India should recognize Tibetan freedom for its own good.

Ray

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There is indeed sympathy for the Tibetans who have lost their homeland and are here in India and around the world as refugees.

That sympathy is worldwide.

Govts have their own agenda and that does not always reflect the feelings of the people even if they do not express these feelings in the voting pattern in the elections.

India has no desire to snatch Tibet from China. It is for the Tibetans to decide their fate and India cannot be a proxy.

People are getting educated and are aware of their ethnicity and rights. Hence, they are restive. That is why the Tibetans and Uighurs are not ready to get Hanised unlike the other minorities in China. That is why there is this problem where they feel that the Hans are stealing their resources and they are not getting their due. It is all a chemistry of modernisation and awareness.

Same is the case with the Western Chinese who are not happy that it is only the coastal Chinese who are enjoying the fruits of modernisation and globalisation. That is why there is this faultline of rural and urban even in such a highly controlled societal environment as in China.
 

Ray

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You know what, you guys should really go out of your box more, your comments are like from a teenager or someone who was totally brainwashed. Try to see things from different angles, that will help you to be mature and successful. I know by saying communism is the root cause for anything you don't like is political correctness but please, that sounds too stupid when you are only doing discussion on a web forum, those propaganda only work to people who can't access enough information.
We are brainwashed? LOL

You must understand we can criticise the Govt and it is done without any fear. Have you seen our Parliament proceeding live on our TV? If those guys or our media or the aam admi (common man) are brainwashed, then brainwashing would have to have a new definition.

In China, you criticise your govt and you are up for 're-education', which in real terms means JAIL! What is your criminal justice system? The Court declares Hang and no sooner it is pronounced, the man is hung. Read how many have been hung for the Uighur rebellion. Apparently, there is no system of review and appeal as many countries including India has!

Therefore, please do not misuse the word.

In India, we see things from many angles, but it appears that you don't have that freedom. Therefore, it would be matured of you instead to appreciate the goodness of others system and not feel that a bird in a gilded cage is the ideal one!
 

badguy2000

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We are brainwashed? LOL

You must understand we can criticise the Govt and it is done without any fear. Have you seen our Parliament proceeding live on our TV? If those guys or our media or the aam admi (common man) are brainwashed, then brainwashing would have to have a new definition.

In China, you criticise your govt and you are up for 're-education', which in real terms means JAIL! What is your criminal justice system? The Court declares Hang and no sooner it is pronounced, the man is hung. Read how many have been hung for the Uighur rebellion. Apparently, there is no system of review and appeal as many countries including India has!

Therefore, please do not misuse the word.

In India, we see things from many angles, but it appears that you don't have that freedom. Therefore, it would be matured of you instead to appreciate the goodness of others system and not feel that a bird in a gilded cage is the ideal one!
I think you should visit china first,before you draw you cheap conclusion.

here are the standard mode when most Indians visit China:

1.astonished at the rapid developement and excellent infrastructure....

2.scold the inablity of Indian government,because they feel Indian government do nothing for India.

3.scold the Indian medias because they feel fooled by them
 

Atul

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I think you should visit china first,before you draw you cheap conclusion.

here are the standard mode when most Indians visit China:

1.astonished at the rapid developement and excellent infrastructure....

2.scold the inablity of Indian government,because they feel Indian government do nothing for India.

3.scold the Indian medias because they feel fooled by them
Dear BadGuy2000

1.astonished at the rapid developement and excellent infrastructure....
Answer- Every thing takes time, INDIA is gradually developing (Being a Democracy, any order that is released need approvals - we do not live in a country where in one person or party dictates terms with no opposition to it)

2.scold the inablity of Indian government,because they feel Indian government do nothing for India.
Answer- We are glad our Constitution has given us the Right to Speak, even if it is against our own Government, that's a privilege that you don't have. & Don't worry we are not riding a bubble that will bust, We have maintained a steady growth rate & will maintain it. Secondly, we have a option to choose our Government, this is an impossible Dream in your Country.

