India US Relations

asaffronladoftherisingsun

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Sure, F16 is an example i took to distinguish between military aid and civilian aid.

ultimately point remains the same, muricans are going to spend money on pak. it is us, who need to stop taking it as an affront to us.

i haven't seen any policy advisory which says, U.S must abandon pak for the sake of India. we are not there yet.
 

shade

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All this is happening because their dreams/plans of regime change haven't been crushed by Mudi baba.
They know we won't respond to this ungli, we can't because we love the somewhat illusory carrot of west supporting our industry/manufacturing via investment.
They think come 2024 Mudi baba will be removed, and then they can control India's foreign and domestic policies via their INC/AAP puppets.

Notice after 2 years worth of sanctions drama post Tiananmen Square massacre, the entire west took off their trousers and bent over infront of the CCP for a good 15 years of mutually profitable (((trade))).
The protest in Tiananmen Square was a color revolution, and CCP crushed it, in a show of power, and that is what brought the (((West))/(((US))) to the negotiating table and respect ching chong's red lines.

Till they realize India isn't that weak to be pushed around, all this g*ndmasti will continue.


Also this Free & Democratic behavior is why India hasn't condemned the KGB President yet inspite of all the Vishwaguru urges, and has increased oil purchases from them.

We are forced to align to the West in many areas because of ChingChong.
Russia is forced to align with Chong because of the West.
 

shade

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The way Americans reacted after India's neutrality, the way social media trends were generated against India, it was clear that they weren't happy. UAE, China and lot of countries remained neutral but CIA backed western media overwhelmingly criticized only India. Whatever pipe dreams Indian hopium sellers are selling in the name of grand strategy, the fact is our relationship with America isn't on good terms as they were few years ago.
They expect us to be their pet dogs, and in exchange we must be happy with their kicks and not ask for any treats, I mean we have 0 leverage to ask for any "treats".
Even if we behaved like Weebs and Koreans and treated Russia like a leper, there was no guarantee they wouldn't arm pakistan or ungli us in another 9000 different ways.

Now why do they do this? because we are weak, we are dependent on them in many ways and it isn't necessary to have us as an ally since they don't take the threat posed by China to their hegemony seriously, or they prefer to put their head in the sand and simply appease the Dragon's demands.

Perhaps biding our time and not reacting( for now ) to these slights and defeating regime change attempts till we are strong industrially/economically and also socially( and as a nation state ) will change things in the future or maybe not.

Point remains that they are as unreliable as ever, policy vis India still stuck in Cold War era and are ever amenable to Pakistani lobbying efforts.
 

johnj

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Let's also look at it from U.S's perspective, if they don't keep those paki F-16's running, their fleet will be replaced with chini fighter jets, one less opportunity for U.S foreign policy to influence outcomes in this region.

there is a video i posted in think tank thread of turkish FM's view of the world, he says his country does not appreciate U.S's support to kurdish groups. and in this case turkey is a NATO ally, and in turkey's case U.S even operates airbases.

from our perspective, GoI can only factor these in their diplomatic strategy. muricans have their self interest, we have ours, and there are areas our interests meet, and many areas where our interests do not meet.
U.S's support anyone who fight their dirty war, after the war, US don't care.
 

Hari Sud

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All this is happening because their dreams/plans of regime change haven't been crushed by Mudi baba.
They know we won't respond to this ungli, we can't because we love the somewhat illusory carrot of west supporting our industry/manufacturing via investment.
They think come 2024 Mudi baba will be removed, and then they can control India's foreign and domestic policies via their INC/AAP puppets.

Notice after 2 years worth of sanctions drama post Tiananmen Square massacre, the entire west took off their trousers and bent over infront of the CCP for a good 15 years of mutually profitable (((trade))).
The protest in Tiananmen Square was a color revolution, and CCP crushed it, in a show of power, and that is what brought the (((West))/(((US))) to the negotiating table and respect ching chong's red lines.

Till they realize India isn't that weak to be pushed around, all this g*ndmasti will continue.


