India US Relations

[Butter Chicken]

 

[prasadr14]

meh, dont give a flyingF.

I support release of every hindu who is behind bars vis a vis violence on Jihadis.

 

[Blademaster]

USCIRF can fuck off for all I care. If they accept the SC's verdict of "Every sinner has a future" they bloody well should accept this release. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

[Wisemarko]

Pakistan, USCIRF: “Religious Liberty from Bad to Worse”
08/17/2022Massimo Introvigne
The U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom denounces the “dire condition” of religious minorities.
by Massimo Introvigne

Protests against forced conversions in Pakistan. Credits.
It is a bad month of August for Pakistan. As Bitter Winter has reported, the newly elected Chief Minister of Punjab came under heavy international criticism for making the persecution of the Ahmadis in his province even worse. Accusations of visa trafficking against a senior Pakistani diplomat, former ambassador to Czech Republic Israr Husain, highlighted the presence of human trafficking and corruption at the highest level of the Pakistani bureaucracy. Meanwhile, in the United States, a detailed report by the USCIRF, the United States Commission on International Religious Freedom, indicted the government of Pakistan noting that the situation of religious liberty is going from bad to worse.

The report notes that Islam is the state religion in Pakistan. The constitution reserves a small number of seats in the national and some provincial assemblies to religious minorities but, through a perverse mechanism, the Ahmadis, who are part of the most persecuted minority, in practice are not allowed to vote.

The USCIRF report reviews the laws punishing blasphemy with the death penalty. It notes that, “Those accused of blasphemy face violence, imprisonment with limited opportunity for bail, and even the death sentence, although no blasphemy convict has been executed by the state in Pakistan. Even if acquitted by a court of law, the accused and their family are often ostracized or expelled from the community and face continued aggression. Mere allegations of blasphemy are enough to cause riots and the killing of the accused by armed assailants or vigilante groups. Blasphemy laws are also used to fulfill personal vendettas.”

The fact that so far no death sentence for blasphemy has been carried out is balanced by the sad finding that “many of those who are charged or merely accused of blasphemy are killed by vigilante mobs or in targeted killings.” Obtaining justice from the court against those who were part of the lynching mobs is not easy.

The report mentions the case reported by Bitter Winter in December 2021 of a Sri Lankan manager accused of blasphemy and lynched by a mob who burned his body. It also mentions the horrific case that happened in “February 2022, [when] an angry mob stoned to death Muhammad Mushtaq, a mentally ill man accused of burning the Qur’an, in Khanewal District, Punjab Province. Officers at the scene were also injured while trying to take the accused into custody. The mob of some 300 people then hung his body from a tree. Videos shared on social media showed a large crowd gathered at the site.”

Muhammad Mushtaq after he was stoned to death. From Twitter.
Christians, Sikhs, and Ahmadis have also been killed in sectarian hate crimes outside any accusation of blasphemy. The laws prohibiting the Ahmadis to refer to themselves as Muslims are enforced with more and more strictness. The use by the Ahmadis of any symbol that may constructed as Muslim is enough to arrest them, vandalize their places of worship, and even their graves.

Christians and Hindus report that forced conversions and kidnapping girls from the minority religions who are then “converted” to Islam and married to Muslim men are on the rise. Courts often side with the perpetrators, and claim conversions have been voluntary.

The report also notes the rise of xenophobic and fundamentalist Sunni Muslim political organizations, including Tehreek-e-Labbaik Pakistan, which target Shiite Muslims as heretics.

The report concludes that, notwithstanding Pakistan’s promises to improve its human rights record, the situation of religious liberty, if anything, has deteriorated, and religious minorities remain in a “dire” situation. “The existence and enforcement of blasphemy laws and anti-Ahmadiyya laws facilitate Islamist extremist elements and support their narrative that leaves little space for religious inclusion. Pakistan’s laws further fail to protect religious minorities at increasing risk of abduction, forced marriage, and forced conversion to Islam.” “As the U.S. government continues to engage with Pakistan, the USCIRF notes, it should continue to raise religious freedom concerns and ensure protection of religious communities targeted by Pakistan’s problematic laws and extremist groups.”

Pakistan, USCIRF: “Religious Liberty from Bad to Worse”

The U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom denounces the "dire condition" of religious minorities in Pakistan.

bitterwinter.org

 

[srevster]

Something positive amongst all the noise.

