India US Relations

[Roshan]

In sociology, siege mentality is a shared feeling of victimization and defensiveness—a term derived from the actual experience of military defences of real sieges. It is a collective state of mind in which a group of people believe themselves constantly attacked, oppressed, or isolated in the face of the negative intentions of the rest of the world. Although a group phenomenon, the term describes both the emotions and thoughts of the group as a whole, and as individuals.[1]

The result is a state of being overly fearful of surrounding peoples, and an intractably defensive attitude.

Adopting this attitude never leads to growth and prosperity but slow and systemic extinction. Kashmiri Pundits never went on the offensive or could get their lands back due to this reason. They simply adjusted to the circumstances and were continuously under attack.

going on the offensive requires a pro-india diaspora. Never leaving the land and putting head in the sand like an ostrich is what the Pandits did and look where they are today…

All well and good but the point he made has nothing to do with 'siege mentality'. It is just an attempt to over intellectualize the situation and project because what was said may not be palatable to certain people.
The way you go about it one would think it is optimal to only keep migrating and brag about how true you are to your roots. Not the way you win any 'culture war' nor address the true nature of the problem.

 

[ThE BrOkEn HeArT]

Meltdown.

 

[Suryavanshi]

All well and good but the point he made has nothing to do with 'siege mentality'. It is just an attempt to over intellectualize the situation and project because what was said may not be palatable to certain people.
The way you go about it one would think it is optimal to only keep migrating and brag about how true you are to your roots. Not the way you win any 'culture war' nor address the true nature of the problem.

It's the same old. "Everyine Immigrate cus that's the best thing ever except no one will be left behind by this line of thought".

 

[Suryavanshi]

i think ur creating a impossible scenario to fuck with the phoren indians here

I do want to fuck with them, I want them to know that they aren't Indian Citizen anymore they have no skin in the game no matter how much care and concern they express.

these people clearly care about india .

More than they care about their US citizenship?

if ur worried about brain-drain , then u can thank our political elite for that . if ur worried about anti-india immigrants - i doubt they will have any real impact on indo-us relation.

i see them as a asset , . they can help us lobby US congress and shit .

No doubt they have their own usage but you have to call their false assertion that they are dual citizen.
They never will be.

 

[FalconSlayers]

We’re deeply concerned about the human rights abuse of our Diaspora in the Zoonited States of Gaymerica.

 

[srevster]

I do want to fuck with them, I want them to know that they aren't Indian Citizen anymore they have no skin in the game no matter how much care and concern they express.

More than they care about their US citizenship?

No doubt they have their own usage but you have to call their false assertion that they are dual citizen.
They never will be.

“There is no happiness for him who does not travel, Rohita! thus we have heard. Living in the society of men, the best man often becomes a sinner by seduction, which is best avoided by wandering (travel) to places void of human dwellings; for Indra is surely the friend of the traveller. Therefore , wander”

“ A man who sleeps is like the Kali age ( iron age); a man who awakes is like the Dvapara age (Bronze age); a man who rises is like the Treta age (silver age) and a man who travels is like the Krita age (Golden age).


Without travelling to a foreign land, one does not obtain glory, fame, knowledge of accomplishments or anything – Kathakosa

The self-respecting person finds his own worth that he is able, worthy and can attempt and know by journeying in alien lands.

-Vishnusharma, Panchatantra, Book 1.

 

[srevster]

1. पर्यटन् पृथिवीं सर्वां, गुणान्वेषणतत्परः।
   Panchatantra

जो गुणों की खोज में तत्पर है,वे लोग सारी पृथिवी घुमते है।

Those who wish to seek virtues travel the entire world.

हदये सुखसम्पत्तिः पदे पर्यटनं फलम्।
Source – Sarva-Siddhant-Samgrah

उनके मन में सुख, संपत्ती और पैरों में पर्यटन होता है।

They have happiness and wealth in their hearts and traveling in their feet.

