India US Relations

[HitmanBlood]

Giga Chad Jaishankar

 

[Bharatiya]

And I doubt there is something called russian led world order against west anymore as we move forward . It ll be china led world order against west . So I am afraid we might not even have a choice in this regard . At best we ll engage Russia at individual level and keep the diverging forces some what less hostile , manageable towards our interest .

Imo, the relationship with Russia in a decade will be more on nostalgia than tangible benefits. While it might pain the Pro-Russians in our country, Russia can't be depended upon as they're quickly becoming China's junior partner.

However, we should also not abandon Russia and prevent it from becoming China's economic vassal. Russia wouldn't want that either. That's why they support India now and that's why they'll continue to support us. But they have a limited window to jump ships and thus, we have a deadline of sorts to grow an economy strong enough to wrestle China's.

This is Indian perspective. This is how India wants to be but it may not be agreed by other side. America can throw India out of their camp and Russia too can ditch India to join Chinese camp.

The world of geopolitics is full of uncertainties. The only assurance is our own strength.

Unless we badly fuck up like Nehru did during Cold War, we wouldn't be abandoning any camp.

As long as we keep building our strength, we will be continued to be courted by both sides. Though we'll remain West-leaning than China leaning for the foreseeable future, it is in our interests if we can gain benefits from China without compromising national security.

 

[HitmanBlood]

@HitmanBlood "Let's hate west and be against them " is trendy and based . I get it . But should it be against our interest . Is China going to welcome us with sonpapdi after that .. We have nothing to gain here .

Maybe this my last reply on this topic.

Please read what I have written. I have always advocated for self-reliance and independent foreign policy. Its only foreign policy virgins who are advocating india to be in a specific "Camp"

 

[Abdus Salem killed]

Never understood why Indians think China is the biggest threat when America is 10X worse. China doesn't have a fifth column inside India. How many elite Indians - especially in the media - are mindslaves of the US? How much cultural influence does the US have vs China over India? Wokism, LGBT stuff, radical feminism. All this is Western and especially US imports. China actually opposes all those things.

I'm not saying China is perfect. They fucked up in 2020 with the border skirmish and they alone bear responsibility for that crisis. But that is peanuts compared to the long-term cultural threat that the US poses. It won't be long before "Brahmanical patriarchy" becomes the norm in sociological seminars all across India and the Modi govt will be too scared to do anything about it. And if anyone dares do anything, the US will scream about "freedom of speech".

India is dancing with a snake to fend off a dragon.

The dragon is the true threat though
The dragon arms the pigs to fight the elephant
The eagle also supports the pig but finds some food for the elephant as well
The dragon is the true enemy

 

[Bharatiya]

We need to get out of this mindset that "war is a thing of the past". No self-respecting country that wants to have a sovereign, independent stance on the global high table takes this view.
COAS said this recently:-

Ukraine isn't a nuclear nation unlike Pakistan. So, the possibility of a full-scale war between India and Paki is low.

We should still prepare for it, like any sane nation would.

However, Conventional warfare was THE only way in the past. But now, we can also wage war across multiple domains: Information. Trade. Diplomacy. Technology. Biological.

Conventional warfare shouldn't be treated as the only arrow in the quiver.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

However, Conventional warfare was THE only way in the past. But now, we can also wage war across multiple domains: Information. Trade. Diplomacy. Technology. Biological.

Conventional warfare shouldn't be treated as the only arrow in the quiver.

Agree with that. Which is why Armed Forces are working on a non-contact warfare doctrine. @ezsasa had made a thread about it. But no progress heard about it in public domain since General Rawat's untimely demise.

