India To Pull Thousands of Troops From Kashmir

is troop withdrawl correct

  • yes

    Votes: 24 36.9%
  • no

    Votes: 28 43.1%
  • time will tell

    Votes: 13 20.0%

  • Total voters
    65

Oracle

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Again, lets not get confused between paramilitary forces like CRPF and Indian Army.
I am not confused. I know it very well, having seen them from close quarters.

From the news reports, it looks like GP Pillai has not talked to the Army Chief and that is very unfortunate. But from the previous such reports, it is about reducing CRPF presence from populated areas.
I was talking about that too! Reducing the strength of the IA is not good. History taught us that we can trust a snake, but not Pakistan.

Militancy is at a 20 yearlow. The problem that happened over summer did not involve bullets and militants but mostly riotous crowds. You need riot-squads to tackle them, not CRPF armed with machine guns.
CRPF assists the State Police in maintaining normalcy in riot hit areas, when the State Administration finds that the Police Force does not have strength enough to tackle situations. There are also cases, albeit rare - when the CRPF is involved in insurgency operations. Army is for terrorist ops and for maintaining the integrity of the Country. I have never seen CRPF carrying machine guns, as they have to walk along the streets maintaining vigil. Even the IA do not carry machine guns in terrorist ops, until the situation demands it. Remember, terrorist ops are guerrilla warfare, not war. CRPF carry guns and so do the Police. The machine guns are placed at CRPF camps, so that they can defend themselves in case of an attack on their camp. In cases rare, maybe they do carry machine guns - but I find it absurd that machine guns would be used to control irate mobs. In that case, the casualty would have been in 1000s in Kashmir, no?

Militancy is at a 20 year low because of the combined effort of the State Police, CRPF, IA & Intelligence Agencies.

Omar Abdulla calling in the Army was a foolish act. The Army is not involved in tackling the population, its the CRPF and Police. And it should stay tha way. Again, looks at the militancy related incidents and then think about it. Eventually the Unified Command will take the decision but the main idea is to reduce security forces from population areas. And this is mainly CRPF forces.

Going by the statements of the Army Chief, there will be reduction in Army troops.
I think that was an excellent idea. Maybe Omar Abdullah is too young to understand situations, but he's the best man to access the situation in ground zero. Remember when the IA did a flag march, those rioters hid their tails between their legs and were seen nowhere.

Militancy related incidents? Which world do you live in mate? Militancy is not low because militants have become members of peace keeping forces. Militants are finding it hard to cross over. And when they do cross over, they get what they deserve - death like a dog. we should thank the IA for that. And since PA & ISI is finding it hard to send militants to India, they are using scums on their payrolls to prop up mobs so that Kashmir gets International attention.
I would however agree that rubber bullets should be used to control riots. Those are mainly brainwashed youths, and they do need a second chance.

P.S.: I have used the word militant in exchange of your post. They are not militants, they are terrorists. Hence, we should be using that word.
 
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Illusive

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Well situation in Kashmir is interconnected to economic and ideology. People are unemployed and separatists take advantage of it, if they are employed why would they waste their time throwing stones. I am talking mostly about youth. Recently we saw these stonethrowers applying for job in police force, i think the govt has the aces. We don't want them to be pro-Indian but not anti-Indian either.
Now why remove troops? I think this will set the right environment for Kashmiri's to come out of their shells. Take out the youth from the separatists parties and they are nothing but a bunch of loosers. Throwing stones aren't going to feed their stomach, they maybe paid for doing so, but at somepoint they'll get tired of doing so.

I think its a risk worth taking, but still a risk. From all we know that even after 60yrs Kashmir is not resolved, but we have the economy to our advantage and vacant job seats for the Kashmiri's.

Keep the intel coming in from ground- zero, train the police force well to handle the problems caused by gilani and co.
 

S.A.T.A

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Gen V.K Singh's statement on the Jammu and Kashmir Judiciary is a telling indictment on the level distrust Indian security and administrative organs have developed for the state institution and agencies.The General's view is shared by many in the security forces and by others in know of things,this distrust extends to other institutions,esp the jammu and Kashmir law enforcement agencies.The J&K police is generally considered useless for any counter insurgency efforts and many instances they are considered to working against the interest of the security forces by acting as collaborators of terrorist outfits.This is one of the reason why the Army and other security agencies hesitate to concede greater role for the jammu & Kashmir police,esp in areas which are considered the hot bed of terrorist activities.
 

Oracle

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Agree with S.A.T.A. If the State Administration wants, there is nothing they cannot do. The will should be there.

GOD, I have already discussed most points you mentioned.
 

ejazr

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As I suspected, there was some confusion between Army chief and Home secretary statement but it has been clarified


J-K troop reduction: Was talking about Army, clarifies Gen Singh

A day after his comments which were seen as countering Home Secretary on troop reduction in Jammu and Kashmir, Army Chief General V K Singh today clarified that he was talking about the Army personnel while G K Pillai was referring to paramilitary forces.

"I think there was some confusion. What Mr Pillai said was concerning the Paramilitary forces. What I was talking of was Army," he told reporters here seeking to clear the perception that the two were talking in different voices.

