India should recognize Tibetan freedom for its own good.

Daredevil

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I am now very enjoying your anger over my messing your Kashmir ...just as you enjoy CHinese anger over your messing our Tibet ....

just have a change-place-reflect....
I think Chinese have lost the ability to sense the emotions under CCP rule and continued propaganda. p2prada only pointed out the facts for which you anointed the emotion of anger when there was none.

Kashmir was legal occupation with agreement from the then prince of J&K.
Tibet was forceful and illegal annexation by China without any agreements.
 

johnee

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I am now very enjoying your anger over my messing your Kashmir ...just as you enjoy CHinese anger over your messing our Tibet ....

just have a change-place-reflect....
Stop trying to obfuscate, deviate and confuse the issue, and stick to the topic of the thread, there is a separate thread for Kashmir, where you can get educated about Kashmir and its dissimilarity to Tibet.
 

Daredevil

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[mod]Kashmir related issues moved here. Discuss in that thread. Here stick to the topic of Tibet.[/mod]
 

no smoking

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Oh but we would:

- An independent Tibet would automatically obviate any Chinese claims to Arunaachal Pradesh, which presently rest on the frivolous claim to ownership on behalf of the Tibetan people as being an appendage of the South Tibetan plateau.

- An independent Tibet would also serve as a buffer state between two large Asian countries.

- It would erode into China's territorial size, by as much as a 1/7th, which in strategic terms would suit India nicely.

- Because of cultural and religious affinity, Tibet would lean towards India, and it is not unfeasible that it would become a sectary-state giving India greater leverage in a region where it is bordered by a nuclear-capable rival on the one side, and a nuclear-capable, rapidly emerging competitor economy on the other.


Ofcourse, in reality, the balance of power occasions that India does not have the ability to effect such an outcome.

But as to its benefits, they are certainly there (note: this argument does not factor in the predominant consideration that the Tibetans themselves desire independence).
All these benefits rely upon the complete independence of tibet. As long as chinese central gov has the final say in tibeten affairs, these benefits would be far from reach.

So the only way turn these into reality is: war.
 

no smoking

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I think Chinese have lost the ability to sense the emotions under CCP rule and continued propaganda. p2prada only pointed out the facts for which you anointed the emotion of anger when there was none.

Kashmir was legal occupation with agreement from the then prince of J&K.
Tibet was forceful and illegal annexation by China without any agreements.
[mod] don't bring non related issues here pls [/mod]

In terms of Tibet, the chinese sovereignty over tibet was and is recognised by most of countries including india. I am sorry that no gov in the world come to ask your vote on this problem
 

Rage

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All these benefits rely upon the complete independence of tibet. As long as chinese central gov has the final say in tibeten affairs, these benefits would be far from reach.

So the only way turn these into reality is: war.

That's right no_smoking. However, recognizing the independence of Tibet precludes any feasibility of getting India to the negotiating table vis-à-vis Chinese claims over Arun'aachal Pradesh as the 'South Tibet' plateau. It is the first step into setting into motion, and legitimizing, the process of events that would ultimately culminate in the 'trennbar' of Tibet in a ratiocinative progression.
 

Daredevil

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In terms of Tibet, the chinese sovereignty over tibet was and is recognised by most of countries including india. I am sorry that no gov in the world come to ask your vote on this problem
We are not discussing about the Chinese sovereignty over Tibet but the forceful annexation of Tibet. Many countries including India might have recognized China's sovereignty owing to realpolitik and geopolitics not because China was legal in its annexation of Tibet against the wishes of indigenous Tibetans who have been persecuted time and again.
 

no smoking

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We are not discussing about the Chinese sovereignty over Tibet but the forceful annexation of Tibet. Many countries including India might have recognized China's sovereignty owing to realpolitik and geopolitics not because China was legal in its annexation of Tibet against the wishes of indigenous Tibetans who have been persecuted time and again.
Ok, so you suggest that the turnaround of india's stance will stop this "annexation"? Last time I check, it is USA the sole superpower in this world, not india.
 

no smoking

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That's right no_smoking. However, recognizing the independence of Tibet precludes any feasibility of getting India to the negotiating table vis-à-vis Chinese claims over Arun'aachal Pradesh as the 'South Tibet' plateau. It is the first step into setting into motion, and legitimizing, the process of events that would ultimately culminate in the 'trennbar' of Tibet in a ratiocinative progression.
Sorry, I think india gov's already sold the tibet for china's recognition of sikkim.

