India Russia Relations

asianobserve

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Russia can no longer be India's reliable ally. This is because Russia will now prioritize China over anyone else.

Russia now only looks at India as a cash cow.

US and India has more confluence if natiinal interests now. So any rational minded person should conclude rightly that closer relations between these 2 is the best alliance right now. But both must understand that not all their interests will align. Even so the bigger and more pressing common grounds should always prevail.

As always, network and connect. 2 heads are better than 1.
 

LondonParisTokyo

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We need strategic partners. Look at the US dispensation in the last few months and tell me - do you really think that they will be able to continue supporting us the way it was during the Trump or Obama era? Biden-Harris are viciously anti-Indian right from day one despite India showing all the favorable signs to wanting to have an alliance.

US-India strategic dialog, QUAD, Malabar, SIMBEX, Yudh Abhyas, etc.

I am not saying that we need to go into the stupid NAM again. NO. I am against the NAM nonsense that nearly turned us communists in the last 7 decades.

But we need a PLAN B. Something more serious with France and Israel, that allows us to be strong enough as an independent power but at the same time, gets us the right partners who are willing to enter a new world order with a new set of geopolitical concepts of strategic alignment. I am not saying that there are no friendly forces in the US; there are and I'd like our nation to cultivate the ties to the best possible extent.

Look at the current USA under Biden-Harris and tell me honestly; do you really think that they look like they are ready to fight China militarily in case PLA invades Taiwan? Do you think that the current war-weary US would ever push for their own boots on the ground to fight the PLA? We thankfully don't need the boots-on-ground part, but the Taiwanese do.

All I am saying is that we should do everything to weaken China's international position enough to get good favors in a mutually beneficial way without getting sucked into committed alliances.

But we are also going to get sucked into the Thucydides' Trap. It is inevitable with the Kissinger Mentality (KM) still pervades the US deep state. Russia may no longer be the reliable ally, but right now with the messy world situation, no major power is.

Jaishankar's idea to keep commitments limited to mutual strategic interests is the smartest move. The only thing that is lagging in this strategy is the speed of military capacity build-up. Faster than earlier but not fast enough.
Forget Israel man. I don't know why dhimmis love their biggest enemy. France? Sure. Russia? Sure. US? Sure. Except you're forgetting the key of the khichdi: self-reliance. Instead of constantly looking for handouts (the reality is to an outside observer, this is exactly what it looks like), figure out how to do things domestically. You will never leapfrog technologically, it's just not possible. However recent advancements have made it far simpler to do things. Stop relying so much on Keynsian garbage and Nehruvian garbage. It doesn't work. Nobody will give India a handout, but the reality is what you're purporting is exactly what sounds like a handout.
 

THESIS THORON

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Russia can no longer be India's reliable ally. This is because Russia will now prioritize China over anyone else.

Russia now only looks at India as a cash cow.

US and India has more confluence if natiinal interests now. So any rational minded person should conclude rightly that closer relations between these 2 is the best alliance right now. But both must understand that not all their interests will align. Even so the bigger and more pressing common grounds should always prevail.

As always, network and connect. 2 heads are better than 1.
yeah the relation is not as same as before but still we are getting tech from russians only, which us will never give.

but as you know that us is not a ally on whome one can trust, see what happened with afg, god knows what will happen with taiwan.
 

asianobserve

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yeah the relation is not as same as before but still we are getting tech from russians only, which us will never give.

but as you know that us is not a ally on whome one can trust, see what happened with afg, god knows what will happen with taiwan.

Does Russia give away its latest tech?

From what I know Russia is selling more military hardware and tech to China. See the various new toys China is producing? I see a lot of Soviet and Russian tech...
 

asianobserve

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More importantly, whatever latest military tech Russia is offering to India like S-400, Russia has already offered it to China. So what good is S-400 to India if China already knows how it works and its weaknesses? Even if techs like S-400 is to be used against Pakistan, not China (so what AD will India use against China?), still I'm 100% sure Pakistan has already been allowed access to China's S-400.

This faithfulness to Russian mitary tech is really a headscratcher to me....
 
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asianobserve

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yeah the relation is not as same as before but still we are getting tech from russians only, which us will never give.

but as you know that us is not a ally on whome one can trust, see what happened with afg, god knows what will happen with taiwan.

That's a naive outlook about foreign relations. Everybody is after their own national interest. But in the pursuit of your national interests who do you have the most common strategic outlook with? To them you must look for alliance.

Then about what will tomorrow bring? Analyze it now, explore possibilities, and be ready to execute. In the meantime, prioritize.
 

Covfefe

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Does Russia give away its latest tech?

From what I know Russia is selling more military hardware and tech to China. See the various new toys China is producing? I see a lot of Soviet and Russian tech...
They don't, but whatever tech anyone could give to us, it has been only the Russians(and to some extent the Israelis and the French). India's strategic program, missile programs, radar programs, naval warships programs- all of them have significant Russian history and backing- something that the US would have never given to us. Their relationship with China is their necessity, and a system doesn't become useless just because the other guy too has it and knows how it works.
 

asianobserve

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They don't, but whatever tech anyone could give to us, it has been only the Russians(and to some extent the Israelis and the French). India's strategic program, missile programs, radar programs, naval warships programs- all of them have significant Russian history and backing- something that the US would have never given to us. Their relationship with China is their necessity, and a system doesn't become useless just because the other guy too has it and knows how it works.

Nobody will give their latest military tech to anyone.

Russian military tech is now easily accessed by China. So what's the point of buying Russian when it's edge is nullified if used against its intended target (since they either have it too or already kniw about it intimately)?

