India Russia Relations

Assassin 2.0

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Age old ties , yet they sell pantsir to pakis.
Pakistan don't have pantsir and come on in real world there is nothing like friendship. Everything is based on mutual interest. Even if Russians sell equipment to Pakistan we should not be afraid of that too.
 

Villager

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Age old ties , yet they sell pantsir to pakis.
What would you suggest in their position? We belong to a nation which wants support from other nations but doesn't want to support other nations on their issues. Principally I think Russia might very well be our best friend/brotherly nation. Only if we are willing to rise up for ourselves which we do seem to have begun doing albeit late.
 

Maharaj samudragupt

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What would you suggest in their position? We belong to a nation which wants support from other nations but doesn't want to support other nations on their issues. Principally I think Russia might very well be our best friend/brotherly nation. Only if we are willing to rise up for ourselves which we do seem to have begun doing albeit late.
Armenia, no statement from mea bobos .
Even Tushar Kapoor of golmaal fame, can give better statements.
O aap ooiaaoi mayoo
 

Maharaj samudragupt

Kritant Parashu
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Pakistan don't have pantsir and come on in real world there is nothing like friendship. Everything is based on mutual interest. Even if Russians sell equipment to Pakistan we should not be afraid of that too.
Yes , true .
I want a war to happen in pak and india .
And we do some dirty work like skull towers etc in their cities
 

Tshering22

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Age old ties , yet they sell pantsir to pakis.
Pantasir are defensive weapons; it is not like we don't buy from their adversaries man. Let's be fair; the US, European countries and even France was neutral and sold to everyone both offensive and defensive. This included Pakistan. But Russia never did. They only started selling stuff when China started funding them and bailing them out.

India isn't big enough to provide an alternative to China for Russian trade; EU has sanctioned them along with US.

That leaves very little option for them as well.
 

rock127

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SuSwamy article... what do you say guys? :hmm:


Russians earlier were friends of the Nehru family, not of India.

New Delhi: Is Russia a reliable friend as it has been propagated for the last 70 years? Can we trust Russia anymore? For China, Russia was a trusted friend and a patron of the communist parivar from 1949 to 1960. Then at China’s weakest moment in 1960, faced with a gigantic collapse of the ill-conceived Great Forward Movement and a huge famine, when between 16 to 32 million Chinese died due to starvation, Moscow ordered the withdrawal from China all its industrial projects, its blueprints, and technical staff, resulting in the collapse China’s industrial sector.

China then in the mid-1960s was hit by the chaos created by the Red Guards of the Great People’s Cultural Revolution [1966-77] under Chairman Mao’s direction, disrupting universities, workers’ trade unions, Communist Party structure and social security. Deng Xiaoping was forced to wear a dunce’s cap and asked to clean canteen tables for a living.

China’s recovery began after Chairman Mao’s demise in 1976, and with Deng Xiaoping returning to the helm of the Chinese Communist Party leadership in 1980. Beijing’s border war with Moscow in 1977 for rival claims on the island Jan Bao Dao in the middle of the Ussuri, a border river, in Siberia, convinced the US leadership to enter into a strategic and economic cooperation with China, as a counterweight to the Soviet Union.

Thus began the flowering of China’s economy, its international presence, and revamp of universities by joint ventures generously provided by the US for its enlightened national interest to counter the Soviet Union with China on board.

Soviet Union had sued for peace with US to sideline Chinese collaboration with US, but the concessions that US President Ronald Reagan sought from Moscow, undermined and then unravelled Soviet Union itself in 1991.

It began with Gorbachev introducing Perestroika [re-structuring of the economy] and Glasnost [openness of dissent]. The Berlin Wall was torn down and Germany united. Poland, Hungary and Czechoslovakia broke free from being Soviet Union’s colonies.

Finally, in August 1991, the Soviet Union broke, unravelling into 16 countries. The communist propaganda that there was “no poverty in Soviet Union, no unemployment in Soviet Union, and no inflation in Soviet Union” ended with the whimper that “there was no Soviet Union”.

Moscow is now the capital of Russia only. Formally it is not a communist country. It a de facto dictatorship of Vladimir Putin, who recently won a rigged election to be President of Russia till 2036. Xi Jinping has been elected by the CPC recently for life!

The transition of Russia has been amazing. First there was the Czarist monarchy called Russia, which the royalty ruled from St Petersburg as capital. Then there emerged through a revolution led by Lenin the Bolshevik state, and after Lenin’s death was followed by Joseph Stalin’s communist Soviet Union with its capital in Moscow. Today there is Putin’s Oligarchic Russia being ruled from Moscow. These the government formations spanned a century since 1920.

But the bottom line has remained the same—a government led by dictatorship, which is expansionist, an oligarchy and headed for bankruptcy.