3.scold the Indian medias because they feel fooled by them.
Answer- Our Media is Free & not controlled and dominated by our government & we are able to see what the actual things happen or have a open forum to discuss Government policies, which is practically a impossible act in you Country.

Correct me if i am wrong.
 

nimo_cn

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Dear BadGuy2000

3.scold the Indian medias because they feel fooled by them.
Answer- Our Media is Free & not controlled and dominated by our government & we are able to see what the actual things happen or have a open forum to discuss Government policies, which is practically a impossible act in you Country.

Correct me if i am wrong.
Don't be so innocent and arrogant.
China has much more open forums of this kind than India does, and Chinese forum always has much more members than Indian forum.
You just dont know because you cant read Chinese.
 

Flint

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WE DON'T KNOW THAT, WHAT WE KNOW IS THE MAOIST WILL DEFINITLY RISE UP AGAINSE GOV IN LARGE NUMBERS IF WE GIVE THEM WEAPONS. AND SO IS Chechnya
isn't that what is already happening? what would be different?

Actually, contrary to claims on both sides of the border, the CCP has little interest in supporting the Maoist rebels in India. They see these "Maoists" as a ghost of their unhappy past. The current ideology of the CCP is Communist only in name. The rest of the communist setup has been hollowed out and the authoritarian system is retained with unbridled capitalism.
 

redragon

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Actually, contrary to claims on both sides of the border, the CCP has little interest in supporting the Maoist rebels in India. They see these "Maoists" as a ghost of their unhappy past. The current ideology of the CCP is Communist only in name. The rest of the communist setup has been hollowed out and the authoritarian system is retained with unbridled capitalism.
Exactly, you are right ! however it's a pity that some Indian refuse to accept the truth, China actually is not interested in Indian internal affairs, but if India keeps pushing this stupid "regonize Tibet", China will have to respond, this is exactly what I wanted to tell you and exactly the reason why Indian gov keeps saying Tibet is part of China. Some guys are living in their day dreams and very greedy in this forum, they even want to claim Tibet as part of India, do they really know what they are asking for? these people should be educated more about the reality.
 

ppgj

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Exactly, you are right ! however it's a pity that some Indian refuse to accept the truth, China actually is not interested in Indian internal affairs, but if India keeps pushing this stupid "regonize Tibet", China will have to respond,
CCP is not a saint. they do covertly and people do have valid suspicions.

Who helps the Naxals?

Asia Times Online :: South Asia news, business and economy from India and Pakistan

Ulfa admits to using China as base | Deccan Chronicle
 

roma

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Is this really true ?

I think you should visit china first,before you draw you cheap conclusion.

here are the standard mode when most Indians visit China:

1.astonished at the rapid developement and excellent infrastructure....

2.scold the inablity of Indian government,because they feel Indian government do nothing for India.

3.scold the Indian medias because they feel fooled by them
I think badguy has raised some rather interesting points
Are they true ?
Can we discuss here or start a new thread ?

added as edit;
otoh atul (above) has givena pretty good answer and i 've thanked him ( her ? ) for it .
Thanks for a good reply, Atul.
 

johnee

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I think you should visit china first,before you draw you cheap conclusion.

here are the standard mode when most Indians visit China:

1.astonished at the rapid developement and excellent infrastructure....

Definitely. If you show them the pathetic conditions in which your labour work to produce this miracle, then you will find that the same people will abhor China.

2.scold the inablity of Indian government,because they feel Indian government do nothing for India.

Yes, GOI deserves all the scolding. But wait moment, did you notice something here: Indians scold GOI openly without fear of any backlash by govt. You know what is that: Freedom.

If someone told them that in China this practice could land one in jail, then you will find that there admiration for your nation decrease at rapid rate.

3.scold the Indian medias because they feel fooled by them
Indian media is a fool, and they try to fool us. Having said that Indian media hardly says anything about china excepting the recent border violations by Chinese. So, I am not sure how can one blame indian media.