 

[Rassil Krishnan]

@HitmanBlood "Let's hate west and be against them " is trendy and based . I get it . But should it be against our interest . Is China going to welcome us with sonpapdi after that .. We have nothing to gain here .

why does everyone assume that when we are anti USA,we can't compete against china.we put in more harsher anti-china policies than the so called superpower who is officially in competition with china.

we started initiatives in full force against chinese manufacturing by manufacturing in-house despite having fewer resources and leverage than so called USA.Like it or not,India is a lot less confused about its destiny and future than USA is about it.it can't decide whether if china is enemy or friend and wants India to act in its favour against china for less than what it will ask of pakistan and you want regular indians to care about the US as if we have any shared values(as if that matters).And for the record,we have far more in common with the people of china than with the current and future western world(not that it matters a lot).chinese and indians are both people who would like be insular and have only our own tribe and class living next to us and we both hate immigrants compared to the US that is actually very woke and hates any civilization with unique culture and ethnic makeup.they are insecure about our size and culture and know that it would be a problem in the future and act to undermine us in ways russia has never done and you want us to play the Russia-US equal -equal game.

Russia at it's worst got favorable deals for its industry,it does not spend every waking movement organizing culture and religious based hate against us even though they could have.

Best thing for india to do is use the US as an export location and never accept joint defence product research as it is always a way to hamper our indigenous capability.just at best buy products in areas where we cannot get a replacement soon and furiously induct our own local products and then indigenize sub components because with 'friends' like the US who needs enemies.

 

[johnj]

Lol..if you think Israel gave India all those weapons without US's acknowledgement then you are naive.. Whole of Israel defense establisment is highly coupled with US DoD and every year Israel get around $100 billion in military aid from Uncle Sam..
Also if you think US has provided zero tech to India then you are again wrong. The LCA fighter jets Programme got a decent amount of help from US companies especially (Lockheed Martin & GE) in the 80's after Late Indira and her Son Rajiv Gandhi started thawing relationship with the US. There was brief gap due to sanctions imposed by Clinton Admin due 98 nuclear blast as well as Kargil war. But thing started opening up in 2002 when US Sectary of Defense Rumsfeld visited India to start laying the ground work of Indo-US Civil Nuclear Program along with other technical cooperation. I can go on with provided tons of organizational as well as technical cooperation between US & India but I just hat typing all that at the moment.
Now does US screws over its own allies ? Yes it does in order to maintain Military & technical supremacy ( For eg: Israel used to have a fighter jet program, but the US went out of its way to sabotage that in order to keep the sales of F-16s to IAF.
The best path for India is to start development its own MIC especially with the help Indian Companies etc. Indian Defence Organization should focus on quality R&D, reduce its staff, outsource lot of manufacturing to defence manufacturers like TATA & Kalyani while maintaining the IPs to its self. DARPA of USA and DRDO of India have almost similar budget but DARPA has half the staff of DRDO since unlike DRDO it doesn't do manufacturing, maintenance etc but instead hires the best minds to do important Weapons platform development and contract out the test & simulation as well as manufacturing to other companies.
This is my take, or maybe I am wrong and you guys know more than me..

Huge essay but a tiny problem, none of them come close to Indo-Russian relationship.
If you check all your data/info, which is right[all] you can conclude, US-India relation go up to neutral, then fall to enemy level, and it is even hard to reach a friendship level.
Case of Israel - Israel provided military tech to China, with US permission ? nope. Israel is not a slave of US, all the tech Israel provided to India not comes under US aid & r&d. Israel only started sharing US aided tech only after Indo-US relation reach neutral/normal.
Nuclear deal - Russia building 6 to 12 reactor, what about US.
Allay - Pakistan is an allay, India not, just partner.
All the thing is true wrt US, and I agree but you need to consider the outcome also. DRDO is not DARPA, a small part of DRDO is DARPA.

 

[Blademaster]

You write an essay, missing the main point - WAR.
Pak never consider attacking India using Chinese junk, but they will using US weapons.
India know balakot counter strike - now US upgrading Pak F16 why ? and what happened to Ukraine. ''Not fooling anybody'' - said by Jaishankar, becz he & India knows F16 actual purpose, to attack India. If US unable to provide satisfying statement, India have no choice, but to upgraded existing fighter jets, reconsider su57, jv with Safran.
Anyways its a good news to restarting Indo-US relationship without military angle [weapon purchase] and to focus on make in India, trade, fdi etc improving Indian economy & hdi neglecting politics.