Turkey, SoKor are good examples on how to take advantage of Western military tech. These countries have smaller economies and total purchasing power than India. Begin from lower tech level then use indigenization to develop higher tech domestic designs.
 

Covfefe

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Nobody will give their latest military tech to anyone.

Russian military tech is now easily accessed by China. So what's the point of buying Russian when it's edge is nullified if used against its intended target (since they either have it too or already kniw about it intimately)?

Turkey, SoKor are good examples on how to take advantage of Western military tech. These countries have smaller economies and total purchasing power than India. Begin from lower tech level then use indigenization to develop higher tech domestic designs.
I know I'm going to regret this, but anyway.

Weapons do not work that way. Indian subs, Indian Brahmos, Indian S400, Indian Tanks, Indian Radars, Indian missiles do not become useless just because China has brought a few of those from Russia as well. The missile will bloody will shoot down a Chinese jet if it enters the Indian airspace, the radar will detect them, the ships will fire those Missiles- you need availability of weaponry and then develop an "edge" on your own. Now, how many of these articles I just mentioned are developed by either Turkey or South Korea? Making drones and a few artillery systems don't even come close. Turkey took help of German designers for its fighter program, so no credit to the US anyway. The components for TAI-X or Hurjet are again off the shelf purchasers with no transfer of technology or sale of IP.

India's reliance on Russia for defence technologies is different from its reliance on America to buy off the shelf weapons. American MIC would never want any single piece of bullet to made elsewhere but the US if it were upto them. This whole AUKUS drama is largely a comprehensive military sales program to the Aussies- nuclear subs, cruise missiles are already ticked off the chart. By the time Aussies get those subs, China would have fielded more than the total number of subs with the US and the Aussies.
 

asianobserve

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I know I'm going to regret this, but anyway.

Weapons do not work that way. Indian subs, Indian Brahmos, Indian S400, Indian Tanks, Indian Radars, Indian missiles do not become useless just because China has brought 7a few of those from Russia as well. The missile will bloody will shoot down a Chinese jet if it enters the Indian airspace, the radar will detect them, the ships will fire those Missiles- you need availability of weaponry and then develop an "edge" on your own. Now, how many of these articles I just mentioned are developed by either Turkey or South Korea? Making drones and a few artillery systems don't even come close. Turkey took help of German designers for its fighter program, so no credit to the US anyway. The components for TAI-X or Hurjet are again off the shelf purchasers with no transfer of technology or sale of IP.

India's reliance on Russia for defence technologies is different from its reliance on America to buy off the shelf weapons. American MIC would never want any single piece of bullet to made elsewhere but the US if it were upto them. This whole AUKUS drama is largely a comprehensive military sales program to the Aussies- nuclear subs, cruise missiles are already ticked off the chart. By the time Aussies get those subs, China would have fielded more than the total number of subs with the US and the Aussies.

Proper military powers invest heavily on espionage of their opponents weapons tech, trying to understand their capabilities and characterstics. The Americans, Russians, Israelis, etc. spend so much money and even lives to do it. Why is that?
 
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Covfefe

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Proper military powers invest heavily on espionage of their opponents weapons tech, trying to understand their capabilities and characterstics. The Americans, Russians, Israelis, etc. spend so much money and even lives to do it. Why is that?
Will the US give it's missile, subs, destroyer, radar, and other technologies? Yes or no?
 

Covfefe

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As to older techs, yes. As to cutting edge, no. But they will sell you cutting edge weapons.
Don't really see any American firm participating in such bids then, why? P15B, Brahmos, Akula class subs- are fairly "cutting edge" (whatever that means). Why has no American company placed their bid for submarine program in India? Not offering even their "older tech"?
 

IndianHawk

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Russia can no longer be India's reliable ally. This is because Russia will now prioritize China over anyone else.

Russia now only looks at India as a cash cow.

US and India has more confluence if natiinal interests now. So any rational minded person should conclude rightly that closer relations between these 2 is the best alliance right now. But both must understand that not all their interests will align. Even so the bigger and more pressing common grounds should always prevail.

As always, network and connect. 2 heads are better than 1.
We will talk about all this alliance with America only after a) usa provides india tech for nuke submarine reactor.
And b) complete support for indian permanent membership to UN with veto power.

Otherwise india and usa are just two countries with some similar interests. Nothing more.
 

asianobserve

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Don't really see any American firm participating in such bids then, why? P15B, Brahmos, Akula class subs- are fairly "cutting edge" (whatever that means). Why has no American company placed their bid for submarine program in India? Not offering even their "older tech"?

America does not produce conventional subs and their nuclear subs tech are out of reach to anyone save UK and now Australia. Perhaps if India can be as aligned with the US as Australia then maybe nuclear sub tech can be made available.

US even preferred to limit its purchase of expensive F-22 instead of trying to bring down the cost by selling it to its closest allies (they're begging to buy F-22).

I'm 100% sure that if the roles are reversed, US is in India's level, India too would not share its cutting edge weapons with the US.

As to Bhramos, it was a JV. I think US campanies do JV depending on the level of clearance of the client. Australia can do JV with Boeing on Loyal Wingman. Other US companies supply critical tech to SoKor weapons programs, just think of SoKor destroyers, jets, tanks, etc. The list can go on and on.
 

Tshering22

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That was one speedy visit by Putin. 5-hours and everything wrapped up! Rescheduling China visit, coming to India that too in the middle of such a tense stand-off indicates that the Ruskies are up to something or some shit is about to hit the fan:


Apparently, 2+2 format is going to be the way forward.

Looks like things aren't hunky-dory between Xinnie the Poop & Papa Bear.
 

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