India US Relations

Love Charger

चक्रवर्ती
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Yes we kinda do.. as of now the Republic of India's constitution is based on ideas borrowed from US constitution. We have almost similar structure of governance as in the US unless tomorrow some Virat type gets up changes the Contitution and declare India as official Hindu Rastra..
Similar ? Similar?
Similar? Lol major parts are from GoI act of 1935
We are quasi federal, there if needed indian state cam turn into a unitary state overnight
Nothing of that sort in America
Governor here is sent by the central while in usa state Governor are elected by people
We don't allow dual citizen ship while usa does amd mnay more things
 

Hari Sud

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Yes we kinda do.. as of now the Republic of India's constitution is based on ideas borrowed from US constitution. We have almost similar structure of governance as in the US unless tomorrow some Virat type gets up changes the Contitution and declare India as official Hindu Rastra..
Sir, you have said a lot in all your posts. Much of it is defence of American policy. Just try and look at the people who will no reason of theirs in India become victims of American policies. Look it from their angle. Sooner than later, it will change. India needs respect and that India is going to get even if when US follows its dual policies in South Asia. Watch in next ten years things change and American negative reporters of the Washington Post and The New York Times are ejected out.
 

Bharatiya

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Exactly..lot of folks on DFI have this urge to blame US for everything on US-India Relationship, and many have this simping attitude for Russia..as if they are our true friends. Newsflash : Nobody is a true in Geopolitics.
There are more in Indian in US working and sending money back to India after MiddleEast. India has a trade surplus to US , our volume of trade is way higher to US.
If one needs to read Russia's mind then go on to their geopolitics blogs ( especially run by Alexander Dugin) and see how they slowly slowly entertaining the Pakistanis.
US Pentagon has given an unescorted access to Indian Defence folks for joint development on various projects. When did Russia or Soviet Russia ever did that.
Both India & US are democracies where we always have noise makers and some haters. But deep down the line both countries have a very deep relationship and shared values.
What US has given to Pakistan is peanuts ...sure the F-16s are being upgraded, but in turn India has up to date Apaches, Globemasters , all kinds of defence subsystems from US/Israel as well as F/18 hornet naval version and Predator Drones for sale on pipeline.

Pakistan gets all this special treatment is due to the fact they have strong lobbying power in DC and now how to seduce/influence the DC Lawmakers, meanwhile the IFS Babus have no personality skills to make friends in DC and get stuff in our favor. As a result, you Congressman/woman always saying stuff on Kashmir or "Global Hindutva Movement" (LMAO)
Hence although on technical level both US-India need each other, on soft power we loose ( NYT, CNN putting negative press on us).. Get your lobby strong and you will hear good things coming out of US Press etc on India.
Most people here on DFI are of the opinion that fu*k USA, fu*k EU, fu*k UK, fu*k Russia, f*ck China and Pakistan especially hard and only be pro-India.
So you can harp on about some imaginary "shared values" that we share with USA, I see none. Anglo-Saxons are the civilizational enemy of Bharat. So kindly don't bring your America simping to this forum. We don't want shared values with the land of the woke gender-confused morons.
.
If you think lobbying can work in your favour in USA, think again: China tried that route and failed. I don't get how thick-headed one has to be to not see that we are next on USA's list after its done with China.
.
I am not saying blame USA for everything, but just because we got to tolerate them till we can compete directly with them doesn't mean we should accept some nonsense about "shared values" that they will in turn then use as a weapon to strangle our civilizational ethos.

There is no need to get emotional about what the US is doing. It's pure geopolitics. What I'm going to say is very basic stuff, but seeing the ongoing discussion, I felt the need to say them anyway.

A) US & Pakistan:

They can't push Pakistan off the cliff. They will keep it alive, at least on the ventilator.

It's something we can't seem to change right now. And I don't think we should worry much about Pakistan at this stage. We aren't competing with Pakistan directly anymore. Instead, the operation regarding Pakistan should be in destabilizing its society and keeping its economy from ever rising.

Even if Pakistan tries to be adventurous, they'll be shown their place. It'll also be a good show of force for India abroad and more importantly, within the country. Imo, a sharp conflict or two will erode the sickfuck Gandhianism and push the public towards more assertiveness.

B) US & China:

We should make the best use of this conflict to improve our hard capabilities. Forget "Friendships", forget "historical ties", do everything possible to get the best out of this situation.

As long as the US doesn't shake its hands with China, we'd be in a good position to extract benefits out of this situation for at least a decade.

C) US & India:

Don't be butthurt when US does something against India. US is always a partner, never an ally. (It'd be best if we don't view any country as an ally, but just as conditional partners: including Russia.)

1. US propagates anti-India narratives.
2. US takes anti-India actions.

1. US propagates anti-India narratives:
This must be solved as a three-part problem.

A) US (or larger western narrative) in India:
Cut the funding as much as possible. But the ecosystem just won't vanish. It's too entrenched.

So, what we should instead focus more is building a solid national ecosystem. Where are our think tanks? Where are our intellectuals? Where is the strong media presence? A virtuous cycle should form to create an ecosystem free of western or arabic influence.