Also this Free & Democratic behavior is why India hasn't condemned the KGB President yet inspite of all the Vishwaguru urges, and has increased oil purchases from them.

We are forced to align to the West in many areas because of ChingChong.
Russia is forced to align with Chong because of the West.
Imagining too much. Your imagination is running wild…. ‘Come 2024 that Modi will be removed’. And many more quotes but let you think practically.
 

Hari Sud

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sure, that's from our perspective.

let's look at policy advisories that white house is getting from their think tanks.



https://www.cfr.org/report/china-and-belt-and-road-initiative-south-asia

if we spend time looking into policy advisories to senate, we might even get the exact policy advisory they are getting.
I went thru the paper you quoted twice. Not much to gleam out of a huge pure longish write up. What will a US congressional opinion maker and official will get out of it, I wonder. The author provides pages of write up which is freely available in newspapers but enough pages to justify the money paid to him. The key in CPEC is what made Pakistan to agree to Chinese investment of $62 billion at 6% interest when not much can move over the 13,000 feet Khunjreb Pass connecting China with Pakistan. A German study already said at that time that much cheaper to put 30,000 tons of cargo on a ship at Shanghai and get it to Indian Ocean in less than ten days. It will take 3,000 trucks and one month to move the same cargo via CPEC. Then why did Pakistan agree to it? Truth may be unknown but my guess is that they were warming up to China as an anti Indian front and get Chinese into occupied Kashmir as an insurance policy…… Think about it…… sorry we have lost the original topic. We we’re talking about, cooling of India-US relations fourth time in 75 years. Let us continue on that.
 

ezsasa

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I went thru the paper you quoted twice. Not much to gleam out of a huge pure longish write up. What will a US congressional opinion maker and official will get out of it, I wonder. The author provides pages of write up which is freely available in newspapers but enough pages to justify the money paid to him. The key in CPEC is what made Pakistan to agree to Chinese investment of $62 billion at 6% interest when not much can move over the 13,000 feet Khunjreb Pass connecting China with Pakistan. A German study already said at that time that much cheaper to put 30,000 tons of cargo on a ship at Shanghai and get it to Indian Ocean in less than ten days. It will take 3,000 trucks and one month to move the same cargo via CPEC. Then why did Pakistan agree to it? Truth may be unknown but my guess is that they were warming up to China as an anti Indian front and get Chinese into occupied Kashmir as an insurance policy…… Think about it…… sorry we have lost the original topic. We we’re talking about, cooling of India-US relations fourth time in 75 years. Let us continue on that.
we are still on the original topic.

my argument is, U.S giving military aid to pak does not mean India-US relations have gone down in the current equation. it was made abundantly clear by Jai Shankar in many speeches, India-US need not agree on everything, but they will keep trying to explore more topics of convergences. Modi himself said to Biden in a bilateral, that we want to focus on positive agenda.

the points India-US agree on are mentioned in the many joint statements + QUAD agenda + IPEF pillars + china agenda(partially) + climate change agenda.
the points we don't agree on are largely as is. some of them are trade, pakistan military aid, UNSC reforms.

what other adversarial policies you think U.S will adopt in next six months to year directly w.r.t India, which will demonstrate that Indo-U.S relationship is on a backslide?
 
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shade

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Imagining too much. Your imagination is running wild…. ‘Come 2024 that Modi will be removed’. And many more quotes but let you think practically.
You didn't read the "They think" before that? :p
The point is they are doing to try some toolkit protest in late 2023, shaheen bagh and khalistani protest were just trial runs, by now you know that Congress has whored itself out wholesale to the CIA, and Kejriwal was already an asset since 2012.
So they will try to use another toolkit protest to either boot Mudi baba out of power, or if he wins try to show him as fascis, racis, nazi etc etc by pushing him so that he has to respond with violence.

The best way to know what is the "ideal state" the (((West))) wants India in is to read their rags like BBC, NYT, WaPo with the amount of negative propaganda they push out, they want to reduce India to their own puppet state.
 