BTW, most of the time these indians are only shown the glamour and glitter of the shiney infrastructure and high GDP numbers, no one tells them the murkier details. If they knew them, they would react just like we in the forum do. After all, we are all Indians think more or less similarly. I remember, that I was quite enamoured by China and its fast growth(specially because of it asian identity), until I came to know the ugly truths of China.
 

roma

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There is indeed sympathy for the Tibetans who have lost their homeland and are here in India and around the world as refugees.

That sympathy is worldwide.
QUOTE]

partial quote.
no fight with ray here , probably semantics;

i feel theres heck of a lot of hypocracy and hope we can avoid calling it sympathy.
In freer countries say in europe the individual athlethes had the free opportunity to remain away from the 2008 Beijing olympics and only a handful chose to exercise this right.

they felt "sorry and sympathy" for the tibetans but when it came to making even the slightest sacrifices for something they suposedly believed in , somehow they couldnt.

that's (unfortunately ) not my idea of sympathy, rather i would call it hypocracy , or maybe to be more polite , semantics ?
The CPC must have been laughing
 

roma

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the next time china starts its border intrusions goi should begin reversal on it's recognitin of CPC jusidiction over TAR
 

Atul

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Don't be so innocent and arrogant.
China has much more open forums of this kind than India does, and Chinese forum always has much more members than Indian forum.
You just dont know because you cant read Chinese.
Brother, Accepted i cannot read chinese, & am Glad for that, Am also glad that i am not sneaking in Chinese forums & am on the forum of my own country.

To My Ignorance, thanks for enlightening me of the fact that Chinese are more free then us INDIAN's. i always considered Democracy was the best for of rule available for & by People.

But the "Tiananmen Square" Was a true display of Freedom/Human rights being pampered.:dfi-1:
 

roma

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Don't be so innocent and arrogant.
China has much more open forums of this kind than India does, and Chinese forum always has much more members than Indian forum.
You just dont know because you cant read Chinese.

Hi there Nimo,
whatever open-ness you claim to have on china forums ( fora ), i believe it is closely monitored and ip numbers are noted.
china residents are denied the open-ness to even get onto simple harmless websites such as youtube etc , so how can anyone claim open-ness is your country ? Logical ?
 

nimo_cn

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Atul, roma, review the the post i was replying to. I was simply refuting Atul's untruthful remarks about Chinese internet forums, jusk like you would refute us if you think we said something wrong about India. I was not doing comparison of freedom between China and India, so please understand that.

I believe no Chinese member here has ever said that common Chinese enjoy more freedom than common Indian do, we have never doubted that India is a free country.
But we feel sick when you guys assert that we have no freedom at all, do you realize how hilarious these assertions are? If we have no freedom on internet, how can that be possible for Chinese to be here? For the sake of God, this is an Indian forum, which is full of threads bashing China on human right record and democracy. According to you, the last thing CCP want to do is exposing us to this anti-CCP forum, so CCP must have this forum blocked, and if CCP found we are here, the first thing they would do is send us to labour camp, right? Then why are we still here? Well , let me guess, the only explanation you can come up with is that all the Chinese members here are paid by CCP to spread propaganda.
 

VayuSena1

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Sorry, I think india gov's already sold the tibet for china's recognition of sikkim.

For India’s Tibet turn, China to amend its Sikkim map

So, you need to give a new price for AP, how about Aksai chin?
How about we wait it out till the next few decades to talk evenly? It seems that success of the economy seems to have gone into your head. While China worked for its current status with dedication, complacency isn't going to do much good.

For your information, India is least concerned how you tend to draw your maps, whether you want to include Russia as a part or ours. As long as the region is in our hands, we don't concern ourselves with what China has to say. Unlike your country, our government can change meaning the change of stance is possible. Your darling Pakistan claims entire India to be a disputed land. Do we care? No. You are no different except much larger.

If CCP was that adept at taking lands from Indians, it would have done so. The simple reason why we are not able to retake entire Kashmir from Pakistan or you the so-called 'Southern Tibet' is because all the three countries in Asia have guns pointed at each other all the time.
 

ppgj

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The Blind Talking To The Deaf

Claude Arpi’s book exposes the painful repetitiveness of all contacts between China and Tibet, between China and the rest of the world. It expresses hope that China will change. One begs to differ.