For India’s Tibet turn, China to amend its Sikkim map

So, you need to give a new price for AP, how about Aksai chin?
 

nimo_cn

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Sorry, I think india gov's already sold the tibet for china's recognition of sikkim.
It seems they want to play the Tibet card again.
But they forget we can play the sikkim card again as well, if they want to.
 

Yusuf

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Only a free and fair election in Tibet among the ethnic Tibetans can tell you what they feel. How about giving that a try? That we had elections in Sikkim where they voted and chose a govt there that is very much pro India tells you where their priority lies.

Does the CCP have the guts to have a referendum in Tibet?
 

Rage

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Sorry, I think india gov's already sold the tibet for china's recognition of sikkim.

For India’s Tibet turn, China to amend its Sikkim map

So, you need to give a new price for AP, how about Aksai chin?

The CCP also signed a border agreement with India in 2005 that acknowledged that the "interests of the settled populations of the border regions would be kept in mind", and that the settled regions would be beyond the purview of a land-transfer agreement. Care to tell me where that is now?

If you needed any confirmation of the people of Arun'aachal Pradesh's accession to India, you need only watch the crowds that thronged the Dalai Lama's visit holding Indian flags or the turnouts at state and local-level elections.

And, if so, why does China continue to claim the "settled-region" of Tawang?
 

no smoking

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The CCP also signed a border agreement with India in 2005 that acknowledged that the "interests of the settled populations of the border regions would be kept in mind", and that the settled regions would be beyond the purview of a land-transfer agreement. Care to tell me where that is now?

If you needed any confirmation of the people of Arun'aachal Pradesh's accession to India, you need only watch the crowds that thronged the Dalai Lama's visit holding Indian flags or the turnouts at state and local-level elections.

And, if so, why does China continue to claim the "settled-region" of Tawang?
Please provide the link about this agreement which is not from india source.

Thanks.
 

ppgj

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Please provide the link about this agreement which is not from india source.

Thanks.
this is a joint statement issued by the two govts.
Text of India-China agreement

Text of India-China agreement



This is the text of the agreement between the Government of the Republic of India and the Government of the People's Republic of China on the Political Parameters and Guiding Principles for the Settlement of the India-China Boundary Question



The Government of the Republic of India and the Government of the People's Republic of China (hereinafter referred to as the two sides),



Believing that it serves the fundamental interests of the peoples of India and China to foster a long-term constructive and cooperative partnership on the basis of the Five Principles of Peaceful Co-existence, mutual respect and sensitivity for each other's concerns and aspirations, and equality,



Desirous of qualitatively upgrading the bilateral relationship at all levels and in all areas while addressing differences through peaceful means in a fair, reasonable and mutually acceptable manner,



Reiterating their commitment to abide by and implement the Agreement on the Maintenance of Peace and Tranquillity along the Line of Actual Control in the India-China Border Areas, signed on 7 September 1993, and the Agreement on Confidence Building Measures in the Military Field along the Line of Actual Control in the India-China Border Areas, signed on 29 November 1996,



Reaffirming the Declaration on Principles for Relations and Comprehensive Cooperation between India and China, signed on 23 June 2003,



Recalling that the two sides have appointed Special Representatives to explore the framework of settlement of the India-China boundary question and the two Special Representatives have been engaged in consultations in a friendly, cooperative and constructive atmosphere,



Noting that the two sides are seeking a political settlement of the boundary question in the context of their overall and long-term interests,



Convinced that an early settlement of the boundary question will advance the basic interests of the two countries and should therefore be pursued as a strategic objective,



Have agreed on the following political parameters and guiding principles for a boundary settlement:



Article I



The differences on the boundary question should not be allowed to affect the overall development of bilateral relations. The two sides will resolve the boundary question through peaceful and friendly consultations. Neither side shall use or threaten to use force against the other by any means. The final solution of the boundary question will significantly promote good neighbourly and friendly relations between India and China.