Hari Sud

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we are still on the original topic.

my argument is, U.S giving military aid to pak does not mean India-US relations have gone down in the current equation. it was made abundantly clear by Jai Shankar in many speeches, India-US need not agree on everything, but they will keep trying to explore more topics of convergences. Modi himself said to Biden in a bilateral, that we want to focus on positive agenda.

the points India-US agree on are mentioned in the many joint statements + QUAD agenda + IPEF pillars + china agenda(partially) + climate change agenda.
the points we don't agree on are largely as is. some of them are trade, pakistan military aid, UNSC reforms.

what other adversarial policies you think U.S will adopt in next six months to year directly w.r.t India, which will demonstrate that Indo-U.S relationship is on a backslide?
Disagree again…… a non smile or lack of smile is a displeasure in diplomatic language. That is what Shankar is expressing.

Timing of announcement was such that nobody who watches international diplomacy chessboard that both announcements of IMF aid and Military upgrade were timed as a poke in India’s eyes for not supporting US in Ukraine war and buying cheap Russian oil. I give you an analogy…… Why do you (the Americans) buy Chinese products in abundance because these are cheap. Same is true for Russian oil. The bunch in Washington does not like it.

The F-16 from day one in 1985 we’re meant to attack India or to give Pakistanis an edge. India was forced to buy Su-30mk1 to counter the F-16. Now US has upped the ante by upgrading the F-16s. Who is going to be other end of this fight…… India. Should India be pleased…… Sir, No.

Let us talk QUAD and UNSC reforms another day in an another thread.
 

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Roshan

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we are still on the original topic.

my argument is, U.S giving military aid to pak does not mean India-US relations have gone down in the current equation. it was made abundantly clear by Jai Shankar in many speeches, India-US need not agree on everything, but they will keep trying to explore more topics of convergences. Modi himself said to Biden in a bilateral, that we want to focus on positive agenda.

the points India-US agree on are mentioned in the many joint statements + QUAD agenda + IPEF pillars + china agenda(partially) + climate change agenda.
the points we don't agree on are largely as is. some of them are trade, pakistan military aid, UNSC reforms.

what other adversarial policies you think U.S will adopt in next six months to year directly w.r.t India, which will demonstrate that Indo-U.S relationship is on a backslide?
this problem of having a narrow view on the scope of the relationship or not taking cognizance of and respecting changes/the aspirations/compulsions of the other side is a problem only on 1 side, not the other. Differences can exist and be worked around but red lines seem to be valid only in 1 case as we are observing. The way we view our equation with the Murricans is similar to the kind of pragmatism you seem to be alluding ought to exist but it is not reciprocated due to some fundamental differences in perception leading to double standards which are not easily reconciled. Sullivan's solitary statement is the only one I have seen from their foreign policy/state dept establishment apparatchiks since the Ukraine war began that has reflected the slightest nuance.
 

ezsasa

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this problem of having a narrow view on the scope of the relationship or not taking cognizance of and respecting changes/the aspirations/compulsions of the other side is a problem only on 1 side, not the other. Differences can exist and be worked around but red lines seem to be valid only in 1 case as we are observing. The way we view our equation with the Murricans is similar to the kind of pragmatism you seem to be alluding ought to exist but it is not reciprocated due to some fundamental differences in perception leading to double standards which are not easily reconciled. Sullivan's solitary statement is the only one I have seen from their foreign policy/state dept establishment apparatchiks since the Ukraine war began that has reflected the slightest nuance.
on the narrow minded view.
by now, we should have had academic expertise on U.S as a country beyond just IR. our domestic discourse on U.S would have been more wholesome, and not subject to Washington DC talking points.

on China we seem to have this expertise but not other P5, not even on UK.

how do we know this? Simple, there hardly any books to these topics from India.
 

Okabe Rintarou

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on the narrow minded view.
by now, we should have had academic expertise on U.S as a country beyond just IR. our domestic discourse on U.S would have been more wholesome, and not subject to Washington DC talking points.

on China we seem to have this expertise but not other P5, not even on UK.

how do we know this? Simple, there hardly any books to these topics from India.
Beyond the usual ORF, etc think tanks, shouldn't this be the area where ex-IFS officers should be writing books on? I wonder what IFS officers usually do post-retirement.
 

ezsasa

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Beyond the usual ORF, etc think tanks, shouldn't this be the area where ex-IFS officers should be writing books on? I wonder what IFS officers usually do post-retirement.
in this case retired babus won’t cut it, it’s a full time job and have to start young on research.