Rajinder Puri

Recently Chinese troops threatened Indian workers building a road in Ladakh. They enforced stoppage of work. The Chinese themselves are building air strips for strategic purpose on the border. China curtly dismissed Indian protests. " China has a dispute with India on the border issue. The two sides should work together to ensure peace and stability in the border area until the pending dispute is resolved," China ’s foreign ministry spokesman told media. Defence Minister of State MMP Raju told reporters that China was merely building infrastructure, there was nothing to worry. Home minister Chidambaram advised media that only after studying the Chinese response will “the government take a view”. Can capitulation be more shameless? The questions are: Why is China acting in this manner? Why is China succeeding in having its way? Let us address both questions in that order.

The short answer to the first question is that China acts the way it does because of Tibet . Until it obtains total success in achieving its goal in Tibet it will not relent. Its Tibet policy has served it exceedingly well for six decades. Why should China change it? Tibet is crucial for totalitarian China . The minorities in China are roughly 8 percent of the population. The land mass they occupy is almost one third of China . Tibet and Xingjian are China ’s two largest sparsely populated provinces. China is especially paranoid about retaining Tibet because it forcibly annexed it as recently as 1959. Thereby Tibet ceased to be a buffer between China and India , which is the only Asian state that can potentially balance China . The annexation of an independent Tibet is irrefutably outlined in Claude Arpi’s book, Tibet: The Lost Frontier, which was published last year. Arpi, a Frenchman based in Auroville, is arguably India ’s most effective communicator of the Tibetan cause. He displays the research of a scholar and the insight of a strategist. This year he has written a follow-up book, Dharamsala and Beijing : the negotiations that never were, published by Lancer Publishers. The book is an eye opener. It meticulously describes the entire farcical engagement since inception between Beijing and the Dalai Lama’s aides. It also exposes the pathetic conduct of America and India that witnessed this dialogue.

In 1947 there was no India-China border. There was only the India-Tibet border. Chinese Premier Zhou Enlai hoodwinked Pandit Nehru. From then up till now the Chinese brazenly lied, indulged in doubletalk and blandly denied self evident truths. From then up till now India and America lamely accepted such contemptuous treatment. In 1954 India and China signed a treaty for 8 years by which among other things India recognized Tibet to be part of China . Beijing violated the assurances given in that treaty by transgressing the border. A confused Nehru decided to keep Parliament in the dark. He persisted with secrecy about Chinese encroachments during the following years. That was when this reviewer through an article in 1960 demanded Nehru’s resignation. As a junior he made this reasonable demand when media doyens critical of Nehru’s China policies such as S Mulgaokar and Frank Moraes could not bring themselves to state this. No wonder it took a child to blurt that the Emperor wore no clothes! Zhou told Nehru that he was ignorant about the McMahon Line until he studied the border problem. And today China claims Arunachal Pradesh to be part of China !

Beijing and Tibet broke ice. Beijing allowed fact-finding missions from Dharamsala to visit Tibet and view its progress. The Chinese genuinely thought that better roads and infrastructure had made Tibetans happy. The frenzied reception given to the Dalai Lama’s representatives by the Tibetans stunned them. Four succeeding missions were doomed to fail. I think the Chinese fail to empathize with Tibet because Tibetans believe in God. Most Chinese don’t. In 2005 former Defence Minister, Army Chief and Vice Chairman of the Central Military Commission, Chi Haotian, said in a speech: “Maybe you have now come to understand why we … promulgate atheism… if we let all Chinese people listen to God and follow God, who will obediently listen to us and follow us?”

Meanwhile many rounds of border talks between India and China were also held. These talks led nowhere. The door to China was opened in February 1976. Indira Gandhi during the Emergency ignored the Parliamentary resolution forbidding dealing with China until it vacated all illegally occupied territory. She established ambassadorial relations with Beijing . Why did she do this with a country that had betrayed her father and humiliated India ? Was it not simply because by that time through Kissinger’s exertions America had opened up to China ? The puppeteer could make the puppet somersault. On subsequent contacts Vajpayee, Rajiv Gandhi and Narasimha Rao needlessly kept repeating that Tibet was part of China .