"No person from Home Ministry will say about Army as it is under the purview of the Defence Ministry. I am quite sure that the Home Secretary knows about it and talk only about the Paramilitary forces only," Singh said.

Pillai yesterday said the government was planning 25 per cent cut in troops in Kashmir. Hours later, the Army Chief said, "We have not yet felt that we have to cut down our forces. If they want to cut down para-military and police forces, I won't say anything..."

This was interpreted by some sections as Gen Singh countering the Home Secretary.

The Army chief today noted that any decisions regarding reduction of Army strength in the valley would be taken by the Unified Headquarters (UHQ), which is headed by the State Chief Minister.

"Where they (Home Ministry) want to take out people, it is up to them. Whatever input is required, it will be provided by the UHQ. I have got no conflict or argument with anybody on this issue," Gen Singh said, adding "So far as the Army is concerned, I am quite convinced as what the Army is supposed to do."
 

ejazr

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The charge that J&Kpolice is not trained in counter terrorism is misplaced. The criticism has been that the J&K police is entirely geared towards COIN and not riot control and that is one of the reason for higher number of deaths in the summer protests. The SOG branch of the J&K police (estb. in 1994) played a major role in turning the tide of militants and insurgency in the valley. Possibly the only State police force specially trained for COIN. They continue to play an important role in local intelligence gathering and investigation like cracking the stone-pelter nexus. Infact, given the challenges of tackling a COIN, local policing duties as well as riot control duties the J&K police has performed quite well in the last 10-15 year period.

Here is an Open Magazine article on some selected officers that is a must read to get a better profile of the J&K police that should do any Indian proud. The same magazine that exposed the radiatapes. Below is just an excerpt to whet your appetite. You can read the entire article in the hyperlink provided.

The Khaki Fidayeen
As gunfire crackled in the snowscaped Srinagar chill of early January, with two fidayeen fighters—wholly rolled, strapped and sold to their 'cause'—holding Lal Chowk's Punjab Hotel under seige, a handful of Kashmir's police officers were overcome with déjà vu. And itchy fingers, that burning need to be there as part of the operation, countering terror with all they've got. Equally if not more dedicated to India's own cause, the legitimate cause of Peace in the Valley, these men in khaki are clear they have what it takes—if only the government would deploy them. Back in 1989, when the insurgency broke out, the J&K Police was ill-equipped to handle it; some policemen were even suspected of sympathy with insurgents. Today, the force actually has police officers trained in counter-terrorism. Most of them are Kashmiri Muslims, and when they say they would've wrapped up the 26/11 job in just ten hours, it doesn't sound like an empty boast. They're India's Khaki Fidayeen. Open profiles five such policemen. They've already helped steady things in J&K, and are raring for action...
 

Tshering22

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^I don't doubt them one bit. J&K has been in hell for so long that I bet their police would be as ruthless as NSG themselves and that they could have done the job in less than 10 hours.

NSG had one problem then; they didn't have transport as that distance from Manesar and pathetic indecision to not use a Helo once they reached Mumbai earlier became a problem.

 

Oracle

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So when we have trained police force in K, why do we need to keep the army there.
And you thought I'm gonna reveal secret info?
1. Check Map of India
2. Check Pakistan's history
3. Check China's intentions
 
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ejazr

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So when we have trained police force in K, why do we need to keep the army there.
Police is for internal security. Army is to protect from China and Pakistan.

J&K is the only Indian territory that has been attacked in a full fledged war FIVE times since Indepedance, has had one insurgency and also the only Indian territory that can be attacked by both China and Pakistan simulataneously. The Army and AirForce have a crucial role and has to be deployed with the latest equipment in this area,
 

Illusive

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And you thought I'm gonna reveal secret info?
1. Check Map of India
2. Check Pakistan's history
3. Check China's intentions
Hey guys, Chill what I mean to say is take out the troops from the populated area, not the border region. And i too have my reservations about that alright.
 

S.A.T.A

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A good example of why the j&K local Police is yet to earn the trust of the security forces.

Cops, jawans joined stone-pelters in J&K

Srinagar: Shocking details have emerged on how some policemen and jawans, were part of the stone-pelting mobs, that Kashmir's security forces repeatedly clashed with, during the civil strife between June and September last year.

NDTV has access to documents that show at least four policemen and one Army jawan were involved in the incidents.

"Some of them have been circumstantial because if they have been stuck in a locality and forced out of their homes. Those things are not exactly indicative or symptomatic of police behavior," said SM Sahai, Inspector General of Police, Kashmir.

The official line may be that it was an act of aberration, but three policemen have already been arrested, one has been charged, and one more is being probed to see if he funded a group of stone-pelters.

Many Special Police Officers on contract, deserted the force when the agitation was at its peak. Three policemen at Police Training Centre in Baramulla quit their jobs. Some of them possibly felt a sense of alignment with the agitation, but most succumbed to the rising anger of the people against the police.

"In June-July, when the situation worsened, the police faced a huge pressure. So, I granted the force a Hardship Allowance," said Omar Abdullah, Chief Minister of Jammu & Kashmir.