The Indian connection with Russia, that was Soviet Union, was through leaders like Jawaharlal Nehru and his clique, bolstered by bureaucrats educated in Cambridge and Oxford like P.N. Haksar, G. Parthsarathy, Nurul Hasan, and several intellectuals who were weaned by Soviet spies during Stalin’s tenure [that lasted till 1953] such as Kim Philby during our Freedom Struggle.

This Leftist syndicate adopted the Soviet Union’s economic system known as the “command economy” once India became free. It means the state will enjoy strategic and commanding heights.

There were others too who influenced Nehru: the Marxist-Leninist minded Krishna Menon, who led Nehru to lead the nation to disaster in our China relations. Another was Edwina Mountbatten [who had a “special relationship” with Nehru], who herself was weaned by a “special friend” and singer Paul Robeson, who in turn had been influenced by communism and Russia.

Nehru was fooled into thinking that leaders in Moscow were permanent friends, but in fact we Indians were more like “Pavlovian dogs”, that is, those who complied on signals from Moscow.

The relevance of all this history is that most Indians still think that “Russians” are India’s permanent friends, little realising that in international affairs there are “no permanent friends, no permanent enemies, but only permanent interests of nations”.

Moreover, Russians earlier were friends of the Nehru family, but not of India. Although clinching proofs are kept in frozen vaults in tight fisted Russian archives, most knowledgeable Indian patriots suspect that Netaji Subash Bose, Lal Bahadur Shastri, Deendayal Upadhyaya, and Sanjay Gandhi were assassinated by the KGB to ensure secure entry into the top positions for Nehru, Indira Gandhi, and Sonia Gandhi.

Books written by ex KGB agents and Yelstin government intellectuals such as Mitrokhin and Albats establish the KGB connections of the Nehru “dynasty”.
Putin is a trained KGB officer turned politician. In 2006 he personally escorted Ms Sonia Gandhi to the Vladimir jail near St Petersburg, where Sonia Gandhi’s father Stephano Maino as Hitler’s army jawan, was taken prisoner during World War II and kept in jail. He was let off early from Vladimir jail by the Russians reportedly because he was cooperative in the KGB interrogation. When Maino returned home to Orbassano, Italy, he renamed his three daughters with Russian names. Antonia became thus Sonia.

The question thus is: Will Putin’s Russia be a genuine friend of India today in our border war with China? The answer will come when we understand what kind of Russian-Chinese friendship exists today. The short answer to the question is “no”.

The reason is that it is clear the Russians act according to the interests of China. That is, Russia is a “junior partner” of China. Russia, according to Putin’s 23 October 2020 statement, “could enter into a military alliance with China”.

Since India purchased the S-400 air to surface rocket attachment for jet fighters in 2018, India has been increasingly relying on Russia for weapons. India appears to have accepted Russia as a de facto mediator in the conflict with China since 18 April 2020 in Ladakh.

However, this is most inadvisable, since in June 2017, Chinese President Xi Jinping described Russian President Vladimir Putin as “my best friend and colleague”. This was not a casual compliment usually paid at banquets during bilateral summits, and for the media. It was a revelation of the things to come.

As in his perceptive op-ed piece in the Hindu, our former Foreign Secretary, Vijay Gokhale, IFS, has pointed out, there are “three pillars on which the Sino-Russian partnership rests”. He concludes his well informed analysis, with which this author fully concurs, by saying that “Moscow is in real danger of permanently becoming the ‘junior partner’ of Beijing”.

At no time since the emergence of the People’s Republic of China in 1949 has such lopsided public bonhomie been seen between leaders of Russia and China.

Soviet Union, of which Russia was a component, had become a hot enemy of China after 1958 when Chairman Mao launched the Great Leap Forward project.

To collapse this project, the Soviets led by Khruschev cancelled all the industrial projects that were being implemented to modernise China, and also withdrew all the experts along with the blueprints sent to China.

Not only did the Great Leap Forward become a disaster for agriculture, but industry got stunted, and because of terrible drought about 16 million to 32 million died in the ensuing famine in 1960-61.

For the Americans, thus, the road to Beijing got opened. Within the decade of the 1960s, American and Chinese negotiators met in Warsaw, Poland, to work out a thaw in relations.

In 1972, the US changed its two-decade-old stand and voted to admit China into the United Nations and invited it to take the seat of permanent member with a veto at the UN Security Council. China was greatly benefitted by the US granting it the Most Favoured Trade Clause, thus opening US markets to China, and for Joint Ventures to enable China to produce with its cheap and captive labour, and accelerate Chinese GDP at more than 10-12% growth rate for a decade. China soon rose from 9th position in GDP ranking to second position by the year 2000.

Today, the Kremlin seems to believe that the road to revival of Russian power and prestige similarly runs through collaboration. But China is not of a one-dimensional mind. It had fooled Jawaharlal Nehru with “Hindi Chini Bhai Bhai” as well as in 18 meetings of Xi Jinping with our Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

Neither Indian PM had any idea what China could do. I had, as a patriotic Indian, been warning BJP since 2017 that China would do what it did.