Claude Arpi’s book exposes the painful repetitiveness of all contacts between China and Tibet , between China and the rest of the world. Tibet was like a woodpecker trying to penetrate a block of steel. The Chinese refused to countenance the slightest change in Tibet . In 1988 Dalai Lama made the Strasbourg Proposal and adopted the Middle Way , demanding autonomy instead of independence. Beijing kept calling him a ‘splitter’. China continued to lie and deceive the world to keep talks going. Only once in 60 years did a senior Chinese official speak the truth. In 1980 CCP General Secretary Hu Yaobang admitted:”Our party has let the Tibetan people down. We feel very bad!” Very soon he had to eat his words and fall in line. The world kept hoping for China to change. It was a futile hope.

Why have the Chinese succeeded in bringing the rest of the world to its knees? It is because the world is dominated by what I described in 2004 as the Real Axis of Evil comprising corporate America and China . Arpi’s book recalls the closed door dialogues between the Americans and Deng Xiaoping when relations were thawing. The contemptuous references to India was what bonded the two sides. Kissinger was nauseatingly cloying as he sucked up to the Chinese. President Gerald Ford, not the brightest President, intervened in the talks with no impact. Ridiculing him Lyndon Johnson once said: “Ford needs both hands to find his ass!”

The architect of the evil axis on the American side was Henry Kissinger, once described widely as a war criminal but ending up as a Nobel Peace Prize laureate. A little after Sino-American trade blossomed following Deng’s reforms, Kissinger Associates Inc. took birth. It was a consultancy that acted as facilitator of deals between China and corporate America . Kissinger became the central adviser for the Business Coalition for US-China Trade which has 1000 of the largest American corporations as its members. Kissinger helped set up China International Investment Corporation (CITIC), the Chinese government's banking merchant for doing business with the US . Kissinger Associates roped in top level former officials including Alexander Haig, former National Security Advisor Brent Scowcroft, former Secretary of State Lawrence Eagleburger, international economist Alan Stoga, and investment banker T. Jefferson Cunningham III. No wonder fierce public protest blocked Bush from appointing Kissinger to head the 9/11 Commission. Kissinger was forced to back out. CNN’s Wolf Blitzer asked Kissinger: “Kissinger Associates… has not… detailed the work it does. There is the possibility of a conflict of interest?"

Kissinger replied: “No law firm discloses its clients. I will discuss my clients fully with the counsel of the White House…” Kissinger was comfortable with the White House regardless of which administration governed America . For instance, President Obama's trusted Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner worked for three years with Kissinger Associates before occupying his current post. Over the years Kissinger Associates has grown exponentially with a reach in all continents. Among other giants the American International Group (AIG), condemned for squandering millions as executive bonuses, is a strategic partner with Kissinger Associates. Kissinger is reputed to be one of the key benefactors of the stimulus bailout after the recent economic meltdown. Kissinger Associates is the shadowy centrepiece of corporate America and business partner of China . Totalitarian China is opaque for foreigners. But it has free access to democratic nations. It creates strong vested interest in their biggest business firms. In democracies big business influences politics. Ergo, China influences policy in democratic nations. With a five to one adverse balance of trade with China , with trillions of dollars held as US Treasury bills by China , is America in any position to confront Beijing ? Why, the US dare not confront even China ’s proxy, Pakistan !