IFS babus do write books, but not all of them.
 

Roshan

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on the narrow minded view.
by now, we should have had academic expertise on U.S as a country beyond just IR. our domestic discourse on U.S would have been more wholesome, and not subject to Washington DC talking points.

on China we seem to have this expertise but not other P5, not even on UK.

how do we know this? Simple, there hardly any books to these topics from India.
that's a think tank issue, even in the Chinese case the number of think tanks they have churning out material on India is orders of magnitude greater than what we have documenting their internal affairs, culture and history which inform their world view. I'd say our general repository of knowledge pertaining to the West and it's ways is greater because of a first hand colonial experience that we can draw on and so too imperialist connotations of American exceptionalism that are at the heart of it's ethos which still permeate all such discussions and policy issues.
 
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Samaritan

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They expect us to be their pet dogs, and in exchange we must be happy with their kicks and not ask for any treats, I mean we have 0 leverage to ask for any "treats".
Even if we behaved like Weebs and Koreans and treated Russia like a leper, there was no guarantee they wouldn't arm pakistan or ungli us in another 9000 different ways.

Now why do they do this? because we are weak, we are dependent on them in many ways and it isn't necessary to have us as an ally since they don't take the threat posed by China to their hegemony seriously, or they prefer to put their head in the sand and simply appease the Dragon's demands.

Perhaps biding our time and not reacting( for now ) to these slights and defeating regime change attempts till we are strong industrially/economically and also socially( and as a nation state ) will change things in the future or maybe not.

Point remains that they are as unreliable as ever, policy vis India still stuck in Cold War era and are ever amenable to Pakistani lobbying efforts.
Very correct analysis in in first part of the Post about US relation with India.
 

HitmanBlood

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this problem of having a narrow view on the scope of the relationship or not taking cognizance of and respecting changes/the aspirations/compulsions of the other side is a problem only on 1 side, not the other. Differences can exist and be worked around but red lines seem to be valid only in 1 case as we are observing. The way we view our equation with the Murricans is similar to the kind of pragmatism you seem to be alluding ought to exist but it is not reciprocated due to some fundamental differences in perception leading to double standards which are not easily reconciled. Sullivan's solitary statement is the only one I have seen from their foreign policy/state dept establishment apparatchiks since the Ukraine war began that has reflected the slightest nuance.
I want to add that US itself isn't a proper democracy but rather a two party oligarchy. Any third party or individual candidate is discouraged by the system. Also political bribes by wealthy locals and foreigners is legal in US in the name of lobbying. US deep state has a big say in government operations. CIA has spied on politicians on record. None of this is democratic.

India operates in the true spirit of democracy while US uses democracy as a facade to hide its rigid and monopolistic political structure. This is why US prefers other autocratic states compared to chaotic democracies like India.

We can discribe US system as a progressive system of government that prefers progress over democratic process. The direction of progress is determined by their think tanks and academics and their deep state forcibly implements it. On closer inspection, this model isn't that much different from China.
 

Kumaoni

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I want to add that US itself isn't a proper democracy but rather a two party oligarchy. Any third party or individual candidate is discouraged by the system. Also political bribes by wealthy locals and foreigners is legal in US in the name of lobbying. US deep state has a big say in government operations. CIA has spied on politicians on record. None of this is democratic.

India operates in the true spirit of democracy while US uses democracy as a facade to hide its rigid and monopolistic political structure. This is why US prefers other autocratic states compared to chaotic democracies like India.

We can discribe US system as a progressive system of government that prefers progress over democratic process. The direction of progress is determined by their think tanks and academics and their deep state forcibly implements it. On closer inspection, this model isn't that much different from China.
It’s not. The methods are just different.
 

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