The problem we always had was a hostile ecosystem which openly opposed national interests. What did this ecosystem even have to fight against? A few people at most. It's only after Social Media became big in India that there is an active pushback.

But this isn't enough. We can't always keep defending. Be aggressive. We can't completely stop US funding. But we surely can render it mostly useless.

This is something China did. It suppressed US wherever it could. Where it couldn't, it blunted US' strength.

For us, a good example is Rahul Gandhi. He's gaslighted so much (rightfully so), that no matter what he says or how much he is funded, most people don't even trust him.

This is the kind of work that needs to be done. But on a much larger scale and in a very systematic manner.

Once we control the narrative in our own land, we'll have won half the battle.

B) US (or larger western narrative) in Non-Western Nations:

Either expand the outreach of our homebuilt media or build a strong propaganda machine. It's unfortunate that the even the non-western world views India predominantly through western lens.

We haven't managed our public image properly. Thanks to the western media's narratives, India is more associated with poverty, rape and caste than progress.

Something like hosting an Olympics is enough to flip the impression. It's just an example and we don't necessarily have to do it.

C) US (or larger western narrative) in US:

This can either be easy mode or hard mode depending on how we choose to play.

If our Media can build trust with the populace of these countries, then nothing can stop them from building a strong foothold there and pushing our narratives.

Almost 50% of WION's viewers are not from India. So, it's possible.

This will cost a lot of money unless we innovate the heck out of it. Even then, this will take at least 5 years to yield substantial results.

Lobbying is a must. We need to seriously up our game here.

US will always try to damage India, Pakistan or not. But India must use this opportune time to extract as many benefits as it can. This doesn't mean we can simply ask for benefits. Such proposals won't fly and even if they do, they won't last.

Create mutually beneficial deals. Use them to slowly gain leverage over US—compared to the almost non-existent leverage we currently have. Design the deals so that if US ever tries to sanction, it'll be mutually destructive.

Case in point, China.

And on the other hand, slowly start covert aggression against US.

US will either win against China or lose. But in either case, its relationship with India will undergo a permanent shift once the decisive event happens.

That is a decade or two away. Before that, we need to start planting the seeds to either fight against US or gain some form of leverage over it.

And we also need to build international clout for it.

Saudi has Wahabism and Mosques. China has BRI.

What do we have?

--- --- ---

Of course, Indian Government might already be doing all of the above to some degree (hopefully).

TL;DR: Ignore Pakistan, Use US to grow our capabilities and prepare for a long race with China and US.
 

johnj

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Exactly..lot of folks on DFI have this urge to blame US for everything on US-India Relationship, and many have this simping attitude for Russia..as if they are our true friends. Newsflash : Nobody is a true in Geopolitics.
There are more in Indian in US working and sending money back to India after MiddleEast. India has a trade surplus to US , our volume of trade is way higher to US.
If one needs to read Russia's mind then go on to their geopolitics blogs ( especially run by Alexander Dugin) and see how they slowly slowly entertaining the Pakistanis.
US Pentagon has given an unescorted access to Indian Defence folks for joint development on various projects. When did Russia or Soviet Russia ever did that.
Both India & US are democracies where we always have noise makers and some haters. But deep down the line both countries have a very deep relationship and shared values.
What US has given to Pakistan is peanuts ...sure the F-16s are being upgraded, but in turn India has up to date Apaches, Globemasters , all kinds of defence subsystems from US/Israel as well as F/18 hornet naval version and Predator Drones for sale on pipeline.

Pakistan gets all this special treatment is due to the fact they have strong lobbying power in DC and now how to seduce/influence the DC Lawmakers, meanwhile the IFS Babus have no personality skills to make friends in DC and get stuff in our favor. As a result, you Congressman/woman always saying stuff on Kashmir or "Global Hindutva Movement" (LMAO)
Hence although on technical level both US-India need each other, on soft power we loose ( NYT, CNN putting negative press on us).. Get your lobby strong and you will hear good things coming out of US Press etc on India.
Till date US provided zero tech to India and Russia/USSR is the backbone & lifeline of defence industry followed by Israel.
Its true Indian lobbying too weak compared to Pak/China etc, but US alone control the entire world. [450 mil $ f16 package not a big thing for India, but for US, this deal help China to improve relationship with India & increase the strength of Indo-Russian relationship, regain some defence market loosing due to US. Its a good news for Israel/France/Russia/China etc also & bad news for QUAD, and if Israel/ France/ Russia/ Italy plays cards/lobby well they can bring down new US weapons purchase to minimum and eventually to zero. US, China & Pakistan are the enemies of India, and USSR an allay. French, Russia, Israel, Italy etc friends with benefits. US and India trying to find a way to reduce enmity with little success & 20 billion $ weapons purchase till date is lobbing.
 

johnj

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There is no need to get emotional about what the US is doing. It's pure geopolitics. What I'm going to say is very basic stuff, but seeing the ongoing discussion, I felt the need to say them anyway.