 

[dfcool]

Back in 60s india opened door for mass conversions now its working against india's interests.

Now this.

Best of luck india, you need a lot of it.

 

[LondonParisTokyo]

Back in 60s india opened door for mass conversions now its working against india's interests.

Now this.

Best of luck india, you need a lot of it.

This is all being pushed by the WEF and it's Great Reset agenda. Anybody doing this garbage in India should be executed on sight. It won't happen, but this should not be allowed to pilfer into India's regular discourse.

 

[AnantS]

Biden's Paid Dhamki< TOI has it as headline

PM Modi’s outreach to Putin risks putting India in US crosshairs | India News - Times of India

India News: As Prime Minister Narendra Modi meets Russia’s Vladimir Putin and attends a summit with China’s Xi Jinping on Friday, he’ll need to avoid looking too

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

 

[Wisemarko]

While China has been an important trading partner for Russia, with Beijing’s oil purchases helping to offset a decline in exports to Europe, Beijing has been careful not to run afoul of Western sanctions. Chinese leaders have said the country isn’t selling weapons to Russia.

 

[Love Charger]

View attachment 171725
While China has been an important trading partner for Russia, with Beijing’s oil purchases helping to offset a decline in exports to Europe, Beijing has been careful not to run afoul of Western sanctions. Chinese leaders have said the country isn’t selling weapons to Russia.

We are already few bars down the Chinese in this regard , I understand what you mean by posting this here .

 

[Hari Sud]

With US giving $450 million military upgrade to Pakistan has put India-US relation on a cooling path. The unusual gift to Pakistan with full knowledge that they will repeat their double cross ways sooner than later. Very soon the Pakistan is going to make some friendly gesture to Russia. This US gift to Pakistan is to placate India. They already knew it. The IMF loan approval was more than enough for Pakistan to lead US to Zawahiri in Afghanistan. This F-16 upgrade offer is poke into India’s eyes. Although the F-16 in Pakistani inventory are very old (Manufactured in 1985 and 1992) and any amount of upgrade will still leave them old, hence this upgrade offer is to boost Pakistani Airforce morale which has sagged down with faulty Chinese JF-17 supply.

Any way; any amount of talks with US will not change their mind. The retaliation should be for India to act indifferent in the four nation QUAD which is having trouble formalizing. Lead them into no agreement situation. US will very soon come to senses. They need QUAD because China is inclined to start over trouble over Taiwan again. Multiple nation QUAD will bottle up Chinese navy.

Second thing to do is to order the second tranche of Raffale of 36 planes. The outmoded Pakistani F-16 with even upgrades will feel aghast. The Pakistani boosted morale will sag again.

 

[Hari Sud]

That $450 million upgrade of Pakistani air force after US full knowledge of Pakistani double cross for the last 40 years is also punishment for India for not supporting the west in the Ukraine war, buying Russian oil and practically playing neutral in recent Chinese escalation of Taiwan recapture. Although much of the media thought that it is prize to leading to the death Al Qaeda leader Zawahiri. That prize had already been given in approval of $6.5 billion IMF loan. This $450 million is poke in India's eyes. They already hinted sanctions for buying Russian S-400 under CAATSA, but Congressional opposition put a stop on it hence upgrading Pakistani airforce became the hot anti Indian topic.

 

[HitmanBlood]

View attachment 171725
While China has been an important trading partner for Russia, with Beijing’s oil purchases helping to offset a decline in exports to Europe, Beijing has been careful not to run afoul of Western sanctions. Chinese leaders have said the country isn’t selling weapons to Russia.

I have noticed a certain pro China propaganda on leftist Western media outlets in regards to China's relationship with Russia. The propaganda goes like, China isn't happy with Ukraine war. China is secretly scolding Putin for Ukraine invasion. China isn't supporting Russia enough. China doesn't want world order to collapse. China is more responsible power compared to Russia.

I am not sure whether China is paying for this or leftist media is doing it on their own for their love of China. Whatever is the case, this is helping China's image on world stage. Even people in comment section are saying, See China isn't that bad.

The same China apologist western media is writing harsh words towards India and questioning India's motives regarding relationship with Russia. India's oil purchase from Russia has become a favorite beating stick of western media outlets meanwhile China that buys much more oil from Russia is hardly mentioned.

If I remember correctly, right after Ukraine invasion India abstained from condemning Russia. This led to a massive anti-India social media campaign from westerners including blue tick marks but none even mentioned China for doing the same thing.