Hence, not to be disappointed or feel jilted today firstly a proper appraisal of the Sino-Russian relationship will be critical to our foreign policy calculus. As Mr Gokhale states, the disintegration of the Soviet Union essentially negated the Russian threat in Chinese eyes. Both these trends will likely continue despite the recent tensions in Sino-US relations.

Sino-Russian partnership currently rests on peace at the frontier, trade and Chinese funds for Russia to escape the effects of US sanctions, and a shared distrust of American democracy and institutions.

Currently, Sino-Russian trade has more than doubled. Russia’s central bank has increased its Chinese currency reserves from less than 1% to over 15%. Germany is no more the principal supplier of industrial plant and technology to Russia. China is! Action is taking place in multilateral forums such as BRICS, increasingly sophisticated joint military exercises, and pooling of influence with countries such as Iran.

The S-400 missile system built by Russia and sold to India has Chinese electronics. This has alienated the US, which was about to sell advanced military hardware to India, but has put it on hold because US cannot risk Chinese or Russian espionage in India on advanced US weapons systems.

Hence, India has to make a choice: Either we partner US strategically or Russia and China together. If we have a conflict with China, Russia therefore cannot be trusted, nor if we do, will the US trust us. Hence, this dream of isolating China by trusting Russia is short-sighted. Russia is no more, if ever since 1992, a friend of India in the sense of standing up with India against China. India, in a border war with China, does not need allies.

But if China expands the war arena with India, then of course the Quad arrangement with Vietnam, Sri Lanka, Indonesia and other nations can form a grand alliance.

Dr Subramanian Swamy is a sixth term MP. He has taught economics at Harvard and at IIT Delhi, and has been senior Union Cabinet Minister of Commerce and Law & Justice.
 

shade

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For *now* there is no need to choose between Russia and US.
SuSu Swamy doing his 4D Chess US shilling as usual.

Most guys on this forum know that country-to-country relationships are based on mutual interests, not FRiEnDsHiP
 

shade

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Also SuSu Swamy should not blatantly spew lies like "All electronics of S400 are from China", he sounds like Pravin Sawhney's AI, cyberwarfare, drone etc when he says shit like this.
 

rock127

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For *now* there is no need to choose between Russia and US.
SuSu Swamy doing his 4D Chess US shilling as usual.

Most guys on this forum know that country-to-country relationships are based on mutual interests, not FRiEnDsHiP
Right, he is not telling something new but giving a subtle warning to Indians who love sleeping always.

As a FACT India is ramping up it's defense and trying to localize as much and ASAP. We already have French, Israeli hardware in our arsenal to mix it up and not depend on a single source. I heard India might get F-18 for Navy.

Also India is a big power now specially in last 6 years! The pressure is on other countries to have a good relationship with us on mutual basis. The QUAD is answer.

Russia must be covertly interested in Chinese power being blunted or else China might eat up Russian land and Russia could not do much even when it was a super power. Russia had to actually give up(LOSING WAR) on it's claimed land to China. :lol:


Also SuSu Swamy should not blatantly spew lies like "All electronics of S400 are from China", he sounds like Pravin Sawhney's AI, cyberwarfare, drone etc when he says shit like this.
Yes, now that "Chinese electronics in S-400" is not easy to digest so wanted to know from more people if they have more info regarding that.
 

johnq

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That article is twisting facts. Even US weapons have components made in China, just not sensitive components, because a lot of manufacturing has moved to China. It's the same with Russia and most other countries that sell weapons. But Trump has been trying to get rid of ALL made in China components from US weapons, and I suspect Putin will try to do the same now as everyone has rightfully grown more suspicious of the Chinese after they gifted Covid-19 to the world.
 

shade

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Right, he is not telling something new but giving a subtle warning to Indians who love sleeping always.

As a FACT India is ramping up it's defense and trying to localize as much and ASAP. We already have French, Israeli hardware in our arsenal to mix it up and not depend on a single source. I heard India might get F-18 for Navy.

Also India is a big power now specially in last 6 years! The pressure is on other countries to have a good relationship with us on mutual basis. The QUAD is answer.

Russia must be covertly interested in Chinese power being blunted or else China might eat up Russian land and Russia could not do much even when it was a super power. Russia had to actually give up(LOSING WAR) on it's claimed land to China. :lol:




Yes, now that "Chinese electronics in S-400" is not easy to digest so wanted to know from more people if they have more info regarding that.
Low end and non critical components mainly, you can be sure those fancy radars and electronics and comms equipment between missile and the truck that launches it is all Russian only.
China ordered Su35 in small quantities a year ago only because it supposedly has special radar and improved engines.
You can guess what they intend to do with the Su35.