A) US & Pakistan:

They can't push Pakistan off the cliff. They will keep it alive, at least on the ventilator.

It's something we can't seem to change right now. And I don't think we should worry much about Pakistan at this stage. We aren't competing with Pakistan directly anymore. Instead, the operation regarding Pakistan should be in destabilizing its society and keeping its economy from ever rising.

Even if Pakistan tries to be adventurous, they'll be shown their place. It'll also be a good show of force for India abroad and more importantly, within the country. Imo, a sharp conflict or two will erode the sickfuck Gandhianism and push the public towards more assertiveness.

B) US & China:

We should make the best use of this conflict to improve our hard capabilities. Forget "Friendships", forget "historical ties", do everything possible to get the best out of this situation.

As long as the US doesn't shake its hands with China, we'd be in a good position to extract benefits out of this situation for at least a decade.

C) US & India:

Don't be butthurt when US does something against India. US is always a partner, never an ally. (It'd be best if we don't view any country as an ally, but just as conditional partners: including Russia.)

1. US propagates anti-India narratives.
2. US takes anti-India actions.

1. US propagates anti-India narratives:
This must be solved as a three-part problem.

A) US (or larger western narrative) in India:
Cut the funding as much as possible. But the ecosystem just won't vanish. It's too entrenched.

So, what we should instead focus more is building a solid national ecosystem. Where are our think tanks? Where are our intellectuals? Where is the strong media presence? A virtuous cycle should form to create an ecosystem free of western or arabic influence.

The problem we always had was a hostile ecosystem which openly opposed national interests. What did this ecosystem even have to fight against? A few people at most. It's only after Social Media became big in India that there is an active pushback.

But this isn't enough. We can't always keep defending. Be aggressive. We can't completely stop US funding. But we surely can render it mostly useless.

This is something China did. It suppressed US wherever it could. Where it couldn't, it blunted US' strength.

For us, a good example is Rahul Gandhi. He's gaslighted so much (rightfully so), that no matter what he says or how much he is funded, most people don't even trust him.

This is the kind of work that needs to be done. But on a much larger scale and in a very systematic manner.

Once we control the narrative in our own land, we'll have won half the battle.

B) US (or larger western narrative) in Non-Western Nations:

Either expand the outreach of our homebuilt media or build a strong propaganda machine. It's unfortunate that the even the non-western world views India predominantly through western lens.

We haven't managed our public image properly. Thanks to the western media's narratives, India is more associated with poverty, rape and caste than progress.

Something like hosting an Olympics is enough to flip the impression. It's just an example and we don't necessarily have to do it.

C) US (or larger western narrative) in US:

This can either be easy mode or hard mode depending on how we choose to play.

If our Media can build trust with the populace of these countries, then nothing can stop them from building a strong foothold there and pushing our narratives.

Almost 50% of WION's viewers are not from India. So, it's possible.

This will cost a lot of money unless we innovate the heck out of it. Even then, this will take at least 5 years to yield substantial results.

Lobbying is a must. We need to seriously up our game here.

US will always try to damage India, Pakistan or not. But India must use this opportune time to extract as many benefits as it can. This doesn't mean we can simply ask for benefits. Such proposals won't fly and even if they do, they won't last.

Create mutually beneficial deals. Use them to slowly gain leverage over US—compared to the almost non-existent leverage we currently have. Design the deals so that if US ever tries to sanction, it'll be mutually destructive.

Case in point, China.

And on the other hand, slowly start covert aggression against US.

US will either win against China or lose. But in either case, its relationship with India will undergo a permanent shift once the decisive event happens.

That is a decade or two away. Before that, we need to start planting the seeds to either fight against US or gain some form of leverage over it.

And we also need to build international clout for it.

Saudi has Wahabism and Mosques. China has BRI.

What do we have?

--- --- ---

Of course, Indian Government might already be doing all of the above to some degree (hopefully).

TL;DR: Ignore Pakistan, Use US to grow our capabilities and prepare for a long race with China and US.
You write an essay, missing the main point - WAR.
Pak never consider attacking India using Chinese junk, but they will using US weapons.
India know balakot counter strike - now US upgrading Pak F16 why ? and what happened to Ukraine. ''Not fooling anybody'' - said by Jaishankar, becz he & India knows F16 actual purpose, to attack India. If US unable to provide satisfying statement, India have no choice, but to upgraded existing fighter jets, reconsider su57, jv with Safran.
Anyways its a good news to restarting Indo-US relationship without military angle [weapon purchase] and to focus on make in India, trade, fdi etc improving Indian economy & hdi neglecting politics.
 

Okabe Rintarou

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There is no need to get emotional about what the US is doing. It's pure geopolitics. What I'm going to say is very basic stuff, but seeing the ongoing discussion, I felt the need to say them anyway.

A) US & Pakistan:

They can't push Pakistan off the cliff. They will keep it alive, at least on the ventilator.

It's something we can't seem to change right now. And I don't think we should worry much about Pakistan at this stage. We aren't competing with Pakistan directly anymore. Instead, the operation regarding Pakistan should be in destabilizing its society and keeping its economy from ever rising.