All is said and fine but the US must be made to understand that India will have its independence one way or the other from all others and that means energy independence, food independence, security independence, defense industry independence, etc. So if India wants to buy Iranian oil or Russian oil and US has a problem with that, US must be told to fuck off in the strongest terms. If India wants to buy Russian weapons, US can well fuck off. If India wants to sell weapons to Russia or Iran, then US can well fuck off.

 

[asaffronladoftherisingsun]

 

[Roshan]

Very telling that the canned riposte to being pointed toward actions of western and CIA backed globohomo think tanks and institutions undermining India and Indian interests degenerates into " why don't we also do this? so what?" from the usual soypoys and simps, showing where they come from even when they admit that the side they want us so badly to ally with is engaged in this thereby undercutting their own case and argument.

 

[RocketMan]

You didn't read the "They think" before that?
The point is they are doing to try some toolkit protest in late 2023, shaheen bagh and khalistani protest were just trial runs, by now you know that Congress has whored itself out wholesale to the CIA, and Kejriwal was already an asset since 2012.
So they will try to use another toolkit protest to either boot Mudi baba out of power, or if he wins try to show him as fascis, racis, nazi etc etc by pushing him so that he has to respond with violence.

The best way to know what is the "ideal state" the (((West))) wants India in is to read their rags like BBC, NYT, WaPo with the amount of negative propaganda they push out, they want to reduce India to their own puppet state.

I see a pattern , PAAP , KHANgress , mahaTHUGbandhan third front , Cutlets & now KHALIstanis are all bought & paid for by CIA glowniggers & being groomed for an insurrection in 2024 . These traitors need to be cut down to size .

 

[Indrajit]

All is said and fine but the US must be made to understand that India will have its independence one way or the other from all others and that means energy independence, food independence, security independence, defense industry independence, etc. So if India wants to buy Iranian oil or Russian oil and US has a problem with that, US must be told to fuck off in the strongest terms. If India wants to buy Russian weapons, US can well fuck off. If India wants to sell weapons to Russia or Iran, then US can well fuck off.

There is no upside in doing an Imran Khan on these matters. The US is our biggest trading partner and while the US has largely gone along with India's reservations on many issues, they don't lack leverage . The idea is to keep the US on our side while still mostly doing what we feel necessary. Some give and take is necessary in diplomacy, if all we had to do was tell someone to f..o.., diplomacy isn't needed. Imran Khan would do.

 

[Bharatiya]

There is a youtube channel called String that talks about stuff that might seem like conspiracy theories but are likely true.

The Youtuber was also speaking about chaos that is going to unfold in 2023. He said Anti-National forces were planning something big and it will be a critical time for Bharat.

I thought he was just fear mongering for views but damn! If PFI wasn't sacked, we'd have surely seen unprecedented riots across the Nation next year.

These cockroaches turned a local Hijab issue into national and international. Led Anti-CAA and pretty sure they had a hand in Pseudo Farmer Riots.

They just proved how dangerous they are. They'd only be doing 10x, 20x larger riots before election.

Thankfully, Motabhai crushed them in time.

Even though I get the feeling that BJP isn't being iron-fisted enough a lot of times, at least they don't miss the critical targets.

 

[Bharatiya]

All is said and fine but the US must be made to understand that India will have its independence one way or the other from all others and that means energy independence, food independence, security independence, defense industry independence, etc. So if India wants to buy Iranian oil or Russian oil and US has a problem with that, US must be told to fuck off in the strongest terms. If India wants to buy Russian weapons, US can well fuck off. If India wants to sell weapons to Russia or Iran, then US can well fuck off.

Be patriotic, but level headed.

No country in the world—not even China which is the next biggest power in the world—can tell the US to F off.