Just my observation.

 

[Hari Sud]

Why is U.S.-India relations down?

This is not the first time that relations between the United States and India have experienced problems. It has happened three times before (1954, 1981 and 2001) and every time all the diplomatic and political relationships built is allowed to take a back seat in favor military expediency. This time it is the killing of an unimportant Al Qaida leader Ayman al-Zawahiri. Pakistan had full knowledge of his whereabouts and would tell only if $6.5 billion IMF loan is approved and $450 million military upgrade package for old and outmoded F-16 built in 1984/85 is approved. The US has thrown ten years of diplomatic effort of India-US relations reset, under the bus.

This $450 million of military assistance approved in August 2022 will make Pakistan more warlike and they will find an excuse to start another war.

US diplomats all through the period 1954 till 2022 were reassuring India of great mutually beneficial trade and economic relationship to match China, who is challenging US hegemony in Indo-Pacific region. For this, the United States needs India and sits with Japan, Australia and India in a QUAD group to gain a mutual understanding of defence. Yet the United States puts immediate military opportunism in the forefront and irritates the hell out of India.

The US diplomats in Delhi and the State Department never think twice that India is a $3.5 Trillion economy (2022 IMF data) and rapidly growing to play a world class role as opposed to much smaller $357 billion Pakistani agricultural economy. The latter mainly devotes its budget to the military and deprives the economy of money.

Then why does US resorts to such foolish activities. It is anybody’s guess, but official reasons given in 1954 and 1981 military aid, were to stop imaginary Soviet expansion to the Indian Ocean. The Reason given for 2001 military assistance is to get Pakistan on US side for war in Afghanistan. The diplomatic explanation for recent $450 million military upgrade is unsaid but everybody knows that it is a reward for the killing of Zawahiri.

Therefore, anyone can guess that the actions of the United States are not of a friend, but of an estranged trading partner who has no diplomatic or political affinity with India.

 

[ezsasa]

Why is U.S.-India relations down?

This is not the first time that relations between the United States and India have experienced problems. It has happened three times before (1954, 1981 and 2001) and every time all the diplomatic and political relationships built is allowed to take a back seat in favor military expediency. This time it is the killing of an unimportant Al Qaida leader Ayman al-Zawahiri. Pakistan had full knowledge of his whereabouts and would tell only if $6.5 billion IMF loan is approved and $450 million military upgrade package for old and outmoded F-16 built in 1984/85 is approved. The US has thrown ten years of diplomatic effort of India-US relations reset, under the bus.

This $450 million of military assistance approved in August 2022 will make Pakistan more warlike and they will find an excuse to start another war.

US diplomats all through the period 1954 till 2022 were reassuring India of great mutually beneficial trade and economic relationship to match China, who is challenging US hegemony in Indo-Pacific region. For this, the United States needs India and sits with Japan, Australia and India in a QUAD group to gain a mutual understanding of defence. Yet the United States puts immediate military opportunism in the forefront and irritates the hell out of India.

The US diplomats in Delhi and the State Department never think twice that India is a $3.5 Trillion economy (2022 IMF data) and rapidly growing to play a world class role as opposed to much smaller $357 billion Pakistani agricultural economy. The latter mainly devotes its budget to the military and deprives the economy of money.

Then why does US resorts to such foolish activities. It is anybody’s guess, but official reasons given in 1954 and 1981 military aid, were to stop imaginary Soviet expansion to the Indian Ocean. The Reason given for 2001 military assistance is to get Pakistan on US side for war in Afghanistan. The diplomatic explanation for recent $450 million military upgrade is unsaid but everybody knows that it is a reward for the killing of Zawahiri.

Therefore, anyone can guess that the actions of the United States are not of a friend, but of an estranged trading partner who has no diplomatic or political affinity with India.

Let's also look at it from U.S's perspective, if they don't keep those paki F-16's running, their fleet will be replaced with chini fighter jets, one less opportunity for U.S foreign policy to influence outcomes in this region.

there is a video i posted in think tank thread of turkish FM's view of the world, he says his country does not appreciate U.S's support to kurdish groups. and in this case turkey is a NATO ally, and in turkey's case U.S even operates airbases.

from our perspective, GoI can only factor these in their diplomatic strategy. muricans have their self interest, we have ours, and there are areas our interests meet, and many areas where our interests do not meet.