Even if Pakistan tries to be adventurous, they'll be shown their place. It'll also be a good show of force for India abroad and more importantly, within the country. Imo, a sharp conflict or two will erode the sickfuck Gandhianism and push the public towards more assertiveness.

B) US & China:

We should make the best use of this conflict to improve our hard capabilities. Forget "Friendships", forget "historical ties", do everything possible to get the best out of this situation.

As long as the US doesn't shake its hands with China, we'd be in a good position to extract benefits out of this situation for at least a decade.

C) US & India:

Don't be butthurt when US does something against India. US is always a partner, never an ally. (It'd be best if we don't view any country as an ally, but just as conditional partners: including Russia.)

1. US propagates anti-India narratives.
2. US takes anti-India actions.

1. US propagates anti-India narratives:
This must be solved as a three-part problem.

A) US (or larger western narrative) in India:
Cut the funding as much as possible. But the ecosystem just won't vanish. It's too entrenched.

So, what we should instead focus more is building a solid national ecosystem. Where are our think tanks? Where are our intellectuals? Where is the strong media presence? A virtuous cycle should form to create an ecosystem free of western or arabic influence.

The problem we always had was a hostile ecosystem which openly opposed national interests. What did this ecosystem even have to fight against? A few people at most. It's only after Social Media became big in India that there is an active pushback.

But this isn't enough. We can't always keep defending. Be aggressive. We can't completely stop US funding. But we surely can render it mostly useless.

This is something China did. It suppressed US wherever it could. Where it couldn't, it blunted US' strength.

For us, a good example is Rahul Gandhi. He's gaslighted so much (rightfully so), that no matter what he says or how much he is funded, most people don't even trust him.

This is the kind of work that needs to be done. But on a much larger scale and in a very systematic manner.

Once we control the narrative in our own land, we'll have won half the battle.

B) US (or larger western narrative) in Non-Western Nations:

Either expand the outreach of our homebuilt media or build a strong propaganda machine. It's unfortunate that the even the non-western world views India predominantly through western lens.

We haven't managed our public image properly. Thanks to the western media's narratives, India is more associated with poverty, rape and caste than progress.

Something like hosting an Olympics is enough to flip the impression. It's just an example and we don't necessarily have to do it.

C) US (or larger western narrative) in US:

This can either be easy mode or hard mode depending on how we choose to play.

If our Media can build trust with the populace of these countries, then nothing can stop them from building a strong foothold there and pushing our narratives.

Almost 50% of WION's viewers are not from India. So, it's possible.

This will cost a lot of money unless we innovate the heck out of it. Even then, this will take at least 5 years to yield substantial results.

Lobbying is a must. We need to seriously up our game here.

US will always try to damage India, Pakistan or not. But India must use this opportune time to extract as many benefits as it can. This doesn't mean we can simply ask for benefits. Such proposals won't fly and even if they do, they won't last.

Create mutually beneficial deals. Use them to slowly gain leverage over US—compared to the almost non-existent leverage we currently have. Design the deals so that if US ever tries to sanction, it'll be mutually destructive.

Case in point, China.

And on the other hand, slowly start covert aggression against US.

US will either win against China or lose. But in either case, its relationship with India will undergo a permanent shift once the decisive event happens.

That is a decade or two away. Before that, we need to start planting the seeds to either fight against US or gain some form of leverage over it.

And we also need to build international clout for it.

Saudi has Wahabism and Mosques. China has BRI.

What do we have?

--- --- ---

Of course, Indian Government might already be doing all of the above to some degree (hopefully).

TL;DR: Ignore Pakistan, Use US to grow our capabilities and prepare for a long race with China and US.
Agree with everything you said. And I said the same thing. Only thing that ticked me off was @Dr_Deep 's insistence that we must believe that we have some "shared values" with USA.

About your point on "planting the seeds to either fight against US or gain some form of leverage over it."
I'd say we should pick the sub-national approach they are picking with us. First identify interest groups within USA that are likely to remain permanently aligned with and those are that likely to remain permanently aligned against India. WTO disputes give us some pointers about this.

No expert in this but I thing pharmaceutical sector, agriculture sector and defence industrial sector are American interest groups that will remain a long term thorn for us. If we can somehow figure out how to create lasting relationships by removing contentious issues with them, then we should do that while weighing how it affects our own strategic goals. If no compromise can be reached, we can join in the chorus of the lobby groups that lobby against these sector in the US.

For interest groups that have a permanent alignment with Indian interests, such as anti-China groups, we should look at developing a long lasting relationship.

For interest groups that simply will never be aligned with India (woke crowd, etc), we need to actively work to destroy them.

One analysis we need is how and why China is failing at the lobbying game in USA despite making such a concerted effort.