3. चरैवेति चरैवेति॥
Aitareya Brahman 7.15

चलते रहो, चलते रहो…

Keep moving, keep moving…

4. यस्मिन्प्रचीर्णे च पुनश्चरन्ति; स वै श्रेष्ठो गच्छत यत्र कामः।
Mahabharat, Ashwamedh Parva 7-23

जो लोग सामनेआए हुए (मार्ग) पर चलते है, वह श्रेष्ठ होते है और उनको अभीष्ट प्राप्त होता है।

Those who walk on what has come forth, are indeed great and get what they desire.

5. चरन्ति वसुधां कृत्स्नां वावदूका बहुश्रुताः।
Mahabharat, Shanti Parva 19-24

बुद्धीमान् और वाक्-कुशल लोग, सारी पृथ्वी घुमते है।

Intelligent and eloquent people roam around the whole world.

6. चरन्मार्गान्विजानाति |
Mahabharat, Adi Parva 133-23

पथिक व्यक्ती को मार्ग पता चलता है।

A wanderer (eventually) knows the path.

7. आस्ते भग आसीनस्य, ऊध्वर्स्तिष्ठति तिष्ठतः।
शेते निपद्यमानस्य, चराति चरतो भगः।
Aitareya Brahman 7-15

बैठे हुए मनुष्य का सौभाग्य बैठा रहता है, उठ कर खडे होने वाले व्यक्ति का सौभाग्य भी उठ कर खड़ा हो जाता है,लेटे हुए मनुष्य का सौभाग्य सोया रहता है, और चलने वाले व्यक्ति का सौभाग्य उसके साथ- साथ चल पड़ता है।

 

[srevster]

The fate of a person who sits, also seats. The fate of a standing person also stands and the fate of a sleeping person also sleeps. But the fate of a person who walks (travels) also walks (grows) along.

8. चरन् वै मधु विन्दति, चरन् स्वादुमुदुम्बरम्।
सूयर्स्य पश्य श्रेमाणं, यो न तन्द्रयते चरन्।
Aitareya Brahman 7.15

जो सदा श्रमशील, गतिशील हैं, वो सदा मधुपान (शहद/ अमृत / परिश्रम का सुफल) करते हैं, कर्मयोगी को सदा श्रेष्ठ कर्म का श्रेष्ठ परिणाम मिलता है। देखो, सूर्य कितना, कर्मशील और सृजन शील है, पल भर भी जो दूसरों के कल्याण के लिये अपने श्रम से कभी विमुख नही हैं ।

The one who travels enjoys the nectar. The same enjoy sweet fruits. Look at the efforts lord Surya, he is never tired of walking.

9. अन्योन्यवीर्यनिकषाः पुरुषा भ्रमन्ति।
Urubhangam 2

एक दुसरे की पहचान जो वीरता से करते है, वे लोग घुमते है।

Those who test each-other based on their valor, travel.

10. दुःखं हन्तुं सुखं प्राप्तुं ते भ्रमन्ति मुधाम्बरे।
Bodhicharyavararah

वे आकाश में मुग्ध रूप से, दुःख भुलने के लिये और सुख के प्राप्ति के लिये घूमते (उडते) है (हमारी तरह)।

They roam madly in space, to forget the grief, and to attain happiness (just like us).

11. हृदि श्रीर्मस्तके राज्य पादे पर्यटनं फलम्।
Sarva-siddhant-samgrah

उनके मन में संपत्ति, सिर के उपर राज्य (का दायित्व) और पैरों में पर्यटन होता है।

They have wealth in heart, kingship on their heads (responsibilities) and traveling in their feet.

12. योजनानां सहस्त्रं तु शनैर्गच्छेत् पिपीलिका।
Subhashitamala

शनैः शनैः ही सही, सतत चलते रहने पर, चींटी जैसी छोटी सी जीव भी सहस्रों योजन की यात्रा पूरी कर लेती है।

Even a tiny creature such as ant can move ahead miles together if it keeps on walking consistently.

 

[ezsasa]

1. पर्यटन् पृथिवीं सर्वां, गुणान्वेषणतत्परः।
   Panchatantra

जो गुणों की खोज में तत्पर है,वे लोग सारी पृथिवी घुमते है।

Those who wish to seek virtues travel the entire world.

हदये सुखसम्पत्तिः पदे पर्यटनं फलम्।
Source – Sarva-Siddhant-Samgrah

उनके मन में सुख, संपत्ती और पैरों में पर्यटन होता है।

They have happiness and wealth in their hearts and traveling in their feet.