By the time S400 is cloned, Russia will have S600.
 

johnq

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Low end and non critical components mainly, you can be sure those fancy radars and electronics and comms equipment between missile and the truck that launches it is all Russian only.
China ordered Su35 in small quantities a year ago only because it supposedly has special radar and improved engines.
You can guess what they intend to do with the Su35.

By the time S400 is cloned, Russia will have S600.
Russians are no fools. This is why everything they sell to China is severely downgraded in hardware and software, because they know Chinese will copy everything.
Chinese have infiltrated Indian media and politicians, and want India-Russia friendly relations to end, hence the anti-Russia articles. This is why it is always a bad idea to open the door to the Chinese, because once they enter, they destroy and isolate you. China wants to isolate Russia (by destroying India-Russia friendly relations) so that Russia has no choice left but to ally with China (China wants high end Russian defence technology). This is why it is very important for both India and Russia to keep China and Chinese agents out, and makes India-Russia friendship very important.
 

shade

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Russians are no fools. This is why everything they sell to China is severely downgraded in hardware and software, because they know Chinese will copy everything.
Chinese have infiltrated Indian media and politicians, and want India-Russia friendly relations to end, hence the anti-Russia articles. This is why it is always a bad idea to open the door to the Chinese, because once they enter, they destroy and isolate you. China wants to isolate Russia (by destroying India-Russia friendly relations) so that Russia has no choice left but to ally with China (China wants high end Russian defence technology). This is why it is very important for both India and Russia to keep China and Chinese agents out, and makes India-Russia friendship very important.
Half this Russo-Chinese "friendship" meme is because the US deepstate is after Russia for god knows what reasons, driving them into Chinese arms.
Chinese pose a much greater threat to Russia because of their land grab tendencies, but it's the devil and the deep blue sea for Russians.
Btw the anti Russian articles are from US shills, subbu swamy is basically one, this abhijit mitra iyer is also one.
 

johnq

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Half this Russo-Chinese "friendship" meme is because the US deepstate is after Russia for god knows what reasons, driving them into Chinese arms.
Chinese pose a much greater threat to Russia because of their land grab tendencies, but it's the devil and the deep blue sea for Russians.
Btw the anti Russian articles are from US shills, subbu swamy is basically one, this abhijit mitra iyer is also one.
It took me a long time to realize that Chinese have infiltrated US deep state through money and investments, and that could also be why all this anti-Russia stuff started. We already know of Biden's financial connections with China through his son. Then there is the Obama produced documentary about Chinese and American workers which seems like a camouflaged pro-China propaganda piece. I wouldn't be surprised if Chinese had leverage on people in US government in key positions, like congressmen (of both parties) and judges.
 
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sorcerer

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Russia's top defence export body offers technology to India for production

 

asaffronladoftherisingsun

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Russians have always helped us militarily, no questions asked, and regardless of who says what. The claim may seem facile on the face of it, but there is no better imprimatur than recorded history to shut up sceptics. Bharat’s rock stable relationship with Russia, and its earlier avatar, the Soviet Union, right through the Cold War is cast in stone.Which is not to say that we should neglect our relationship with amerimutts. That we cannot afford given the economic compulsions. But shitty half dick laws like Countering amerimutts Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA) pose a permanent threat to our defence interests.Putin is set to rule for another 12 years after the expiry of his current term in 2024. Like Modi, he is nationalist to the core, a non-nonsense man, assertive, beyond being bought, a chastiser of liberals, and a man of his word .Putin travels the world but knows whom to implicitly trust. He knows Bharat’s national interests converge with Russia’s even if we have not given the relationship the attention it deserves after the Soviet break-up .

WE MUST NOT FORGET the attitude of amerimutts.Be it monkey asscracks like kissinger or nixon and manwhores like biden all cumskins worthless cocksuckers keep yelling shit against our interests every now and then . Ever heard the Russians utter anything remotely derogatory about any of our leaders? Putin is Bharat’s best bet in the coming years for a variety of reasons, not least of which is the instability plaguing the amerimutt body politic. Though Donald Trump is outwardly an ally, it would be churlish to deny that his mercurial temperament makes him unreliable .

Above all , Russia’s unequivocal support for Bharat’s decision to change the status of Jammu and Kashmir and accepting our stand that it was “carried out within the framework of the Constitution of the Republic of India”. Oppurtunists amerimutt official response was muted only because of our interests converging not because of natural partners. Amerimutts dont make allies they make vassals. But the prospects of QUAD2.0 also look promising and WE must have a frank word with Russia. They are next on the Chinese hit list. Already a warning shot has been fired over their brow with Chinese claims on Vladivostok. Further, Russia has a long border with China. With its miniscule population Russia cannot defend its huge territories from Chinese expansionism. If put in correct perspective Russia will see the light.
 

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