But all these points aside, here comes the big question: Who will do all this for us? GoI doesn't have the policy to do this formally. We can't have an institutionalized, formal system that focuses on planning and then lobbying in USA and deciding on the interest groups question. What we need is an informal setup and I have no idea how to achieve that even though we know that the diaspora, businesses and some politicians are likely to be the stakeholders in such a setup. And informal setup means there can be a tendency in our own setup of multiple Indian interest groups forming, each with their own agenda that may or may not be aligned with our larger national agenda. What can we do to ensure that these Indian interest groups won't be lobbying against each other or against India in USA? That they will give national goals precedence? We are not China, so our unification of our efforts at lobbying would be one of the big challenges. I would say R&AW, but I don't think they are built like that.
 

Dr_Deep

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Till date US provided zero tech to India and Russia/USSR is the backbone & lifeline of defence industry followed by Israel.
Its true Indian lobbying too weak compared to Pak/China etc, but US alone control the entire world. [450 mil $ f16 package not a big thing for India, but for US, this deal help China to improve relationship with India & increase the strength of Indo-Russian relationship, regain some defence market loosing due to US. Its a good news for Israel/France/Russia/China etc also & bad news for QUAD, and if Israel/ France/ Russia/ Italy plays cards/lobby well they can bring down new US weapons purchase to minimum and eventually to zero. US, China & Pakistan are the enemies of India, and USSR an allay. French, Russia, Israel, Italy etc friends with benefits. US and India trying to find a way to reduce enmity with little success & 20 billion $ weapons purchase till date is lobbing.
Lol..if you think Israel gave India all those weapons without US's acknowledgement then you are naive.. Whole of Israel defense establisment is highly coupled with US DoD and every year Israel get around $100 billion in military aid from Uncle Sam..
Also if you think US has provided zero tech to India then you are again wrong. The LCA fighter jets Programme got a decent amount of help from US companies especially (Lockheed Martin & GE) in the 80's after Late Indira and her Son Rajiv Gandhi started thawing relationship with the US. There was brief gap due to sanctions imposed by Clinton Admin due 98 nuclear blast as well as Kargil war. But thing started opening up in 2002 when US Sectary of Defense Rumsfeld visited India to start laying the ground work of Indo-US Civil Nuclear Program along with other technical cooperation. I can go on with provided tons of organizational as well as technical cooperation between US & India but I just hat typing all that at the moment.
Now does US screws over its own allies ? Yes it does in order to maintain Military & technical supremacy ( For eg: Israel used to have a fighter jet program, but the US went out of its way to sabotage that in order to keep the sales of F-16s to IAF.
The best path for India is to start development its own MIC especially with the help Indian Companies etc. Indian Defence Organization should focus on quality R&D, reduce its staff, outsource lot of manufacturing to defence manufacturers like TATA & Kalyani while maintaining the IPs to its self. DARPA of USA and DRDO of India have almost similar budget but DARPA has half the staff of DRDO since unlike DRDO it doesn't do manufacturing, maintenance etc but instead hires the best minds to do important Weapons platform development and contract out the test & simulation as well as manufacturing to other companies.
This is my take, or maybe I am wrong and you guys know more than me..
 

asaffronladoftherisingsun

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Exactly..lot of folks on DFI have this urge to blame US for everything on US-India Relationship, and many have this simping attitude for Russia..as if they are our true friends. Newsflash : Nobody is a true in Geopolitics.
There are more in Indian in US working and sending money back to India after MiddleEast. India has a trade surplus to US , our volume of trade is way higher to US.
If one needs to read Russia's mind then go on to their geopolitics blogs ( especially run by Alexander Dugin) and see how they slowly slowly entertaining the Pakistanis.
US Pentagon has given an unescorted access to Indian Defence folks for joint development on various projects. When did Russia or Soviet Russia ever did that.
Both India & US are democracies where we always have noise makers and some haters. But deep down the line both countries have a very deep relationship and shared values.
What US has given to Pakistan is peanuts ...sure the F-16s are being upgraded, but in turn India has up to date Apaches, Globemasters , all kinds of defence subsystems from US/Israel as well as F/18 hornet naval version and Predator Drones for sale on pipeline.

Pakistan gets all this special treatment is due to the fact they have strong lobbying power in DC and now how to seduce/influence the DC Lawmakers, meanwhile the IFS Babus have no personality skills to make friends in DC and get stuff in our favor. As a result, you Congressman/woman always saying stuff on Kashmir or "Global Hindutva Movement" (LMAO)
Hence although on technical level both US-India need each other, on soft power we loose ( NYT, CNN putting negative press on us).. Get your lobby strong and you will hear good things coming out of US Press etc on India.
Now see whatever you have posted is factually wrong on many levels.

 

HitmanBlood

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Exactly..lot of folks on DFI have this urge to blame US for everything on US-India Relationship,
So whome else to blame in bilateral relationship. Its either India's fault or America's fault. We can't blame third party like Russia.

Lets say India is at fault 100%, in this case can you point out how and when India wronged USA? When did India conducted freedom of navigation exercise in gulf of Mexico? When did India sent state sponsered Hindu missionaries to convert entire states in US into Hinduism and started succession movements? When did India ever criticised America's internal or even foreign policy?