3. चरैवेति चरैवेति॥
Aitareya Brahman 7.15

चलते रहो, चलते रहो…

Keep moving, keep moving…

4. यस्मिन्प्रचीर्णे च पुनश्चरन्ति; स वै श्रेष्ठो गच्छत यत्र कामः।
Mahabharat, Ashwamedh Parva 7-23

जो लोग सामनेआए हुए (मार्ग) पर चलते है, वह श्रेष्ठ होते है और उनको अभीष्ट प्राप्त होता है।

Those who walk on what has come forth, are indeed great and get what they desire.

5. चरन्ति वसुधां कृत्स्नां वावदूका बहुश्रुताः।
Mahabharat, Shanti Parva 19-24

बुद्धीमान् और वाक्-कुशल लोग, सारी पृथ्वी घुमते है।

Intelligent and eloquent people roam around the whole world.

6. चरन्मार्गान्विजानाति |
Mahabharat, Adi Parva 133-23

पथिक व्यक्ती को मार्ग पता चलता है।

A wanderer (eventually) knows the path.

7. आस्ते भग आसीनस्य, ऊध्वर्स्तिष्ठति तिष्ठतः।
शेते निपद्यमानस्य, चराति चरतो भगः।
Aitareya Brahman 7-15

बैठे हुए मनुष्य का सौभाग्य बैठा रहता है, उठ कर खडे होने वाले व्यक्ति का सौभाग्य भी उठ कर खड़ा हो जाता है,लेटे हुए मनुष्य का सौभाग्य सोया रहता है, और चलने वाले व्यक्ति का सौभाग्य उसके साथ- साथ चल पड़ता है।

what's this got to do with this thread?

 

[Suryavanshi]

what's this got to do with this thread?

Trying to justify Immigration.
We had some back and forth about Immigrants and their personal inclination towards their resident country and ancestral homeland.

 

[srevster]

Trying to justify Immigration.
We had some back and forth about Immigrants and their personal inclination towards their resident country and ancestral homeland.

Immigration is justified.

 

[ezsasa]

Trying to justify Immigration.
We had some back and forth about Immigrants and their personal inclination towards their resident country and ancestral homeland.

US second round of "genuis visa" is a testament to murican foreign policy foresight to sustain their global leadership. once a path has been laid somebody or the other is bound to walk on that path. US decided Bangladesh is good for textile manufacturing so they created a university for it after their independence, U.S decided that IIT is more suitable for India a few decades after independence, so they funded one in India.

 

[srevster]

US second round of "genuis visa" is a testament to murican foreign policy foresight to sustain their global leadership. once a path has been laid somebody or the other is bound to walk on that path. US decided Bangladesh is good for textile manufacturing so they created a university for it after their independence, U.S decided that IIT is more suitable for India a few decades after independence, so they funded one in India.

US understands immigration inward is important given its issues with declining population. It maintains leadership by importing the best. From India’s perspective, Indians can travel there, contribute to the economy but also act as liaisons for tech transfer to India which can compress R&D roadmaps by directly deploying tested technology at much larger scale. This is now evolving to joint collaboration at the R&D level with US companies directly sourcing R&D in India alongside small satellite offices in the US for Sales, Customer Success, Fundraising and Marketing. These hybrid companies directly employ Indians and use the ability to scale to outgrow local U.S. firms. The same burn gives them the ability to hire more people and compress the roadmaps.

 

[ezsasa]

US understands immigration inward is important given its issues with declining population. It maintains leadership by importing the best. From India’s perspective, Indians can travel there, contribute to the economy but also act as liaisons for tech transfer to India which can compress R&D roadmaps by directly deploying tested technology at much larger scale. This is now evolving to joint collaboration at the R&D level with US companies directly sourcing R&D in India alongside small satellite offices in the US for Sales, Customer Success, Fundraising and Marketing. These hybrid companies directly employ Indians and use the ability to scale to outgrow local U.S. firms. The same burn gives them the ability to hire more people and compress the roadmaps.

what is the valuation of an Indian founded american company at the top of the list?