 

[HitmanBlood]

Why is U.S.-India relations down?

This is not the first time that relations between the United States and India have experienced problems. It has happened three times before (1954, 1981 and 2001) and every time all the diplomatic and political relationships built is allowed to take a back seat in favor military expediency. This time it is the killing of an unimportant Al Qaida leader Ayman al-Zawahiri. Pakistan had full knowledge of his whereabouts and would tell only if $6.5 billion IMF loan is approved and $450 million military upgrade package for old and outmoded F-16 built in 1984/85 is approved. The US has thrown ten years of diplomatic effort of India-US relations reset, under the bus.

This $450 million of military assistance approved in August 2022 will make Pakistan more warlike and they will find an excuse to start another war.

US diplomats all through the period 1954 till 2022 were reassuring India of great mutually beneficial trade and economic relationship to match China, who is challenging US hegemony in Indo-Pacific region. For this, the United States needs India and sits with Japan, Australia and India in a QUAD group to gain a mutual understanding of defence. Yet the United States puts immediate military opportunism in the forefront and irritates the hell out of India.

The US diplomats in Delhi and the State Department never think twice that India is a $3.5 Trillion economy (2022 IMF data) and rapidly growing to play a world class role as opposed to much smaller $357 billion Pakistani agricultural economy. The latter mainly devotes its budget to the military and deprives the economy of money.

Then why does US resorts to such foolish activities. It is anybody’s guess, but official reasons given in 1954 and 1981 military aid, were to stop imaginary Soviet expansion to the Indian Ocean. The Reason given for 2001 military assistance is to get Pakistan on US side for war in Afghanistan. The diplomatic explanation for recent $450 million military upgrade is unsaid but everybody knows that it is a reward for the killing of Zawahiri.

Therefore, anyone can guess that the actions of the United States are not of a friend, but of an estranged trading partner who has no diplomatic or political affinity with India.

Democrat party under Biden's leadership doesn't see Islamic Jihad as big threat as Trump era republicans saw. Democrat party is currently full of ideological Islamic apologists like Ilhan Omar, Rashida Talib, etc.

India is also painted very negatively by leftist media and Modi government is often compared with Right Wing parties in their own countries this is making politicians especially on Democratic side, uncomfortable to openly support India.

Coming to China, Leftists in US and elsewhere love CCP style government. They go to extra lengths to praise their efficiency. Only after Covid wave and efforts from Trump admin changed some public opinion about China.

When democrat party came to power I myself said on this very form that our relationship with USA, that gained momentum under Trump, will now head towards a downward spiral. We are slowly seeing this in the form of US giving all type of assistance to Pakistan just like they did for last 75 years.

On topic of Al Zawahiri, IMO many Indian experts are giving false credit to Pakistan. I don't think that ISI has some special intel in Afghanistan that CIA doesn't have. USA has capability to track every single terrorist in Afghanistan. They don't need help from Pakistan who doesn't even know when and where terrorists will strike in their own country let alone Afghanistan.

Let's also look at it from U.S's perspective, if they don't keep those paki F-16's running, their fleet will be replaced with chini fighter jets, one less opportunity for U.S foreign policy to influence outcomes in this region.

This is a hopium that I am hearing from lot of Indian policy experts. If US didn't give Pakis money they would buy Chinese planes or even funny what some hopium sellers are saying that after this assistance Pakis are only allowed to use F16 against terrorist in Afghanistan.

The biggest leverage US has against Pakistan is IMF and world bank loans. They don't need to pay military hafta in the name of F16 maintenance to have influence on Pakistan.

Those F16 are for India only. US knows this and they don't care about this. They see India as just another emerging competitor that doesn't tow their line. Pakistan is a great asset to keep India in check.

The way Americans reacted after India's neutrality, the way social media trends were generated against India, it was clear that they weren't happy. UAE, China and lot of countries remained neutral but CIA backed western media overwhelmingly criticized only India. Whatever pipe dreams Indian hopium sellers are selling in the name of grand strategy, the fact is our relationship with America isn't on good terms as they were few years ago.

 

[Hari Sud]

Let's also look at it from U.S's perspective, if they don't keep those paki F-16's running, their fleet will be replaced with chini fighter jets, one less opportunity for U.S foreign policy to influence outcomes in this region.

there is a video i posted in think tank thread of turkish FM's view of the world, he says his country does not appreciate U.S's support to kurdish groups. and in this case turkey is a NATO ally, and in turkey's case U.S even operates airbases.

from our perspective, GoI can only factor these in their diplomatic strategy. muricans have their self interest, we have ours, and there are areas our interests meet, and many areas where our interests do not meet.