Now typical CNN watching brown coolies will say that, The evil India is buying some cheap oil from USA's enemy Russia and committed a great act of betrayal to Gora Master. But same brown coolie will conveniently forget direct military support to India's enemy Pakistan by same Gora Sahibs of USA.

There are more in Indian in US working and sending money back to India after MiddleEast. India has a trade surplus to US , our volume of trade is way higher to US.
So what? We should completely submit to USA's whims because some brown skinned people are working there? By this logic India should completely submit to Islam because there are so many Indians working in gulf countries and we also have trade surplus with lot of them.

Those Indians working there are there because US needs them. They are contributing far greater to US economy compared to what they are sending back in India as remittance. So its America's intrest to keep the flow of talented Indians working there. They are the real beneficiaries.

There are also plenty of Chinese in USA. I don't see CCP bending over to USA. Same with Russians. Care to explain why this bending over only applies to India?

US Pentagon has given an unescorted access to Indian Defence folks for joint development on various projects. When did Russia or Soviet Russia ever did that.
You have no idea about defence cooperation between USSR and India. Do you? Please google this subject. This topic is so deep, entire book can be written on Soviet India defence cooperation.

On topic of unescorted access in US. Basically salesman is letting customer see the inventory. That's what it means. Nothing more.

Both India & US are democracies where we always have noise makers and some haters. But deep down the line both countries have a very deep relationship and shared values.
But but... as per the wisdom of American Gora Sahibs India isn't a democracy but rather a Hindu facist dictatorship with sham elections.

On a serious note. International relations are not based on shared values but shared interests. This is why America has good relationship with GCC countries. This is why America bends over backwards and accepts One China policy.

What US has given to Pakistan is peanuts ...
Peanuts??? US has given Pakistan everything Pakis ever asked to keep strategic balance against India. Americans even looked the other way when China was proliferating Nuclear weapons to Pakistan in full knowledge of CIA. Instead American continued giving military and economic assistance to Pakistan just to keep India in check.

If it wasn't for India's massive economic and technological rise, India would still be struggling to secure itself from Pakistan. All thanks to Uncle Sam.

Pakistan gets all this special treatment is due to the fact they have strong lobbying power in DC and now how to seduce/influence the DC Lawmakers,
So this amazing democracy country of yours is openly taking bribes and building their foreign policy accordingly? What kind of democracy is this? In a democracy gov should work for their own citizens, not some foreign bribe givers.

You want India to submit to the will of such corrupt country that can be bought by anybody with few dollars? This argument right here raises serious questions on America's reliability as an ally.

meanwhile the IFS Babus have no personality skills to make friends in DC and get stuff in our favor.
You mean like this IFS Babu

images.jpeg



As a result, you Congressman/woman always saying stuff on Kashmir or "Global Hindutva Movement" (LMAO)
Let me give you a little nuanced view on ideology of American deep state and their approach towards India in last 75 years.

Democrats belive in oppression of Muslims by various countries/religions. This mentality came from liberal collage professors guilt tripping white students into thinking that Muslims are victims of oppression during Bush's war on terror. This comes straight from Marxist theory of victims fighting against their oppressors. American liberal media and woke Hollywood also helped forming people's opinions regarding Muslims.

On conservative side, they belive in supremacy of Abrahamic religion over idol worshiping Indians. This is why historically they supported Pakistan against India and glorified Mugal rule in India as it validated their personal bias.

So its not just few corrupt congress people but rather an ideological level thinking in USA.

Hence although on technical level both US-India need each other,
If USA and India both need eachother, shouldn't Americans start doing lobbying in India?

If Americans need India then they too should respect India's concerns especially on Pakistan. Otherwise don't expect one sided effort from India.

on soft power we loose ( NYT, CNN putting negative press on us).. Get your lobby strong and you will hear good things coming out of US Press etc on India.
So you are saying that to get goodwill of USA we have to bribe them? Lets say we bribe them. What is guarantee that they will not take bribes from other clients?

When it comes to bribery, China has 6 times bigger economy they can spend a lot more on lobbying then India. How do you expect India to match that?

This bribe giving and favor taking strategy would be equal to throwing money and expact loyalty from a prostitute. We are not interested in such prostitute counties that sell themselves to highest bidders.
 
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Tiwariji

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Considering everything from economy , defence , people , energy , geopolitical situation . My verdict is india ll never be in a anti western camp . Neither india ll be in a anti Russian camp . We have skin in this game .
 

HitmanBlood

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Considering everything from economy , defence , people , energy , geopolitical situation . My verdict is india ll never be in a anti western camp . Neither india ll be in a anti Russian camp . We have skin in this game .
This is Indian perspective. This is how India wants to be but it may not be agreed by other side. America can throw India out of their camp and Russia too can ditch India to join Chinese camp.

The world of geopolitics is full of uncertainties. The only assurance is our own strength.
 

Tiwariji

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This is Indian perspective. This is how India wants to be but it may not be agreed by other side. America can throw India out of their camp and Russia too can ditch India to join Chinese camp.

The world of geopolitics is full of uncertainties. The only assurance is our own strength.
India too valuable , too big to be ditched . There is importance with respect to market , geography , future prospects . Our neutrality may not be permanent . Things might change in 2/3 decades . So it's up to them how they engage .
 