 

[Rassil Krishnan]

bullshit.
Cultural connection is a feedback loop. Home cultural strength strengthens diaspora culture, disapora population & affinity to home cultural strength feeds back into home culture. There is no magic lakshmanrekha to cross where its like 'wow bro, your home culture is bulletproof, now go spread it elsewhere'.

In fact, history shows us, that a strong disapora is critical to the survival and adaptability of home culture, while the opposite is fatal to the survivability of home culture : the arabs vs Indians is a KEY historical lesson in this.

At no point did arabs produce a more substantial & intricate culture than Indians but they gradually came to dominate the Arabian sea littoral, due to their affinity to travel & settle for trade relations, while India did the exact opposite, thanks to your mentality and spread of this 'mleccha lands and going to there is unclean' mentality of the late classical/early medieval era Indians. By the time the Kannuaj triangle period ended, Indians- who had dominated the arabian AND bay of bengal trade & set up shop as far away as Alexandria ( enough to start a school of buddhism there- therapautae) - had refused to leave their lands, were completely unaware of what the socio-political and technological developments were happening in the outside world - to the point that the strategic fool named Prithviraj chauhan rode horses with wooden stirrups while the turks rode horses with iron stirrups and nobody in India had any strategic knowledge to exploit the frissures in the Caliphate - how could they, when there is no diaspora and there are no eyes and ears of the homeland, feeding back info to home ???

This is one area where the Chinese have a decisive cultural edge over Indians, where they do not look down on their disapora, they treat them as emissaries & eyes/ears of China in foreign lands. If you think that the west kowtows to Chinese sensibilities just because chinese economy is big, then you are missing full 50% of the picture. It is also because at least 30% of chinese-Americans/chinese-canadians are DAMN PROUD to be Chinese and they will not tolerate any attack on PRC from their own governments in Canada/USA etc. Even when Meng Wangzhou case was ongoing, plenty of Chinese-Canadians stood by PRC, influenced politicians here etc- all of which are completely inaccissible without having a diaspora population.

Anti-disapora and anti-immigrant attitude is also why Japan fell behind and was forced at gunpoint by USA to open its ports to trade or else face consequences. That USA was even considering this, was undreamt of by Japan, until US gunboats LITERALLY showed up in yokohoma harbour. Why ?? No diaspora.

In a global village model, especially with instant communication, diaspora is critical to any nation's narrative & cultural suvival.

I don't have much faith in the Indian diaspora and I feel their roots are fragile.All the good will indians have received is because of the passive good stats achieved by Indians as individuals and there seems to be no collective story or goal.

The Chinese can give this sense of purpose because their government is all on the same page and has been on the same page for long periods at a time.

I seriously don't think India has that capability to direct large no of Indians to do our bidding in foreign land.all the crowds we get are genuine people who are motivated by their individual will and wants,bless their hearts.i wish India was so devious.

Which is why I won't bank on the Indian diaspora.they might easily turn anti Indian and anti hindu because the Indian state does give them much of a direction or spine to follow a set narrative which in turn is ensured by a sense of continuity and purpose that is hard to achieve in a democracy.I wish it to change.but i believe our main strength should only be expected from the mainland, diaspora maybe rich,but are too scattered and individualistic to be of any significant factor other than giving us passive goodwill by being model citizens.

 

[srevster]

what is the valuation of an Indian founded american company at the top of the list?

US understands immigration inward is important given its issues with declining population. It maintains leadership by importing the best. From India’s perspective, Indians can travel there, contribute to the economy but also act as liaisons for tech transfer to India which can compress R&D roadmaps by directly deploying tested technology at much larger scale. This is now evolving to joint collaboration at the R&D level with US companies directly sourcing R&D in India alongside small satellite offices in the US for Sales, Customer Success, Fundraising and Marketing. These hybrid companies directly employ Indians and use the ability to scale to outgrow local U.S. firms. The same burn gives them the ability to hire more people and compress the roadmaps.

