timeline which has no bearing with what I said.

Sorry I overestimated you. I realise now that it was a mistake to step into this thread.
I wonder where is the cause to overestimate or underestimate anyone.

It is obvious that one does not have timelines in their memory unless they are a walking Encyclopaedia. I don't claim to be one.

However, to even cut and paste, one has to have some knowledge that such event or thing has happened or else I would not have been able to fish out that Jats are OBC, to give an example!

I had mentioned about Islam was via the Sword. You debunked that. I produced the relevant portions of the Quaran and the Hadith (obviously I knew about it or else I would have pulled a blank) to indicate that it was so. You did not comment on that since you cannot contest the Quaran or the Hadith.

I produced the Timeline not for any other reason, but to show you that your contention that it was a slow and steady rise of Islam is a bit too far fetched, given the timeline where Islam became the second largest religion of the world and growing.

So, I just laid the facts because I found the usual attempt to obfuscate the reality that is rife.

My point is Islam has grown quick. There have been battles for supremacy and leading to conversion. Why hide that? What's wrong in converting people of to the Faith, especially in the times when barbarian activities, war, pillage, taking slaves were normal.

Can one claim that Chenghiz Khan was basically as meek as a sheep or a mouse? Though one can sure sugarcoat to mislead and befool!

That is history that cannot be changed no matter how much one sugarcoats.

Those were the times and today we are different.

But then all are jockeying for space even those religions (except Parsis) who state that one has to be born into the religion and cannot be a convert!
 
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Iamanidiot

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Yes, Brahmanism was successful because 80% Indians didn't converted into Islam during 800 years of rule. 20% in 800 years that also no. grew by each passing decade due to TFR ? Islam were successful in many ways because there was no unity on NW & Eastern front. That's it. Nothing to do with Brahmin. No point saying same thing again and again, because that won't change the facts.
Let me burst your bubble first.India's current population right now is a billion out of that the Muslims and Christians constitute nearly 15-16% that is say 180 million.
Now Pakistan has a population of 200 million add to that Bangladeshi population of 200 million now do the math a total of 820 million Hindus vs 580 million Muslims and Christians .If you do the arithmetic the percentage is more than 20%

:rofl:
Mughals/islamic Invaders were defeated before arrival of British. Marathas & Sikhs, Jats, Rajputs defeated them. It was Sikh-Anglo and Marath-Anglo war. They came for wealth and nothing to with religion.
They were only repulsed they were not defeated and castrated which the British did

They are on earth. I have not heard such thing from any Dalit itself. :rolleyes:
they practice Christianity but register themselves as Sc's to avail reservation this is a very common phenomena

Hehehhe..... How come they will start Bhakti reform when they were discriminated with upper cast Hindu ? Ignorant at it's best. It was Brahmanic plan.
Bhakti movement was started in South by Alvar's and Nayanar's who were Shudras

Good that Buddhism failed otherwise 98% Indians would be following Islam Today.
Buddhism defended India from invasions more effectively than Brahamanical order
You are idiot as per your UserID who don't post any evidence, Link, reason. Just post your mental fart with no logic, nothing. Just BS propaganda like Jholawalas. Are you 1 of them ?? You are chameleon who changed the point 10 times in last 10 post. Dalit/Tribal converted....ALL. :rofl:[
I may be an idiot but not as pathetic and bigoted as you.I already stated the facts neither I rant
 

civfanatic

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I wonder where is the cause to overestimate or underestimate anyone.

It is obvious that one does not have timelines in their memory unless they are a walking Encyclopaedia. I don't claim to be one.

However, to even cut and paste, one has to have some knowledge that such event or thing has happened or else I would not have been able to fish out that Jats are OBC, to give an example!

I had mentioned about Islam was via the Sword. You debunked that. I produced the relevant portions of the Quaran and the Hadith (obviously I knew about it or else I would have pulled a blank) to indicate that it was so. You did not comment on that since you cannot contest the Quaran or the Hadith.

I produced the Timeline not for any other reason, but to show you that your contention that it was a slow and steady rise of Islam is a bit too far fetched, given the timeline where Islam became the second largest religion of the world and growing.

So, I just laid the facts because I found the usual attempt to obfuscate the reality that is rife.

My point is Islam has grown quick. There have been battles for supremacy and leading to conversion. Why hide that? What's wrong in converting people of to the Faith, especially in the times when barbarian activities, war, pillage, taking slaves were normal.

That is history that cannot be changed no matter how much one sugarcoats.
The Quran and hadiths are irrelevant to what I said.