If we want to do whatever we want regardless of US' sanctions, then we'll have to be strong enough. We're growing, but we're nowhere near. If we were, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Forget Defense, Economy and Oil—we aren't independent in them and won't be in this decade. Next decade? There's a good chance.

But there's something that's not certain even in next decade.

Our Tech. This is the weakest link. Even if we become independent in every other domain, we are literally nowhere in Tech independence.

Our national narratives are subject to the whims of Twitter, Facebook. We depend on Google and Youtube for most content.

With these big giants all catering to US, how can we achieve Tech independence? If we don't, how can we tell the US to F off?

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Be patriotic, but level headed.

No country in the world—not even China which is the next biggest power in the world—can tell the US to F off.

If we want to do whatever we want regardless of US' sanctions, then we'll have to be strong enough. We're growing, but we're nowhere near. If we were, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Forget Defense, Economy and Oil—we aren't independent in them and won't be in this decade. Next decade? There's a good chance.

But there's something that's not certain even in next decade.

Our Tech. This is the weakest link. Even if we become independent in every other domain, we are literally nowhere in Tech independence.

Our national narratives are subject to the whims of Twitter, Facebook. We depend on Google and Youtube for most content.

With these big giants all catering to US, how can we achieve Tech independence? If we don't, how can we tell the US to F off?

I would like to add even this forum is running on UK based platform.

 

[Blademaster]

I would like to add even this forum is running on UK based platform.

and the UK platform is running on Indian numbers and mathematics. What’s your point?

 

[Bharatiya]

and the UK platform is running on Indian numbers and mathematics. What’s your point?

...I'm assuming you're trying to joke. Anyway, our ancestors invented the numbers centuries ago but we can't use that to earn $$$. Brits invented these companies a few decades ago but they can not only earn $$, they can also exert influence.

Most of our great achievements are in the distant past while the West's are in the recent past. So, they enjoy the dividends of their fathers and grandfathers in the Tech domain.

And the original point was the prospect of India's Tech Independence or the lack of it.

 

[johnj]

Be patriotic, but level headed.

No country in the world—not even China which is the next biggest power in the world—can tell the US to F off.

If we want to do whatever we want regardless of US' sanctions, then we'll have to be strong enough. We're growing, but we're nowhere near. If we were, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Forget Defense, Economy and Oil—we aren't independent in them and won't be in this decade. Next decade? There's a good chance.

But there's something that's not certain even in next decade.

Our Tech. This is the weakest link. Even if we become independent in every other domain, we are literally nowhere in Tech independence.

Our national narratives are subject to the whims of Twitter, Facebook. We depend on Google and Youtube for most content.

With these big giants all catering to US, how can we achieve Tech independence? If we don't, how can we tell the US to F off?

India tested nuclear weapons, brought s400, spending billions to buy Russian equipment, brought/buying Russian oil. Its just our case.
There is lots of countries do the same or more.
China is US gateway to Asia & Africa, & Chinese supporting Russia blaming US.
Saying ''fuck off'' is not a issue, its common, but war / instability etc is not.
Here India is not against US giving weapons to Pakistan, but ''if US give weapons to Pak to attack India, then how India can thrust US during war''.
Why US not considering selling ah1z or engine to turkey helio in the place of f16 package, becz Pakistan need F16 to counter India.
F16 package cause a lot of issues to India[attack against su30mki], afghan/taliban, iran etc and its upto US work with all parties to avoided unwanted war.
Anyways its good, once again US involving issue of Pak/Afghan/Iran and India take advantage of the situation to increase economy & trade without spending billions to US weapons.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

and the UK platform is running on Indian numbers and mathematics. What’s your point?

The point is you are behaving like a total retard.
The point is platform is still owned by UK based company earning them hard $$$.
Our telecom infrastructure is imported from Finland, Taiwan, PRC, Sweden, US, etc. earning them hard $$$.
The OS is owned by US based company, so is the computer hardware and the list goes on.
Do you want me to continue?