Tiwariji

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You will be surprised to know how many times India was ditched in the past.
We were weak . Pakistan used to be richer than us . There was a time USA could kill millions in india simply by banning export of wheat . We are no more same . And it was validated by nuclear treaty. And as China rises , it has changed the geopolitical situation .
 

Tiwariji

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We were weak . Pakistan used to be richer than us . There was a time USA could kill millions in india simply by banning export of wheat . We are no more same . And it was validated by nuclear treaty. And as China rises , it has changed the geopolitical situation .
And I doubt there is something called russian led world order against west anymore as we move forward . It ll be china led world order against west . So I am afraid we might not even have a choice in this regard . At best we ll engage Russia at individual level and keep the diverging forces some what less hostile , manageable towards our interest .
 

Bharatiya

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You write an essay, missing the main point - WAR.
Pak never consider attacking India using Chinese junk, but they will using US weapons.
India know balakot counter strike - now US upgrading Pak F16 why ? and what happened to Ukraine. ''Not fooling anybody'' - said by Jaishankar, becz he & India knows F16 actual purpose, to attack India. If US unable to provide satisfying statement, India have no choice, but to upgraded existing fighter jets, reconsider su57, jv with Safran.
Anyways its a good news to restarting Indo-US relationship without military angle [weapon purchase] and to focus on make in India, trade, fdi etc improving Indian economy & hdi neglecting politics.
War? You mean a small clash? When was the last time we had a proper war with Pakistan? More than two decades ago.

F16 are of course given to help Pakistan keep India in check. But Pakistan won't go out of its way to start a war with India. That time has long passed. They just want to maintain parity and shoot us down if we do another Balkot.

And let's say just they did attack, small or large scale. IAF is more than capable of finishing them off.

What's more, this situation will serve as a good example for GOI in viewing US in the context of Pakistan. GOI will be reluctant to create any military dependency on US. This event will likely increase the push for indigenization.

US will keep giving Pakistan the upgrades and aid only before it gets too costly economically and diplomatically. I don't get the angst against US.

US wants to maintain control over Indian Subcontinent, just like every other region. Its not Amercia if it doesn't try to "Balance" India.

We should just make the best use of the situation and build up our capabilities through US dealings as much as we can.

--- --- ---

So whome else to blame in bilateral relationship. Its either India's fault or America's fault. We can't blame third party like Russia.

Lets say India is at fault 100%, in this case can you point out how and when India wronged USA? When did India conducted freedom of navigation exercise in gulf of Mexico? When did India sent state sponsered Hindu missionaries to convert entire states in US into Hinduism and started succession movements? When did India ever criticised America's internal or even foreign policy?

Now typical CNN watching brown coolies will say that, The evil India is buying some cheap oil from USA's enemy Russia and committed a great act of betrayal to Gora Master. But same brown coolie will conveniently forget direct military support to India's enemy Pakistan by same Gora Sahibs of USA.


So what? We should completely submit to USA's whims because some brown skinned people are working there? By this logic India should completely submit to Islam because there are so many Indians working in gulf countries and we also have trade surplus with lot of them.

Those Indians working there are there because US needs them. They are contributing far greater to US economy compared to what they are sending back in India as remittance. So its America's intrest to keep the flow of talented Indians working there. They are the real beneficiaries.

There are also plenty of Chinese in USA. I don't see CCP bending over to USA. Same with Russians. Care to explain why this bending over only applies to India?


You have no idea about defence cooperation between USSR and India. Do you? Please google this subject. This topic is so deep, entire book can be written on Soviet India defence cooperation.

On topic of unescorted access in US. Basically salesman is letting customer see the inventory. That's what it means. Nothing more.


But but... as per the wisdom of American Gora Sahibs India isn't a democracy but rather a Hindu facist dictatorship with sham elections.

On a serious note. International relations are not based on shared values but shared interests. This is why America has good relationship with GCC countries. This is why America bends over backwards and accepts One China policy.


Peanuts??? US has given Pakistan everything Pakis ever asked to keep strategic balance against India. Americans even looked the other way when China was proliferating Nuclear weapons to Pakistan in full knowledge of CIA. Instead American continued giving military and economic assistance to Pakistan just to keep India in check.

If it wasn't for India's massive economic and technological rise, India would still be struggling to secure itself from Pakistan. All thanks to Uncle Sam.


So this amazing democracy country of yours is openly taking bribes and building their foreign policy accordingly? What kind of democracy is this? In a democracy gov should work for their own citizens, not some foreign bribe givers.

You want India to submit to the will of such corrupt country that can be bought by anybody with few dollars? This argument right here raises serious questions on America's reliability as an ally.



You mean like this IFS Babu

View attachment 173465



Let me give you a little nuanced view on ideology of American deep state and their approach towards India in last 75 years.