Article II



The two sides should, in accordance with the Five Principles of Peaceful Coexistence, seek a fair, reasonable and mutually acceptable solution to the boundary question through consultations on an equal footing, proceeding from the political perspective of overall bilateral relations.



Article III



Both sides should, in the spirit of mutual respect and mutual understanding, make meaningful and mutually acceptable adjustments to their respective positions on the boundary question, so as to arrive at a package settlement to the boundary question. The boundary settlement must be final, covering all sectors of the India-China boundary.



Article IV



The two sides will give due consideration to each other's strategic and reasonable interests, and the principle of mutual and equal security.



Article V



The two sides will take into account, inter alia, historical evidence, national sentiments, practical difficulties and reasonable concerns and sensitivities of both sides, and the actual state of border areas.



Article VI



The boundary should be along well-defined and easily identifiable natural geographical features to be mutually agreed upon between the two sides.



Article VII



In reaching a boundary settlement, the two sides shall safeguard due interests of their settled populations in the border areas.



Article VIII



Within the agreed framework of the final boundary settlement, the delineation of the boundary will be carried out utilising means such as modern cartographic and surveying practices and joint surveys.



Article IX



Pending an ultimate settlement of the boundary question, the two sides should strictly respect and observe the line of actual control and work together to maintain peace and tranquillity in the border areas. The India-China Joint Working Group and the India-China Diplomatic and Military Expert Group shall continue their work under the Agreements of 7 September 1993 and 29 November 1996, including the clarification of the line of actual control and the implementation of confidence building measures.



Article X



The Special Representatives on the boundary question shall continue their consultations in an earnest manner with the objective of arriving at an agreed framework for a boundary settlement, which will provide the basis for the delineation and demarcation of the India-China boundary to be subsequently undertaken by civil and military officials and surveyors of the two sides.



Article XI

This Agreement shall come into force as of the date of signature and is subject to amendment and addition by mutual agreement in writing between the two sides.

Signed in duplicate in New Delhi on 11 April, 2005, in the Hindi, Chinese and English languages, all three texts being equally authentic. In case of divergence, the English text shall prevail.

For the Government of the Republic of India

For the Government of the People's Republic of China

New Delhi
April 11, 2005
 

Singh

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What we don't factor in, is that, the Indian govt would only consider raising the Tibet issue is if those Indians in favour of Tibetan Independence speak up.

Amongst the billion Indians it is perhaps only the 300million strong Indian middle class which is empathetic to the Tibetan cause but this class is also the most disinterested in activism and politics.

If terrorism couldn't become an election issue, does Tibet stand a chance ? Don't worry Chinese members, India ain't raising Tibet bogey anytime soon.
 

Vladimir79

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Here is a straight question; Would Tibetans rise up against China in large numbers if you give them weapons or are they too pacifist?
 

Rage

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Thanks.

So, the only solution is both side make the compromise: china gives up the AP and india do the same on Aksai Chin. Can your parliament agree with this?

There is NO compromise. Our claim to Aksai Chin, and indeed P-O-K, is based on a legitimate, ratified instrument of secession signed by the rightful sovereign of the state at the time because Pakistan (foolishly) attempted to pre-empt its secession by an armed invasion. Your claim to Arun'aachal Pradesh is based on your illegal (de facto and procul vicis) occupation and invasion of Tibet. Furthermore, it is ostensibly on behalf of the Tibetan people, whose highest political and spiritual authority (ironically, deemed so by ancient chinese kings themselves during their inter-government transactions wit them, beginning with the militant Mongol Yuan dynasty that occupied China), have affirmed that "Arunaachal Pradesh is an indivisible part of India".
 

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Here is a straight question; Would Tibetans rise up against China in large numbers if you give them weapons or are they too pacifist?
WE DON'T KNOW THAT, WHAT WE KNOW IS THE MAOIST WILL DEFINITLY RISE UP AGAINSE GOV IN LARGE NUMBERS IF WE GIVE THEM WEAPONS. AND SO IS Chechnya
 
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WE DON'T KNOW THAT, WHAT WE KNOW IS THE MAOIST WILL DEFINITLY RISE UP AGAINSE INDIAN GOV IN LARGE NUMBERS IF WE GIVE THEM WEAPONS. AND SO IS Chechnya
isn't that what is already happening? what would be different?
 

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