The police say the bigger challenge before it is the extent of the involvement of government employees.

"We are more concerned about government employees who have been actively involved in organising stone-pelting and funding it," said SM Sahai.

Eighty government employees have been arrested, and cases have been registered against 181. Many of them are teachers. Ten serious offenders have been jailed for two years, without the benefit of trial.

The four-month long civil strife was a tightrope walk for local policemen. Now the expose, that some men in uniform were involved in stone-pelting has embarrassed the force that claimed all this while that the summer's unrest was fuelled by militants.
 

Tshering22

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^^ This should open the eyes of those who suggest removal of Army. The thing is, there are some people from the same local Kashmiri population who live around the area of separatist colonies and who have mixed emotions and confused state. One time they feel they should align with the nation and other time their religious brainwashing by fundamentalists kicks in and they change their mind. Hence this sort of nonsense happens.
 

Oracle

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It's not the IA they are talking about, it's the Paramilitary Forces @ Tshering. Please read the posts from the beginning.
 

pmaitra

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Who the heck is he to tell the govt not to cut down the troops level in Kashmir,whats his credentials to make this kind of call,is he more smarter than Omar Abdullah,or is he eminently more qualified than Chidambaram,to asses the security situation Kashmir.If he had such an expertise why is he not the Kashmir panel,comprised of blazing intellectuals of rare brilliance who are currently ceased with resolving Kashmir's political crisis once and for all.

The good General is advised to spend his time on more useful pursuits,like issue briefings of Chinese border violations,and leave such challenging tasks like Kashmir to more abler hands.
Chidambaram is a politician. Do not forget that. Either he knows little, or knows everything and pretends to be a messiah and prevaricates. I can give you an example but then that would be deviating from the topic. He is, I would grant, just a little better than Mani Shankar Aiyar.
 

Oracle

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Chidambaram is a politician. Do not forget that. Either he knows little, or knows everything and pretends to be a messiah and prevaricates. I can give you an example but then that would be deviating from the topic. He is, I would grant, just a little better than Mani Shankar Aiyar.
There are times when we all have to unleash the beast in us to achieve something. Pmaitra, you should have done that by just a read of S.A.T.A's post. You did not grasp that, not your fault. Not everybody can be spoon-fed, we are a country of 1.3 billion you see.
 

pmaitra

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There are times when we all have to unleash the beast in us to achieve something. Pmaitra, you should have done that by just a read of S.A.T.A's post. You did not grasp that, not your fault. Not everybody can be spoon-fed, we are a country of 1.3 billion you see.
  • What exactly are you trying to say?
  • Who decides when to unleash a beast? Please specify.
  • What is it that I failed to grasp by reading S.A.T.A.'s post? Kindly elaborate.
  • Also, kindly elaborate who you think can/cannot be spoon-fed?

I highlighted a portion of S.A.T.A.'s post because my response was w.r.t. that part of his post. For the second time, let me explain by re-phrasing what I tried to say in my earlier post (#55): I do not agree that Chidambaram is competent enough to make policy decisions. I do believe in the integrity and ethics of an Army Officer more than that of Chidambaram, who is a politician. (Let me know if you need evidence, and I will post it here.)

Hopefully you will be able to grasp what I am trying to say this time.

P.S.: Right now, I agree with the troop reduction. The fact that I trust an Army Officer more than a politician, does not imply that I disagree with the troop reduction.
 
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Daredevil

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  • What exactly are you trying to say?
  • Who decides when to unleash a beast? Please specify.
  • What is it that I failed to grasp by reading S.A.T.A.'s post? Kindly elaborate.
  • Also, kindly elaborate who you think can/cannot be spoon-fed?

I highlighted a portion of S.A.T.A.'s post because my response was w.r.t. that part of his post. For the second time, let me explain by re-phrasing what I tried to say in my earlier post (#55): I do not agree that Chidambaram is competent enough to make policy decisions. I do believe in the integrity and ethics of an Army Officer more than that of Chidambaram, who is a politician. (Let me know if you need evidence, and I will post it here.)

Hopefully you will be able to grasp what I am trying to say this time.

P.S.: Right now, I agree with the troop reduction. The fact that I trust an Army Officer more than a politician, does not imply that I disagree with the troop reduction.
I think Oracle meant that SATA's post was laced with sarcasm but you took it literally.
 

Oracle

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I think Oracle meant that SATA's post was laced with sarcasm but you took it literally.
:becky: :cool:

I do not agree that Chidambaram is competent enough to make policy decisions. I do believe in the integrity and ethics of an Army Officer more than that of Chidambaram, who is a politician. (Let me know if you need evidence, and I will post it here.)
Chidambaram has done a good job regarding some terror groups in the NE. For e.g DHD(J) a.k.a Black Widow a.k.a Jewel Gorlosa faction & DHD(Nunisa) faction. Jewel is cooling his ass in jail and his outfit was forced to surrender. DHD Nunisa faction is in a cease fire with the GoI for the last 5 years or so. Extortions still continue though, and I do not blame Chidambaram for that. It's the task of the local law enforcement agency. I disagree that Chidambram is incompetent. He does not have the authority to call shots.
 

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