‘Disagree….. if Chinese hardware was good enough then Pakis would not turn to US for upgrade. The Pakis are getting J-10 from China but it is no better than JF-17. They need a match for Rafale and Upgraded Su-30Mk1 and are unable to find one.

 

[Hari Sud]

Democrat party under Biden's leadership doesn't see Islamic Jihad as big threat as Trump era republicans saw. Democrat party is currently full of ideological Islamic apologists like Ilhan Omar, Rashida Talib, etc.

India is also painted very negatively by leftist media and Modi government is often compared with Right Wing parties in their own countries this is making politicians especially on Democratic side, uncomfortable to openly support India.

Coming to China, Leftists in US and elsewhere love CCP style government. They go to extra lengths to praise their efficiency. Only after Covid wave and efforts from Trump admin changed some public opinion about China.

When democrat party came to power I myself said on this very form that our relationship with USA, that gained momentum under Trump, will now head towards a downward spiral. We are slowly seeing this in the form of US giving all type of assistance to Pakistan just like they did for last 75 years.

On topic of Al Zawahiri, IMO many Indian experts are giving false credit to Pakistan. I don't think that ISI has some special intel in Afghanistan that CIA doesn't have. USA has capability to track every single terrorist in Afghanistan. They don't need help from Pakistan who doesn't even know when and where terrorists will strike in their own country let alone Afghanistan.


This is a hopium that I am hearing from lot of Indian policy experts. If US didn't give Pakis money they would buy Chinese planes or even funny what some hopium sellers are saying that after this assistance Pakis are only allowed to use F16 against terrorist in Afghanistan.

The biggest leverage US has against Pakistan is IMF and world bank loans. They don't need to pay military hafta in the name of F16 maintenance to have influence on Pakistan.

Those F16 are for India only. US knows this and they don't care about this. They see India as just another emerging competitor that doesn't tow their line. Pakistan is a great asset to keep India in check.

The way Americans reacted after India's neutrality, the way social media trends were generated against India, it was clear that they weren't happy. UAE, China and lot of countries remained neutral but CIA backed western media overwhelmingly criticized only India. Whatever pipe dreams Indian hopium sellers are selling in the name of grand strategy, the fact is our relationship with America isn't on good terms as they were few years ago.

‘Well said……. Old man Biden has to leave.

 

[ezsasa]

‘Disagree….. if Chinese hardware was good enough then Pakis would not turn to US for upgrade. The Pakis are getting J-10 from China but it is no better than JF-17. They need a match for Rafale and Upgraded Su-30Mk1 and are unable to find one.

sure, that's from our perspective.

let's look at policy advisories that white house is getting from their think tanks.

The lesson for the United States is that if it seeks to curb China’s influence in South Asia, it should pay attention to how potential recipients of this largesse respond to China and the BRI.

https://www.cfr.org/report/china-and-belt-and-road-initiative-south-asia

if we spend time looking into policy advisories to senate, we might even get the exact policy advisory they are getting.

 

[ezsasa]

This is a hopium that I am hearing from lot of Indian policy experts. If US didn't give Pakis money they would buy Chinese planes or even funny what some hopium sellers are saying that after this assistance Pakis are only allowed to use F16 against terrorist in Afghanistan.

The biggest leverage US has against Pakistan is IMF and world bank loans. They don't need to pay military hafta in the name of F16 maintenance to have influence on Pakistan.

Those F16 are for India only. US knows this and they don't care about this. They see India as just another emerging competitor that doesn't tow their line. Pakistan is a great asset to keep India in check.

The way Americans reacted after India's neutrality, the way social media trends were generated against India, it was clear that they weren't happy. UAE, China and lot of countries remained neutral but CIA backed western media overwhelmingly criticized only India. Whatever pipe dreams Indian hopium sellers are selling in the name of grand strategy, the fact is our relationship with America isn't on good terms as they were few years ago.

Sure, F16 is an example i took to distinguish between military aid and civilian aid.

ultimately point remains the same, muricans are going to spend money on pak. it is us, who need to stop taking it as an affront to us.

i haven't seen any policy advisory which says, U.S must abandon pak for the sake of India. we are not there yet.