Your timeline only shows the military conquests by Arabs, Turks, and various other peoples. It does not show the social and political dynamics of Islam in the various countries that were conquered. To understand that one must actually study history rather than copy-pasting a timeline. I stated in the earlier post that the conquests of the Arabs under the early caliphs were indeed swift. But this does not imply an equally rapid expansion of Islam, because the people who the Arabs conquered did not immediately convert to Islam as people apparently believe. I used the example of Egypt to illustrate what I am talking about.

Before replying to this post please try to understand what I am saying, otherwise you are just wasting my time as well as yours.
 

Galaxy

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Let me burst your bubble first.India's current population right now is a billion out of that the Muslims and Christians constitute nearly 15-16% that is say 180 million.
Now Pakistan has a population of 200 million add to that Bangladeshi population of 200 million now do the math a total of 820 million Hindus vs 580 million Muslims and Christians .If you do the arithmetic the percentage is more than 20%
:facepalm:

There is some reason why you used your userID is "I am idiot"

20% converted till 17th century. After that 20% become 33% due to High Total Ferlity Rate. Even Muslims were around 25% in 1940's in undivided India. Today 33% because Muslim T.F.R. is almost 50% higher than Hindus/Indian religion. I said this few post earlier. Read 1st before you post.

Even Muslims were around 9% in 1947 in India now, 14%. So 5% is due to High T.F.R.

I didn't expected that you will post this......hmm

Now i bursted your bubble nth time again. :wave:

There is difference between Converted % and population growth over period of time due to T.F.R.

They were only repulsed they were not defeated and castrated which the British did
What's your point ? They lost all Kingdom with very small influence in front of big empires of Marathas & Sikhs. They didn't had any important role to play. Do you even know the Maratha Kingdom size ? before arrivel of British.

they practice Christianity but register themselves as Sc's to avail reservation this is a very common phenomena
Where in your dream ?? as i not heard in India.

Another ignorant post. Reservation was given in 1947 and you were talking of discrimination By Brahmans. They could have converted into other religion in last 1,000 years. But they didn't.

Why not convert into Jainism, Buddhism as reservation for SC is there ? But last time, I checked population is merely 1% in which most of them were not converted one in last few centuries. How ironic ?

Bhakti movement was started in South by Alvar's and Nayanar's who were Shudras
Don't know about South nor i am posting much about that. if there is no discrimination in south then Why 5% Hindus converted into Christianity in last 65 years but merely 1% in whole North-West-East India combined ?


Buddhism defended India from invasions more effectively than Brahamanical order
Buddhism didn't defended India because they didn't got opportunity. They lost in starting in NW region. Thankfully, Buddhism didn't replaced Brahmanism otherwise not 20% but 98% population would be converted into Islam.

Before Buddhism in Tibet, people were aggressive warrior once they become Buddhist, Lost everything by Han. You are talking of fight against Babur and Auregnzeb ? Ignorance and nothing else.


I may be an idiot but not as pathetic and bigoted as you.I already stated the facts neither I rant
Thanks for clarification about yourself. I am quite good and don't need certificate from you.

You posted so many things and all were BS and false. There is reason........
 
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civfanatic

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Of course, Wealth is always the reason. But one important motto was "spread of Islam". Aurengzeb didn't killed Hindus and destroyed temple for wealth. Library of takshila to Nalanda was noty burnt for wealth. Rajputs were not forced to convert for the sake of wealth. You are biased with your view, which is quite clear.
Rulers like Aurangzeb were an exception to the rule. He was a genuine religious bigot, I agree. But the majority of Islamic invaders were simple raiders who were no different than the numerous other Central Asian peoples who invaded India in the pre-Islamic era. The fact that their religion happened to be Islam should not be taken out of context.
 

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Rulers like Aurangzeb were an exception to the rule. He was a genuine religious bigot, I agree. But the majority of Islamic invaders were simple raiders who were no different than the numerous other Central Asian peoples who invaded India in the pre-Islamic era. The fact that their religion happened to be Islam should not be taken out of context.
Well, You have a valid point and I am sure, All were not same. But difficult to change perception as hatred is deeply rooted against them.

There is genuine hatred against them because every 3rd Muslims ancestors were from Hinduism. Country was divided. Religious temples, monuments were destroyed. I do know, All were not same but very difficult to differentiate.
 
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Param

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During Medieval period, Most of the richest/strong cast were Rajputs, Jats, Khatris, Gujjars, Jat, etc. - Mostly they converted into Islam for various reason.

90% SC, ST, Brahmin didn't converted Islam during 800 years of rule.

Today, SC + ST + Brahmin makes 30%+ population of the whole country.