Fundamentally the make in India model needs to facilitate growth in R&D and reverse the polarity of tech adoption. India designs, produces and manufactures the product with US localization for their consumer. This is will be an ideal scenario.

the reason the UK conquered India was due to their foreign corporations operating in India, with no Indian corporations operating in the U.K. this imbalance in geopolitical strength lead to exploitation and eventually colonialism.

now the reverse is happening, Indian founders are creating companies In the US. Indian corporations are setting up shop in the US at the same cadence that US companies are setting up shop in India. We cannot apply the colonial model to this paradigm because this time the balance of power is equal and long term skewed in India’s favor. Hence my suggestion that India should encourage immigration in and out of the country and maintain a net positive balance

 

[Rassil Krishnan]

US understands immigration inward is important given its issues with declining population. It maintains leadership by importing the best. From India’s perspective, Indians can travel there, contribute to the economy but also act as liaisons for tech transfer to India which can compress R&D roadmaps by directly deploying tested technology at much larger scale. This is now evolving to joint collaboration at the R&D level with US companies directly sourcing R&D in India alongside small satellite offices in the US for Sales, Customer Success, Fundraising and Marketing. These hybrid companies directly employ Indians and use the ability to scale to outgrow local U.S. firms. The same burn gives them the ability to hire more people and compress the roadmaps.

So many ifs in your thought.this is my problem.

India's benefits are only cashed in if many ifs are achieved.there is no guarantee.the Chinese due to the their governance style,there is forced returns on the diaspora.it is not that I don't have faith in diasporas to get things done.it is just that I don't have faith in the current setup of diaspora - homeland in India to get things done for us.other countries do more for their home countries by being less impressive than Indians in stats and sometimes even being harmful for the host nation.pakistan for example has comparable influence in uk even though they are actually harming he future of the UK.indians have to be the top at everything and still don't get the returns on it as other countries would have gotten.something is seriously inefficient in our setup.

Do we really need to be able to perform 1000-2000 times better than pakis for example to be treated 10 times better than them ,seems bad returns for me.i am sure another country would have bought the entire country with actual good will we have got.it feels very inefficient.

 

[srevster]

what is the valuation of an Indian founded american company at the top of the list?

$4B

 

[gajapati]

Huge immigration to usa has created a complex challenge between usa india ..

Because it creates a situation where domestic politics might become a factor in relation . It should never be so ..

There is also a situation where parallels are being drawn between issues in usa and issues in india there by over simplifying it .. For exp caste , minorities in india vs black people of USA .. There is a story behind the caste riot that happened in maharastra few years back .

Many people who migrate they carry a certain impression of india with them which is not positive most of the time .. And when they acquire powerful position they cnt separate themselves from that psyche there by removing the objective assessment when it comes to issues of india ..

another challenge is when in america values and atmosphere which combine vastly diverse population is missing so sub nationalism gets bolstered .

Now there is also leftist academic nexus which has established its base in USA ..


But as far as immigration is concerned i value freedom of people to move out when they lack opportunity .. Its up to them .

 

[GaudaNaresh]

I don't have much faith in the Indian diaspora and I feel their roots are fragile.All the good will indians have received is because of the passive good stats achieved by Indians as individuals and there seems to be no collective story or goal.

The Chinese can give this sense of purpose because their government is all on the same page and has been on the same page for long periods at a time.

I seriously don't think India has that capability to direct large no of Indians to do our bidding in foreign land.all the crowds we get are genuine people who are motivated by their individual will and wants,bless their hearts.i wish India was so devious.

Which is why I won't bank on the Indian diaspora.they might easily turn anti Indian and anti hindu because the Indian state does give them much of a direction or spine to follow a set narrative which in turn is ensured by a sense of continuity and purpose that is hard to achieve in a democracy.I wish it to change.but i believe our main strength should only be expected from the mainland, diaspora maybe rich,but are too scattered and individualistic to be of any significant factor other than giving us passive goodwill by being model citizens.

Indian diaspora has a huge culture divide from the U-40 & O-40 crowd. O-40 crowd are a lot more gungadeen gora worshipper type, the U-40 crowd is a lot more 'fuck western trash' mentality, with the chasm growing even bigger for the U-30 crowd.

We don't need top down directive to behave in a culturally cohesive manner- Europeans don't do that due to top down directives ( their media does, but not their invididuals), the individuals do it from a sense of superiority and cultural pride - the same traits that are emergent in the Indian diaspora youth and we are further accentuating the feeling in the west.