Democrats belive in oppression of Muslims by various countries/religions. This mentality came from liberal collage professors guilt tripping white students into thinking that Muslims are victims of oppression during Bush's war on terror. This comes straight from Marxist theory of victims fighting against their oppressors. American liberal media and woke Hollywood also helped forming people's opinions regarding Muslims.

On conservative side, they belive in supremacy of Abrahamic religion over idol worshiping Indians. This is why historically they supported Pakistan against India and glorified Mugal rule in India as it validated their personal bias.

So its not just few corrupt congress people but rather an ideological level thinking in USA.


If USA and India both need eachother, shouldn't Americans start doing lobbying in India?

If Americans need India then they too should respect India's concerns especially on Pakistan. Otherwise don't expect one sided effort from India.


So you are saying that to get goodwill of USA we have to bribe them? Lets say we bribe them. What is guarantee that they will not take bribes from other clients?

When it comes to bribery, China has 6 times bigger economy they can spend a lot more on lobbying then India. How do you expect India to match that?

This bribe giving and favor taking strategy would be equal to throwing money and expact loyalty from a prostitute. We are not interested in such prostitute counties that sell themselves to highest bidders.

There is a lot of US hate in this thread.

It is perfectly justified. Yes, it is US that is being Anti-India, not India being anti-US. Morally, US shouldn't do be doing this and that's why our people are getting pissed.

But International politics don't speak morality or loyalty, they speak interests.

It is in Amercia's hegemonic interests to keep supporting Paki to keep India off balance. It's a fact. America was, is and will vying for control over the Subcontinent.

Now is not the time for a showdown, but to use this enemy against the other. Like US intervening in Nepal against China. Or US wrestling with China in Pakistan. If we're losing ground against China in a certain neighbor, pull in US.

This is a risky approach since we'll be ceding space to US and China and likely become minor actor.

But it's in our interests to keep the neighbors tussled between US and China than a fully US or China leaning nation. Once we built up some solid capabilities, we can regain the space occupied by both US and China.

As the immediate neighbor, we can do it even with less economic and military prowess visa vis US/China.

Imo, GOI is already doing this to a certain extent.

What is missing imo is actually anti-US activity from India. We need to covert, but active in this. Even allies send spies to each other. India should start targeting US where it can without appearing hostile. Go offensive. It can't be one-sided anymore.

TL;DR: US will alway be anti-India. But it's more anti-China now than anti-India and we should use the situation instead of expecting good behavior from US.
 

Rassil Krishnan

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If the delegates are pushing the agenda in India then its the failure of 56 inch to stop them. Even a small nation like Singapore which is btw a big US Ally doesnt tolerate this kind of BS. The wokeness in the US is hitting a pendulum swing...the Republicans will never accept it, the Supreme Court Judges are all conservative guys, after abortion they are now looking to make Gay Marriage illegal again.
CANZUK-USA alliance is stronger because CANZUK basically accepted the subservient position in the relationship where USA is term dictator.
I am not USA simping but since I live and work in USA I can talk a bit more of the ground realities. There are numerous times I have talked back against the Anglo-Saxons when they try to talk down on the Indians but then unnecessary hating also doesnt do us good.
USA is not dharmic land , yes but also in USA the Hindu temples are out of govt control. And we do have some very beautiful temples in the States. Meanwhile, in the real dharmic land the govt bends over backward to appease the Adharmics who are hell bent on killing or converting us..
they are doing this on an institutional level and they are pushing this through various systems and organizations and NGOs.this is when officially we are on their side against china.now imagine if we were neutral.

I can't trace constant russian attempts to destroy our very civiliation and culture,atmost they will influence opinion on some current events.but US keeps trying to meddle wherever they can and you want us to like them.

And please,i don't see any chance of wokeness receding completely even if donald trump gets elected,only thing i see is a civil war happening because like it or not wokeness has replaced the religion for a not insignificant proportion of americans and westerners in general,including the so called minorities.so expect attempts constantly from the US side to undermine us.

Let us be frank,our culture and civilization and our genes are what we are ultimately defending not our GDP.that is a means to and end.The US attacks that directly.
 

Tiwariji

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@HitmanBlood "Let's hate west and be against them " is trendy and based . I get it . But should it be against our interest . Is China going to welcome us with sonpapdi after that .. We have nothing to gain here .
 

Okabe Rintarou

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War? You mean a small clash? When was the last time we had a proper war with Pakistan? More than two decades ago.
We need to get out of this mindset that "war is a thing of the past". No self-respecting country that wants to have a sovereign, independent stance on the global high table takes this view.
COAS said this recently:-

Lessons from Russo-Ukrainian war:-
  • Need to contextualize lessons from that war before applying in our forces, instead of blindly aping.
  • Hypothesis that "conventional war is a thing of the past" has been proven wrong.
  • Hypothesis that "future wars will be swift and short" has been proven wrong.
  • Advent of drones does not mean heavy platforms like tank and artillery have become obsolete.
  • Lessons learnt for non-contact warfare including info-war, cyber-war, etc (not detailed reply.....but we know Gen Rawat talked about a non-contact warfare doctrine in the works)
  • Global supply chain disruption teaches need for self-reliance.
 

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