If they would have converted, Undivided India would be Islamic state. Period!

There was not much discrimination for SC/ST nor Brahmins were opportunist.

Those who don't agree, Kindly contradict with facts why SC/ST didn't converted when Bengali OBC/upper cast and North Indian OBC/Rajput converted into large number ??

Don't post same thing about Brahmanism all the time, if you don't have iota of knowledge of it.
Though I am atheist, I'll pray to God for your sake.

Oh God, please make BSP and SP win UP elections as long as India as exists.
Please make Buddhism flourish.
I do not mind if Christian and Muslim population increases slightly, so bless the minorities too.

All this will keep some ultranationalists under control.
 

Galaxy

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Though I am atheist, I'll pray to God for your sake.

Oh God, please make BSP and SP win UP elections as long as India as exists.
Please make Buddhism flourish.
I do not mind if Christian and Muslim population increases slightly, so bless the minorities too.

All this will keep some ultranationalists under control.
Political party has nothing to do with Nationalist and Secularist people.

Don't worry it's never going to happen. It didn't happened in 800 years and now happening when nationalism is rising ?? :rofl:

Buddhist flourish.....I don't have problem. Good.

Rest, No...... Cry me river still no chance...... :nono:

Those who contradicts me are mostly Muslims, Christians and Atheist. May be co-incident ?

Let see what happens in future :thumb:
 
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Iamanidiot

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:facepalm:

There is some reason why you used your userID is "I am idiot"
Discussion for another thread
20% converted till 17th century. After that 20% become 33% due to High Total Ferlity Rate. Even Muslims were around 25% in 1940's in undivided India. Today 33% because Muslim T.F.R. is almost 50% higher than Hindus/Indian religion.

Even Muslims were around 9% in 1947 in India now, 14%. So 5% is due to High T.F.R.

I didn't expected that you will post this......hmm

Now i bursted your bubble nth time again. :wave:
Nope you proved that the Brahmanical order is utter crap and ultimately at the end of day the current population is more relevant
There is difference between Converted % and population growth over period of time due to T.F.R
.
The poor from the lower castes have higher growth rates and most of the converts are from lower castes again shows the failure of the Brahminical order

What's your point ? They lost all Kingdom with very small influence in front of big empires of Marathas & Sikhs. They didn't had any important role to play. Do you even know the Maratha Kingdom size ? before arrivel of British.
The Marathas were Bitch slapped by the Afghans in the third battle of Panipat .Awadh was under the control of Shuja-ud-daulah.Nizam-ul-mulk was still active in Deccan.Murshid Quli Khan had Bengal under his grip.You are smoking pot if you say they lost kingdoms .The mughal state got weakened but they still retained control over large swathes of North India
Where in your dream ?? as i not heard in India.
You are quite ignorant and show that the degree of interaction with other castes is zero
Another ignorant post. Reservation was given in 1947 and you were talking of discrimination By Brahmans. They could have converted into otherreligion in last 1,000 years. But they didn't.
They converted in large numbers that's why we have Bangladesh,Pakistan,Kashmir and Kerala are testimonials to that
Why not convert into Jainism, Buddhism there also reservation for SC is there ? But last time, I checked population is merely 1% in which most of them were not converted one in last few centuries. How ironic ?
Again shows your ignorance ever heard of Neo-Buddhists of Ambedkar.You certainly are a frog in the well
Don't know about South nor i am posting much about that. if there is no discrimination in south then Why 5% Hindus converted into Christianity in last 65 years but merely 1% in whole North-West-East India combined ?
In Naarth India they converted to Islam courtesy sufis,jiziya and economic goodies.What has brahmanical order got to offer?Answer: cow pee
Missionaries will enter the fray and do soul harvesting once the literacy levels rise in North India
Buddhism didn't defended India because they didn't got opportunity. They lost in starting in NW region. Thankfully, Buddhism didn't replaced Brahmanism otherwise not 20% but 98% population would be Muslims.
thanks to Adi Shankaracharya and his crappu redundant philosophy
Before Buddhism in Tibet, people were aggressive warrior once they become Buddhist, Lost everything by Han. You are talking of Babur and Auregnzeb ? Ignorance and nothing else.
You know jackshit about History.Aurangzheb is the only bigot rest of the time conversion occured due to sufis

Thanks for clarification about yourself. I am quite good and don't need certificate from you.
I called you what you are a pile of poo.Many will concur this as a fact
You posted so many things and all were BS and false. There is reason.......
I post facts and state the obivious because Iam a true patriot I do not live in lala Land and forget about my country's warts.I rather try to find,analyze and resolve them

I do not like to do mental masturbation
 
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