Claude Arpi at the conclusion of his book expresses hope that China will change. He points to individuals in China who speak the truth about Tibet , such as Phunwang, the Tibetan communist who led Chinese troops into Tibet . Subsequently he spent years in jail because he tried to faithfully follow Marxism. He was released and was invited to administer Tibet . He refused. He knew how that would end. He stayed on in mainland China . There are Chinese intellectuals like Zhang Boshu and Wang Lixiong who speak objectively and constructively about Tibet . One begs to differ with Arpi. China will not change unless it is compelled. Given the Axis of Evil little hope might be placed on America . Only if India summons the will to detach itself from the coattails of Uncle Sam can China be compelled. After 1962 only once did India assert itself against China . In 1986 Chinese troops encroached into Sumdorong Chu in NEFA, now Arunachal Pradesh. Army Chief General Sundarji airlifted an entire brigade in what was called Operation Falcon to counter the Chinese. Deng Xiaoping warned that China would “teach India a lesson”. War seemed imminent. Sundarji was criticized The General stood firm and was prepared to quit. The government buttoned its lip. The Chinese backed down. Today there are effective ways of calling China ’s bluff to enforce its climb down without resort to military action. It is futile to outline them given a government incapable of independent action. Until India summons the will to act independently it must live with a reality that is worse than pathetic. It is tragic.

www.outlookindia.com | The Blind Talking To The Deaf
 

no smoking

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How about we wait it out till the next few decades to talk evenly? It seems that success of the economy seems to have gone into your head. While China worked for its current status with dedication, complacency isn't going to do much good.

For your information, India is least concerned how you tend to draw your maps, whether you want to include Russia as a part or ours. As long as the region is in our hands, we don't concern ourselves with what China has to say. Unlike your country, our government can change meaning the change of stance is possible. Your darling Pakistan claims entire India to be a disputed land. Do we care? No. You are no different except much larger.

If CCP was that adept at taking lands from Indians, it would have done so. The simple reason why we are not able to retake entire Kashmir from Pakistan or you the so-called 'Southern Tibet' is because all the three countries in Asia have guns pointed at each other all the time.
So, what do you suggest?

The simple fact is that your gov won't change the stance on tibet in almost 50 years. Your gov won't waste a single indian blood for tibet cause. Dalai was and is used as a fly to annoy chinese gov.
 

CS1.6

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watch your words, please

Brother, Accepted i cannot read chinese, & am Glad for that, Am also glad that i am not sneaking in Chinese forums & am on the forum of my own country.

:
i do have problems with your attitude to Chinese posters here or any other posters from other countries;

this is an Indian forum, that's right, but it is an open forum, and i did not see any forum rules of forbidding the foreign member register;

and when we came in, we mark the nationality clearly, we let people know where we are from, this is not "sneaking in";

if any of the Mod told me this is a forum that not welcome Chinese posters, i will never ever come back again, but if there is no such rules, then i am as free enter in this forum as you do;
 

Armand2REP

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Atul, roma, review the the post i was replying to. I was simply refuting Atul's untruthful remarks about Chinese internet forums, jusk like you would refute us if you think we said something wrong about India. I was not doing comparison of freedom between China and India, so please understand that.

I believe no Chinese member here has ever said that common Chinese enjoy more freedom than common Indian do, we have never doubted that India is a free country.
But we feel sick when you guys assert that we have no freedom at all, do you realize how hilarious these assertions are? If we have no freedom on internet, how can that be possible for Chinese to be here? For the sake of God, this is an Indian forum, which is full of threads bashing China on human right record and democracy. According to you, the last thing CCP want to do is exposing us to this anti-CCP forum, so CCP must have this forum blocked, and if CCP found we are here, the first thing they would do is send us to labour camp, right? Then why are we still here? Well , let me guess, the only explanation you can come up with is that all the Chinese members here are paid by CCP to spread propaganda.
Of course Indians are more free than Chinese. Do Chinese have freedom? Freedom to buy Chinese products, or pirated copies of others. Freedom to start up business, no matter how reckless it is. Freedom to breath clean air, if they can find it. Freedom to worship, in state sanctioned institutions. Freedom to surf the internet, on sites not blacklisted by the government. For anyone who has tried to surf the internet on Chinese servers, freedom is not what anyone with open internet access would call it. Chinese live a modern life, but it is highly controlled and moderated. People living in the West or India would not say Chinese have much freedom. They have freedom to exist, not much else.
 

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